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[winner08]

I was going through my Bible and marking out the verses that are not in the Sinaitices codex. It is said that this is the most thoroughly old and new testamenttexts. If this is correct then there are alot of words and even whole verses that should not be in many Bibles. Where Mark has Jesus with His last breath saying forgiving them father for they know not what they do. Now to me this was or is a very important verse in my bible. Here is Jesus showing His true love for mankind. I mean come on, these people are responsible for His beaten ,whipped and nailed to a stake like the worst criminal in the history of the world.(at that time). Yet He has so much love for them He ask His Father to forgive them. Now I find out that this is not in the original text.  .What do y'all think about these omitted verses? Does it really matter? Am I making a mound out of a mole hill?

Darren

[Heidi]

Hi there Darren...I am with you.  I really puzzles me as well.  Ray said in his paper on prayer that this was really the only prayer that Jesus uttered "Father forgive them....."  I am now baffled and I would love some clarification.  Surely this is what Jesus said on the cross   It makes perfect sence and since the bible is the inspiration from God, it rings true in my heart and mind.

Heidi

[winner08]

Yes, it sounds perfect. Jesus showing His love and forgivness all the way to the end. I just read John's account of the death and he says at the end Jesus just said "it is finnish" then died.Then in Luke he says Jesus said "Father into Your hands I commit My spirit". Matthew said that Jesus cried out with a loud voice saying "My God My God why have You Forsaken Me"? Then Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit. Now out of the four of them only in Marks account does Jesus said "forgive them Father for they know not what they do". It seems to me that the writer who added this wanted to make Jesus sound more divine at that moment. The other three makes Jesus seem more human, especially Matt. I can see Jesus on the stake dying and crying out in agony my God my God why have You forsaken Me. I mean after all He went through and then getting nailed to the cross. So what does this mean? Maby nothing. Like I said maby I am just making a mound out of a moll hill.

Darren

Darren

[Heidi]

I don't think you are making a mountain out of a molehill at all.  A part of me would like to think that Jesus said it....maybe the carnal part of me because it sounds good and right.  Is it so bad to think this?  Love never fails is all I know.....

[Stevernator]

I was shocked to see the story of the woman caught in adultery in the list of spurious scriptures. It is such a treasured story.

[winner08]

Heidi, not at all. I think your right on time. You have a very loving heart. That's a great trait to have.

Darren

[winner08]

Yes Stevernator, I too think it is a treasured story.  Speaking of women in the Bible, I also notice in Mark, well that was my topic Mark 16:9-20 the whole chapture is about Jesus seen alive at the tomb site by Mary M. and the aftermath of His visits. How important is these  scriptures of Jesus life for us? If these events did not happpen then where does that leave us. The other three accounts are similar so maby this is not a big deal? Maby this is why they have four gospels instead of three. Sorry I fail to mention the part about women. In Mark when talking about there are two women in the mill or in the field and one is taken and the other is left. Well the word women is not in the original text. To me it looks like the writers that added to the scriptures are trying to make the story more interesting like the boat was already filling up, in the windstorm with Jesus. This too is not mention in the original text but after x-ing out these words and pharagraphs and read them over, the scripture is right to the point, short and sweet and very understandable. This is how I see it.

Darren

Darren

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Darren,

This is a topic that comes up from time to time and to me it is a fascinating fulfilment of a couple of OT scriptures (there are more but these should make my point).

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

Eze 17:2  Son of man, put forth a riddle and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

We are all familiar with the parables, even the concept that the entire bible is a parable, but what are the riddles?

There aren't many here that would argue that God is not sovereign over His creation, is He sovereign over His Word, the scriptures? Could it be that the additions, subtractions, misinterpretations, etc. are there to serve His purpose as well?

Consider;

1Co 1:25  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2Th 2:11  And for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The key to understanding is not man's perception or hope of some "perfect" translation, the real key is spiritual discernment, only His Spirit will open up and increase our wisdom and knowledge.

If you read Matthew and Mark you will see not very much at all written about Christ interacting with His disciples after He is risen, contrast that with Luke and John who have much to say about what transpired after our Lord rose from the dead.

Is there perhaps a riddle in this? Also, when you consider that Luke wrote Acts and John wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ (as well as 1John, 2John, 3John), they are 2 of the 3 most prolific writers of the New Testament. Interesting?

Anyway, my aim is not to teach anything or put forward my own beliefs why this might be so I only want to spur on everyone's own search for His wisdom through His Word.

Peace,

Joe     

[AK4]

Hi all,

I felt that way about Rev 20:5

Re 20:5 - Show Context
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Whats in parenthesis isnt in the codex either and it had me searching for is there one or two resurrections. 

Joe you are so right because that riddle of (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) Doesnt fit the rest of scripture.  I found in all the scriptures i was able to find that there is only one resurrection.  I may be wrong though.  Anyhow that was/is a great riddle to me. Im still trying to figure out what is meant then by-- This is the first resurrection.  I have an idea, but i cant fully support it with scripture.

