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Sirach

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Question
« on: September 06, 2008, 09:23:56 AM »

I have read somewhere on BT or the forum an explanation on God having two wills....a stated will and another will, wich if not probably understood can be interpreted the wrong way...

Like.. the Lord commands us to repent, but we have no free will to repent. Does anybody understand what i mean....and where i can find this article

Robin
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: Question
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2008, 02:38:04 PM »

I like that question....if God commands us to (fill in blank), but we can or can't (fill in blank) unless he causes us to.....then?????

Actually I think I have read articles, e mails or forum on that.  Hopefully someone will remember.
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Stevernator

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Re: Question
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 02:49:38 PM »

Hi Robin,
I could be mistaken but I think it could be Ray talking about how theologians say God has 2 wills to rationalize scripture like 1 tim 2:4 which says God will have all men to be saved. The theologians say that this is only a weak will and will not come to pass; so that is why it is different from his ultimate will. They use these ideas to fit scripture with their doctrine of eternal torment.
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ericsteven

  • Guest
Re: Question
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 02:55:18 PM »

Here's an excerpt from 'The Myth of Free Will Exposed-Part A' that I think may address what you're looking for.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

WHO HAS RESISTED GOD’S WILL?

So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn’t fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of God’s plan:

"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand God’s plan and will and those who do not.

After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God’s plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God’s will, will be done in His time.

So back to Paul’s questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. That’s right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:

"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).
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carol v

  • Guest
Re: Question
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2008, 06:27:14 PM »

Ray discusses God's absolute will and God's relative will in his letter to Dr. Kennedy.
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Sirach

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Re: Question
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2008, 08:44:24 PM »

Thank you all for your responce...Carol...that was what i was looking for, Gods relative and Gods absolute will. It is in kennedy2 installment at about 3/4 down. Is their more teaching available about this subject to anyones knowledge ?

Robin
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Question
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2008, 10:53:03 PM »


Hi Robin,

Here is an email that gives a bit more about God's will.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1525.0.html ----

Dear Alex:

We must distinguish between God's "will" as a noun meaing His ultimate purpose and destination of things, and God's "plan" to achieve His "will."  It is God's will that mankind live righteously, but it is His purpose, plan, and intention that they first live UNrighteously.  The first is a necessary precursor to achieve the second. God commands men to do the impossible.  This too is a necessary precursor for man's learning. We must be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will, before we will ever repent of our weakness and wickedness.  And understand that God does not force us to sin. We sin voluntarily from our hearts, and in so doing it is only right and good that we should be punished for sinning. Our hearts and minds must be converted from what they are into the Image of God's Son.

God be with you,

Ray

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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Question
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2008, 10:55:41 PM »

Good post Kat. Iit also help Sirach with his other post on traslation.

beloved
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WhoAmI

  • Guest
Re: Question
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2008, 04:49:06 AM »

One of the things I like about Ray's writings is that you can also learn a lot about how mankind thinks. Some of the things are just silly.  :P

I remember reading Ray's writings on the will. It made me think of a time when I seen someone up town where I live and I told someone else I had seen this person at a gas station and I waved at them. This person I was then telling told me "how can that be?..He told me that he was going to Wal-Mart." I was dumbfounded! The guy can't stop at the gas station on the way?  ???  He can still be going to Wal-Mart! The fact that he stopped at the gas station on the way does not mean he is not going to Wal-Mart like he said.  ::)  Anyhow it was funny.  ;D
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OBrenda

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Re: Question
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 10:40:52 AM »

 ;D lol @ Jeff...

Pretzel Logic
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Sirach

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Re: Question
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2008, 11:59:48 AM »

Thanks all for helping me out

Robin
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Sirach

  • Guest
Re: Question
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2008, 01:00:45 PM »

Hmmm...i think i understand now.

The question itself is indeed blaphemous, becos it is a kind of question where we call God to the stand.

Paul makes very very clear that that is a no go area...asking questions like that is crossing a border wich is not for mankind to be crossed.

God is not going to explain His plan's, His purposes, His means exactly i guess. Maybe God is saying: I am the Potter...You are the clay...Trust ME. ( and i do...becos He makes me  :)) Thank you Lord.

kind regards all

Robin
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WhoAmI

  • Guest
Re: Question
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2008, 04:55:58 PM »

 
 It is much better to question and learn than to following anything blindly. I like to remind myself with a simple statement. It is "God understands." I have a friend who is so riddled with religious guilt and he is always in a state of anxiety because he thinks he may say the wrong thing, ask the wrong thing etc. and it all pertains to him seeking God. He left his church but the church has not left him yet.

Jeff
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