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[David]

  Am I thinking from a completely carnal point of view?

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Eric,

What makes the entire bible a parable is that even physical/historical events recorded have a deeper spiritual meaning that is not always (in fact rarely) easy to discern. Look at Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar for just one example.

There are absolute parables which are not literal but if we read the scriptures as only a history book we are missing out on the true purpose and meaning of His Word.

Peace,

Joe

[OBrenda]

Just curious at what age did they marry at this time?
13 years old?

These virgins may have been very young, and years from being given in marriage?

This would make one think differently about it being rape.

[Sozo]

Whoa!

Falcon, I see no need to lock this thread.  Eric is only giving input like you.  Anyway, let me clarify something with you...are you saying that these events that you listed are all parables and none are historical? 

Joe, I understand that literal things that took place in the bible have a spiritual meaning.  However, does that mean we completely disregard the historicity of it?  The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not only reading the bible as a history book.  However, history is part of the book and their is truth in the history also.  If we disregard the history, then where would that leave us on Jesus and the resurrection.  The story of our Savior is obviously spiritual, but without the factual history of it....then we are indeed pathetic people.

[ericsteven]

Joe,

I know precisely what you and others mean when you say the entire Bible is a parable.  And I agree with you.  Perhaps I didn't make that clear, even though I told you precisely how I choose to describe the events of the Old Testament:  They are actual historical events that God planned and brought to fruition in order to provide examples to us of moral and spiritual truths.  You may see it differently, but nothing in that statement contradicts what I believe you mean when you say the Bible is a parable.

My point - and again, obviously I didn't make it clear – was that based upon Ray's quote “No parable is literal or historical,” which many people may have read, as well as the general connotation that comes along with the word ‘parable,’ that they are fictional stories used to convey a spiritual truth as in the case of many if not all of Jesus’ parables, there are some who may be confused by what is being said.  This is obvious in the fact that James (Sozo) asked the question, “Are these stories actual historical events that took place?”

Also, I believe in meeting people where they are at spiritually, and I honestly don't think Ray would disagree with me.  What I mean by that is what I've heard many times from others, “You don't feed steak to an infant.”  In other words, the spiritual truths of God can not be understood by a carnal babe and we certainly don't force these truths  down their throats.  So we meet them where they are at.  I hope James does not insinuate that I am calling him a carnal babe in Christ and that he can't understand spiritual truths, but obviously he was not responding to all of the attempted spiritual explanations being given. 

I attempted to give him answers to some of his questions based on what the straightforward Scriptures and words in the surrounding text said as well as some understanding from a reputable reference book.  Are there higher, spiritual truths to be learned from this event in the Bible? Yes, of course there are.  But my intent was to try and get James to start paying attention to what is said in the entirety of the historical narrative, not just in that one passage that he quoted at the outset of the thread.  For instance, Moses told the people to purify themselves and their captives outside the gate.  When we understand that purification does not entail rape and sexual gratification, at least in the sphere of God's law to the Israelites, we can already answer James’s questioning of whether the virgins were raped or not.  There's no need in my mind to get into spiritual truths yet until questions like this are answered from a historical and straightforward Scriptural way.

And obviously from his response, it helped.  He is now going back to the Scriptures to study more for himself.  And that is what is hoped for:  that people will go back to the Scriptures and God will begin to open their eyes to see the deeper hidden spiritual truths, now that they understand what is going on in the literal and historical.

I pray that I have been able to express what I was trying to do in regards to James’s questions clearly and effectively.  If not, please let me know, either in this thread or by PM.  I am very open to constructive criticism and would like to know where others feel my thinking is unscriptural. 

God bless,

Eric

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Eric,

You did an outstanding job of clarifying your point, we have no disagreement Brother!

Peace,

Joe

[carol v]

This is a fascinating thread so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on the actual historical aspects of scripture. It is hard to sort out still because I don't like to pick and choose -- either it's all historical or it's all parable -- but that becomes impossible. I don't believe the days in Genesis are 6 literal days but then that's when I start picking and choosing -- right there in chapter 1. Whew.

