Accountability.

[Richard D]

In the l.o.f. series I learned that God created evil and that God is responsible for every sin from Adam and Eve to present day. I understand that God Himself is not evil but uses evil to bring about His will for the good of all.

I also understand that our will is not outside of God's will or that our will can not go contrary to God's will. However we are held accountable none the less even though God brings the cause that causes our will to do His will because we are subjected to the will of God.

So, One is accountable to God for any and all sins committed while being subjected to vanity by God in the first place not that we were willing but by God's will for His propose but has also given us hope too.

Now accountability means being responsible to somebody or for something
being. Now knowing eventually everyone will be saved as this is God's will where does ones accountability come into play.

What I'm trying to figure out is this, (the wages of sin is death) or (the soul that sins will die). So is this the only payment concerning one's accountability for sin. So in other words I say we pay for our sins simply by dying. But in order to be resurrected our sins have to be paid by Christ or there could be no hope left for us.

So if God says to me, if I sin I will die and I sin, then I have satisfied Gods judgment or justice once I die, So then I have paid the price God demands. Now Jesus died for the whole world and especially those who believe.

So because Jesus died for my sins too is this what allows God to resurrect me after death. But if Jesus did not pay the penalty for death on everyone's behalf then death would be without end. Is this right or its how one should view it?     

[mharrell08]

Hello Richard,

Here is an excerpt from Ray's emails:

Thank you for your email and question.

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.

1. People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins.   They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy.  The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF.  God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering.  Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

2. We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS.  Think of sin as DIRT.  It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

Sincerely,

Ray




And here is an excerpt from Ray's LOF series pt. 2:

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:.

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn't even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve's eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took ['For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...'] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

The good news is that all of our suffering is for a grand purpose and will ultimately bring huge rewards. Just two verses before, Paul tells us how God subjected the whole creation to these many evils and he gives us this comforting thought:

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time ['groaning and travailing in pain together until now' Ver 22] are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY which shall be revealed in US" (Ver. 18).




I would recommending reading the 2nd installment again [http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html] to find your answer as Ray is a much better teacher than I or most here.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[hillsbororiver]

So because Jesus died for my sins too is this what allows God to resurrect me after death. But if Jesus did not pay the penalty for death on everyone's behalf then death would be without end. Is this right or its how one should view it?     

Bingo!

Yes Richard, the penalty would be annihilation, dead and always dead, Christ is Life, in Him we have the promise of perfection and immortality.

Joh 20:31  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Amazing how often Romans 8 has come up today)

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Excellent response Marques,

I was typing as you were posting.....

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Richard,

Here is an excerpt from Ray second letter to Kennedy, it has a really good section on God being responsible.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm --------------

RESPONSIBILITY

Not only are all the billions of heathens who never heard the gospel not responsible for their own salvation, but neither are we responsible for our salvation either. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God hold man responsible for anything. This is just another man-made doctrine that clashes with the Scriptures.

We can use the word "responsible" in a relative sense, such as: "It is a man's responsibility to provide for his family." We all know what the word means. But even if this man doesn't provide for his family, God will hold him accountable not responsible.
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When a minor (a child) commits a crime, even the unjust courts of our land do not hold him responsible. Is his crime simply overlooked? No. He must give an account for his actions. He is accountable. He might be the victim of a broken home, with a drunkard father, a prostitute mother, drug-hooked sisters, and gang-member brothers. Thus, he is not considered responsible. Nonetheless, he is still accountable.

"Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an account concerning it in the day of judging" (Matt. 12:36).

"For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God ... Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God" (Rom. 14:11-12).

Read the dozens of scriptures where we are likened not only to "children," but to "little children." God is dealing with mankind as minors. He holds them accountable, but nowhere does God hold man responsible. Show me one Scripture.

The church can only see the relative in God's word. They fail to see that God is behind everything in the "absolute."

" ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).

The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.
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These inspired words of the Apostle Paul are so clear that one has to be downright stubborn as to the truth, not to believe them:

"Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?' O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:18-21)

God said He raised Pharaoh up for the express purpose of displaying His power in him (Ver. 17). It is an historical and Scriptural fact that God did this to Pharaoh. Ver. 18 then states that, consequently then, God is either "merciful," or "hardens" anyone He wants to. And whosoever they are have nothing to say about God's doing so.

Well, of course, if one is hostile against God and His word, his retort to this statement of Paul's would then be:

"WHY, THEN, IS HE STILL BLAMING?" (Ver. 19)

How can God hold people accountable for their sins when it was "He" [God] who brought about their condition? At least Paul's detractors had the sense to realize that if what Paul was saying is true, then they are solely at God's mercy (not their own ability) to ever change their condition, because their next statement is:

" ... for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?" (Ver. 19).

