> General Discussions
Does anyone have doubts?
Jackie Lee:
I really don't expect to be in the first resurrection, however I do want to endure as little pain as possible so I struggle forward hoping to have few stripes.
If I make the first resurrection well then great.
I know what ever I will be ok.
I don't want to go out and sin more, my desire is to sin less.
Our desire is to be more pleasing to God.
Dave in Tenn:
Hi Decky. I have prayed for you and will again.
If you haven't already (even if you have) listen to Ray's sermon on Can We lose God's Spirit and Aeonian life. I think there's a jewel in there just for you. I know it was there for me. If you don't find it, we'll talk again.
Kat:
Hi Ricky,
--- Quote ---I need the question answered please, How is it possible to HONESTLY love God from the Heart without free will, or is that just a choice.
--- End quote ---
Here is a section from the transcript 'Free Will is an Oxymoron.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5154.0 ---------
Eph 2:3 “Among whom also we all (how many? ALL - including the great apostle Paul) had our conversation (behavior-conduct) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others.”
Excuse me, but what happened to everybody's free will in all this? By nature we’re
“the children of wrath.” But supposedly only if love comes from this free will, which by nature….is wrath. How is that good? If you love somebody through free will, that means you loved them for no reason at all. Isn’t it better to love somebody for a reason? Isn’t it better that we love God for reasons, that we have reasons for loving Him? Guess what those reasons are? They are CAUSES! But there isn’t any causes in ‘free,’ so it does away with the free will concept completely and totally.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, (no) or the leopard its spots? (no)
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Maybe this email will help too.
http://bible-truths.com/email18.htm ---------------------------
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him-- He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL." Oh really? And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires? NO IT CAN'T! And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine. The natural mind is totally incapable of loving God:
"For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
It all starts with God, not with us:
"We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first; he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments; he cannot please God; he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9). And therefore God's ways will justify His means. The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
And so here is the answer to your question:
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave his such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever realize the marvelous highest of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grant to you "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.
God be with you,
Ray
Dave in Tenn:
"How is it possible to HONESTLY love God from the Heart without free will, or is that just a choice. Ricky"
You might turn the question around and ask 'how is it possible to honestly love God with free will.' The carnal mind is enmity with God. It's not natural for us to love God. Nobody can know God enough to love Him except He drags them to that. Once He does, we find 'cause' to love God. It's His Grace AND His faith that allows us to know Him at all.
You accept, I'm assuming, that it's God who does the chosing, the calling, and the saving. It's not your will that does that, free or otherwise. We are to continue in the way we began.
You accept, I'm assuming, that the scripture gives many clear statements of the sovereignty of God over the will of man. There are many, many examples from Pharoah to Judas to Paul of how God limits our choices to the one He knows we will make. I've had a hard time, even with this understanding, putting myself into 'fellowship' with these examples, yet there they are. As they are, so am I.
We can see the hand of God working in the past--even our own pasts--to bring things to the point they are now. We can at least imagine being able to fathom that God made us our sex, our race, our nationality, our heredity, our afflictions and diseases, our talents, our intelligence and are able to give thanks for all of it, even if some of it has caused us problems and all of it limits our choices. Yet, we sometimes cannot accept that God continues to determine things through our actions, the actions of others, into the situations in which we find ourselves in this life...and that He will continue this until His purpose for making us is fulfilled.
It was enough at first for me to 'accept' this without much understanding. There are two practical things that have grown my understanding. One is a small statememnt made by Ray in an audio that encouraged us to 'Pray like it all depended on God, and live like it all depended on us'. That's a stop-gap, but it gave me considerable insight in how a person is supposed to live with this knowledge. The second has been this forum and mostly Ray himself where I see people believing the scripture concerning the will of God ACTIVE by choice, volunteering to get smaller so that He may grow larger.
I'm not through struggling either. And there are others still trying to come to understanding. One day we may figure out that our puny will cannot thwart the purpose of God and that we are not in control of even our little part of the universe. :)
aqrinc:
GOD ALWAYS ANSWER'S our PRAYER'S; HE Does Not Always Give us What (we ask for). HE ALWAYS GIVE'S us (What IS RIGHT).
Geo.
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