Here's how I explain it to the best of my ability. First, yes it all really happened in the natural:

1Co 15:46 (KJV)  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The events in the OT all happened first in the natural and now we understand them in the spiritual. Some are very, very, very hard to understand especially given what God has shown us about His sovereignty. It doesn't really matter if Moses was "commanded" by God -- it happened, it's in there, it's hard to comprehend the horrendous violence throughout the OT. Judges 19 is a particularly hard one for me.

Ecc 1:13 (CLV) I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God has just told us why this evil existed in the OT and still exists today. But all these things that happened in the OT to be written down were for a special purpose:

(ASV)  Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

As Joe said, they are now types and shadows. First they were natural and now they are spiritual -- for our admonition -- "our" is those given eyes to see.

But then all of the above does not really explain why I start picking and choosing right there at Genesis 1 to believe in 6 spiritual days as opposed to 6 literal days -- well truth be known, I really have no clue. I may be inclined to believe the 6 spiritual days but that doesn't make it so. Just because I want to believe that scientists have some foundation for big bang, etc. -- well, maybe they do and maybe they don't. Paul tells me that the wisdom of man is complete foolishness to God -- and that includes my wisdom, your wisdom and every scientist ever born.

And we know that God sends strong delusion so even believing in this scientific wisdom of man in the first place could be one huge delusion.

I know that it may sound fantastic to believe that Eve actually talked to a snake or Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a whale BUT this sounds like a hollywood movie -- a ghost came and impregnated this virgin woman who gave birth to this impossibly perfect being who was then turned back into spirit when he died. Oh, this guy's going to save all mankind in the process.

So I can't deny that fantastic sounding stuff actually happened without denying Christ's resurrection -- but then again do I absolutely know for a fact that Joshua actually knocked down those walls historically and literally the way it is written in God's word -- well, no.

So I have to fall back on the dozens of scripture refering to God's wisdom and God's will and God's word as a mystery and a secret.

1Co 2:7 (CLV) but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory,

I have been given eyes and ears to understand what it means for me while reading it now in 2008 -- it's all spirit. Fundamentally, it doesn't matter if every single thing happened historically or not. It's spirit. Now this certainly doesn't make the part of my brain that wants to put everything into a little logical box very happy. It certainly makes it hard to get into a debate with others about whether these things are true or not.

Conclusion -- this is an evil world and the OT reflects that. God has revealed to me His sovereignty in this so I can't blame man's free will, Moses or the devil. But God has also revealed that He has a glorious purpose behind this evil experience and my small little brain can only see some of that mystery.

And yes, I realize that I'm picking and choosing in saying it is all historical fact but some details might be spiritual parable -- but it's a MYSTERY DADGUMMIT AND JUST LEAVE ME ALONE

[Falconn003]

carol v

AMEN

With what you posted Carol and hitting the nail on the head.  WHAM !!!, nothing need more to be said....

MAN i love this FORUM !!! 

Rodger

[Sozo]

The question I posed when I started this thread was sincere and no ill intent was involved.  I did nothing to warrant the sarcastic responses that I received from Falcon.  Falcon, please except my apologies if I unknowingly offended you in some way.

I will now gracefully bow out.

[mharrell08]

The question I posed when I started this thread was sincere and no ill intent was involved.  I did nothing to warrant the sarcastic responses that I received from Falcon.  Falcon, please except my apologies if I unknowingly offended you in some way.

I will now gracefully bow out.

This is an interesting thread with great comments throughout.

Sozo, I don't believe Falcon meant any ill-will. It wasn't you, per se, that he was being sarcastic with, just the thought of looking at the scriptures from a historical standpoint. Almost like how Ray is sarcastic in his emails. Not with the person but their Babylonian doctrines or idols of the heart.