God intends for men to go against His will (that's how men become lost so that God can then save them), but no one, absolutely NO ONE, has ever gone against God's INTENTION! Hey, don't get angry with me - I'm just quoting the Scriptures.

Notice that Paul does not even deign to answer such carnal questioning of God's wisdom. His response is:

"O MAN! WHO ARE YOU, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded WILL NOT protest to the molder, 'Why do YOU MAKE me thus'?" (Ver. 20).

God is GOD, and He does what He pleases. God "pleases" to have many Sons. God "pleases" to save ALL humanity and ALL in the heavens (Eph. 11:10-11, Col. 1:20, I Cor. 15:22, 28). Who are we to question God's process? Since God is both loving and wise and also possesses all power, why should anyone question God's ability to accomplish His own Will?
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mercy, peace andlove
Kat

[Richard D]

Kat, Today I was meditating on these things and ask the Lord, why people must die if you paid the price. Then it was understood within me that the soul that sins it must die or the wages of sin is death.

O.K fine, I sinned, so I must die then, well, there is nothing I can do about it, so when I die I paid that which God required of me, which is death. So I say fine Lord, but I paid for my sins then, and you did not.

So, now it's understood within me that Christ also paid for my sins as well. So I sinned and I must die but in my dying I must remain dead from age to age, that's the price God demands.

So I say, O.K. When I die I'm dead and the dead know nothing. See, now in the grave there is no knowledge or pain or tears or any suffering. Well, while I'm alive I need God,

God provides me with the necessities of life. So I thank God and praise God because he sustains my life while I live and God provides for me my needs.

So, Jesus paid for my sins too you know, well, staying dead is not and option, I too will hear His voice one day and come forth from my grave. My life is difficult, life is difficult.

You know, I expressed more than once to God that when I die leave me be please. This was before I read Ray's papers, you see, I was trying to elude hell's pain. I believe Ray now and not the first things I was originally taught.

Ray makes so much sense to me, so now the fear of death has been lifted to which I owe thanks to Ray. That's why when I first came here, I was very excited, not about life but knowing in death there is no pain or suffering, this was indeed good news to me.

You know, it seems like everyone wants to live forever, well, I can't honestly say it's my hearts desire. Yes, I love God and praise him most of the day, well its hard to not think about God you know, He's always there.

When I read you're response to me Kat, you said don't blame me that's what scripture says, Kat, I don't blame you for anything. You're a remarkable lady Kat, you are truly a blessing to this forum. The only thing I could blame you for is the love I see you operate with in every response you responded to.

You know Kat, sometimes, God does not let and awesome person see they are awesome, its true you know.

Thank you for responding to my post as it's always appreciated. In His Love. Richard

[aqrinc]

How can we be born again if we do not die first, the scriptures tells this same story over and over.

John 3:3:
Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I Peter 1:23:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and stays for ever.

Matthew 25:34:
Then shall the King say to them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Acts 26:18:
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Hebrews:1 13-14
13-But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool?
14-Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

George.

[Richard D]

George.

You have me thinking now. Prior to reading Ray's papers and being apart of this forum with my belief in eternal damnation I pleaded with God to leave me dead when I died.

I also remember asking God to just plainly show me the truth too. God obviously cause me to think in this way.

After reading you're response I started thinking, yes this must be symbolic of dying to self. You know if I'm willing to be dead then I'm willing to be dead.

It's strange, I'm seeing this request in a different light. The meaning of my feeling is not literal but symbolic.

                                          Thank you George. In His Love, Richard.

[Kat]

Hi Richard,

This part of the article 'HELL Part E--HADES & THE SECOND DEATH' no. 16 in the LOF series should help you understand 'dying to self.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."

For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see. But there is still an enigma about this verse that we will cover a little later.

GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT

As a young man I used to think, horrors of horrors, God is going to throw people into a lake of fire which will be their SECOND death! It all seemed so frightful and final. Little did I know that we are all destined for some form of this same lake of fire/second death/judgment. Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.

It's all in Rom. 8:13:

"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

Paul puts people into two options (based on God's foreknowledge):

OPTION ONE is for the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because "it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

OPTION TWO is for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).

"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[aqrinc]

My Brother Richard,

Here are some more Scriptures that address the accountability and GOD'S LOVE for us.

(Christ The Propitiation) not a kind of but (THE)

Galatians 2:20:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

John 3:16:
For God so loved (LOVES) the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever (who-so-ever) believes (Faitheth) in him should not perish, but have everlasting (eonian) life.

II Timothy 1:7:
For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

I John 3:1:
Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not.

I John 3:2:
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I John 4:10:
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

To GOD Be The Glory,

Geo.