 I think it makes the bible even more interesting when we search out those riddles and find the answers.  Praise be to God

[JeffH]

Hi Darren,

This is a topic that comes up from time to time and to me it is a fascinating fulfilment of a couple of OT scriptures (there are more but these should make my point).
Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.
Eze 17:2  Son of man, put forth a riddle and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;
We are all familiar with the parables, even the concept that the entire bible is a parable, but what are the riddles?

There aren't many here that would argue that God is not sovereign over His creation, is He sovereign over His Word, the scriptures? Could it be that the additions, subtractions, misinterpretations, etc. are there to serve His purpose as well?
Consider;
1Co 1:25  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The key to understanding is not man's perception or hope of some "perfect" translation, the real key is spiritual discernment, only His Spirit will open up and increase our wisdom and knowledge.

If you read Matthew and Mark you will see not very much at all written about Christ interacting with His disciples after He is risen, contrast that with Luke and John who have much to say about what transpired after our Lord rose from the dead.

Is there perhaps a riddle in this? Also, when you consider that Luke wrote Acts and John wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ (as well as 1John, 2John, 3John), they are 2 of the 3 most prolific writers of the New Testament. Interesting?

Anyway, my aim is not to teach anything or put forward my own beliefs why this might be so I only want to spur on everyone's own search for His wisdom through His Word.

Peace,

Joe     

Joe,

I sent an email to Ray a short while back about this.  It occurred to me that (and this is simplifying) Scripture can be read two ways - wrong or right - but either way it makes sense.  All the things the church erroneously believes, the things I used to believe, make sense.  The error in understanding is still reasonable until your eyes are opened.  Once that happens, you can clearly see the difference. 

While we're deceived, the things we read still flow and form a comprehensive picture of God and His creation.  The Bible says "Lake of Fire" and there are so many other verses that support that, that it's fairly easy to go down that path.  The error in our translations has to be supportable and it appears that our Creator made it so.  The way Scripture was translated diverts from the truth, but seemingly, perfectly so.

If the KJV said that Moses was a bunny, it would never be taken seriously.  The deception in the translations is subtle enough that when read without help from God, but rather assistance from well-meaning clergy or on our own, is still believable.

I think you're correct that the errors, subtractions, additions, etc. (I would say) are perfectly written and serve a very grand, intentional purpose.

What an awesome God we serve!!!!!!!!!!

I had a conversation with an atheist/scientist many years ago and at it's conclusion I realized that there's exactly as much evidence that God exists as there is that He doesn't.  It's my impression that our universe is "comically" huge.  It's so huge (or so configured) that we could never reach it's boundaries.  Why would God create a universe that big?  Nobody can answer that except our Creator, but I don't believe in coincidences.  Everything created (I believe) is perfectly tuned. 

I also had a conversation with my dad this past weekend and he mentioned how the smallest particles reflect the largest.  Spheres, revolving and rotating in paths around each other like our solar system on one end of the scale, and atoms, neutrons and electrons on the other end.  Fascinating.

Jeff

[carol v]

Just another viewpoint to add to some already great posts -- and I agree that this verse in Luke, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do", and the story of the woman at the well were both shockers to me.

While the Luke verse certainly sounds like something we think Christ would say, I think if we look at it closely we would find that it actually contradicts scripture.

Here is one thing that Christ said about those same people (about ourselves, me):

Joh 9:41  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

We must admit our blindness, empty ourselves, come into complete humility, recognize our total dependence and need for God, and so on -- because until we do these things "our sin remaineth."

We know that all of these men, indeed all of us, have the mark of the beast and that mark cannot be overcome simply by God's forgiveness. It must be fought, battled, burned, destroyed and many other verbs to be purified before it can fully "see" the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Luke verse, athough beautifully written, is basically a shortened version of the sinner's prayer -- kind of like trying to get off the hook with a judge without the jail time -- and that's where I think the spurious author's motives lie.

Simply put -- scripture teaches repentance as a necessary part of forgiveness.

Just my humble opinion

[Richard D]

Hello and God bless all, Winner 08, I’m sure I’m out of my league here. I have learned many things from Ray’s writings in such a short time but if its alright to give my opinion and that’s all it is, I have no credentials and I’m not a teacher but after reading about what you had said about Mark 16; 9-20 not being in the original writings, I thought to myself maybe Jesus did not say forgive them they know not what they do but to me he said that with his life.

[Deborah-Leigh]

We have to get back to basics.

God is creating us in His image to know good from evil.

We experience evil as that most necessary part of our process of becoming like God. It is all God's work and non of our own. It is all the faith of Christ who has overcome the world ahead of us and to whom we are to follow and will follow with the benevolence, plan and will of God. God will have His way and His way to to have children in His image. God will succeed.

As we come to understand we are the beast, we begin to walk into that very purpose foreknown by God that is written for each and every one of us. All will repent. All shall see the Beast. All shall learn that God is God.

This topic reminds me of how the phrase.... That God so loved the World.... is mistranslated. Just read Ray's teaching on love to see the hidden, concealed, disguised meaning in this most inappropriate representation of God....so loving the world!  Huh! How can God so love the world when we are admonished that to love the world means that we have not the love of the Father in us?

Christiandom has much to answer for! Even that is in the Plan of God.

Arc