Hope this helps,

Marques

[OBrenda]

Rodger,

If you check out this website that was created by Sozo, Jason.
I think you have assumed to much into his intentions!

http://www.sozoproductions.org/videos/index.htm



God Bless You Carol!

Brenda

[dewey]

   Hi, this is Dewey & Paula

We have read all of the contents of this post and we just want to share with you what has been given to us through this post.  All of you have some very good questions and explanations!  What this comes down to,it has been good conversation.  At this point, we would like to say that we feel that we just have a taste of the spiritual.  Our  minds could not stand the full aspect of even of one of God's truths- it would be like lookin' in the face of God and you all know the consequences of that!

We believe that we are just scratchin' the surface - that's all that he gives us believers, FAITH just enough faith.  

Joe, you are absolutely right - history repeats itself.  There is nothing new under the sun (the scriptures say ).And Roger there is only one messenger of life.  And only then through faith and grace, you come up with some very good scriptures.  And they are scriptures that we as cardinal beings are allowed to gleen all as possible from what we have been given by Our Lord, through you.

I think your answer on the former post was excellent.  I did not see an insult,  but merely a correction and that's all we' ve got to say about that.  

And Dave in Tennesse:  I have to say that Moses may have spoiled the whole plan; but I have to say if he did, God directed his steps as per scripture.  If that answered one of your questions, it answered all of them.

I would like to reaffirm to everyone - if it has happened, it has been God's will.  How do we know that it's been God's will?  Check this out - an example of Jesus proclaiming to the public how to pray:  "OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME YOUR KINGDOM COME YOUR WILL BE DONE"  check it out folks, is the first time that Jesus declares that man doesn't have free will - or the second?  

All these words mean very little to our salvation.  What does mean something is faith and grace.  When you're given faith, in my case, and Paula's case, you begin to see things that weren't here before because Father has made something out of nothing - he's good for that!

And with that folks this is what we have to say - faith is hard to come by.  If you have the faith that Jesus died and was resurrected that much has been revealed to you by the Father.  I say that because there are so many billions of people that don't believe what we've been shown.  

Read all the scripures that you can - memorize all that you can.  They're little proofs of the tidbits that our Father gives us.  How strange - just enough.

Love y'all

In the Spirit of Jesus Christ we go out on this limb 'cause that's where the fruit's at

Dewey & Paula

[WhoAmI]

Hey Falconn003,

 I love this line you used..."Undoing the indoctrination of man.." That says a lot to me.

  It also explains this process that is taking place in this very forum and about this very subject. God help us through this.

Jeff

[rjsurfs]

I'm pretty disappointed in the postings of this thread. 

Pat yourself on the back for thinking you gave some profound spiritual answer that we all just had to hear when in fact I believe you did a good job of using the sword to slash at Sozo (Jason).

I am sure for those that God blesses with truth... he also blesses with mercy.

[Kat]

I have 3 girls, all grown now.  Starting when they were pretty young I would try not to interfer (anymore than I absolutely had to) when they had squabbles.  The reason for this was that I knew that they had to learn how to work things out for themselves and to get along with each other.  I was always right there to monitor the situation as the oldest was 6 yrs older than the youngest.  It would have been a lot easier to have just made them stop fussing and go to their rooms.  But my thinking was if they learned how to work things out with each others while they were growing up, that it would help them in all their relationships later on. 

Well as I said they are grown and I have to admit they all have a wonderful relationship with each other.  I'm not trying to say that by my own great parenting that this was accomplished, not at all without God and I prayed a lot. 

But the point is we need to learn how to get along with each other here.  Hopefully the discussions on these threads will help us to learn more about how we should be considerate of one another, newer and older members alike.  Are we exhorting/encouraging one another?  Are we being a productive member of the body?  This is what we are to be learning.  The mods should only have to step in when things get out of hand, which actually rarely happens.

Heb 10:24-25  And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

mercy, peace and love
Kat