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[Ricky]

Hello all,  This has me a bit confused and it has something to do a little bit with what Ray teaches. Ray says that the god of the church is Satan, but the Cross belongs to the church and the bible. Al Qaeda says they plan on more and bigger attacks on The god of the Cross. Al Qaeda believes they have god and the cross has Satan. So who does this cross belong to if it goes with the church, it sounds like they have always know something we haven't. Their are only certain people here that can explain things to me in a way that I can understand and I like that. Sure hope they can help me out on this one.
    Bless you all.     Ricky    

[indianabob]

Wow Ricky,

I hardly know where to start.

There are so many ways a person could respond that might help OR might confuse the issue even more.

My suggestion would be to give your message some more thought and write back with more detail.
What exactly are you concerned about?  Which article of Ray Smith's are you referring to in your comment about the church of Satan?  Why are you thinking that Al Qaeda is of concern?

I don't want to seem evasive, but I don't want to answer without understanding the facts.

Perhaps additional information will lead us to some interesting discussions.
Please write back and fill in some additional details.
I will be happy to read them all and try to respond.

Any one else have an idea?

Sincerely, Indiana Bob

[Ricky]

Hi Bob, Please read it again, I never said the church of satan. I need to wait for more replys and see who understands what I have said.
     Ricky
           

[Stevernator]

I think Ray is showing how scripture makes a distinction between the outward wordly "church" and the true church of the spiritually circumcised, crucified, baptised into the death of Jesus Christ. In the Bible, the cross has spiritual significance. However. the fact that the worldly church refers to the cross does not lessen the significance given to it in the NT. Who says the cross belongs to the worldly church?

So I guess you are implying that Al Qaeda is trying to attack satan or something? According to my knowledge, Muslims claim to believe in the same God as revealed in the Bible (but they claim that the scriptures were corrupted) so that would not make sense to me. I have heard USA referred to as the great devil by individuals.

[iris]

An email from Ray...

Dear Ray,
A Witness friend tells me the cross is pagan, Jesus died on a stake, would be interested in your view. enjoy your site.
Ann
 
Dear Ann:
The Greek word translated cross in the most Bibles is "stauros" and it means an upright post or pole. It has come to be called a "cross," however, it did not have a cross member. Don't get too excited over the fact that the cross is pagan, however, seeing that the use of a pole or post for impaling people is ALSO PAGAN.
God be with you,
Ray


Iris

[Samson]

An email from Ray...

Dear Ray,
A Witness friend tells me the cross is pagan, Jesus died on a stake, would be interested in your view. enjoy your site.
Ann
 
Dear Ann:
The Greek word translated cross in the most Bibles is "stauros" and it means an upright post or pole. It has come to be called a "cross," however, it did not have a cross member. Don't get too excited over the fact that the cross is pagan, however, seeing that the use of a pole or post for impaling people is ALSO PAGAN.
God be with you,
Ray


Iris

Hello Ricky,

                 I don't know exactly where your coming from, but I'll take a stab. The Cross is a piece of wood and cannot see, cannot hear, cannot feel, cannot speak(Read Psalm. 115:4-8). Many in Christendom put more emphasis towards the instrument of Christ's death, bowing, kissing and saying prayers to a piece of wood or metal. My explanation here, is not attacking whether or not someone decides to have a Crucifix or a symbol representing Christs death. The above mentioned by Ray, presented by Iris shows that whether or not Jesus died on Cross or Upright pole or a Tree, putting undue attention on the symbol to the exclusion of what it symbolizes is Idolatry. If Jesus was shot in the head instead of being nailed to the Cross, would we kiss, say prayers or elevate this instrument of death, putting more attention on that than what what Christs death represents for us.

                Whether or not Jesus died on a Cross or upright Pole(Stauros) or Tree(Xulon) is for another topic. I was a JW for twenty years and have researched this controversy and plan to present this at another time.


                 The main point that I'm attempting to provide for you is that many in Christendom are more interested in " Cross Worshipping " by their emphasis on a lifeless piece of wood, than they are towards the Sacrificial life that Jesus provided for All.

                                           Just my thoughts & Kind Regards, Samson.

[dewey]

good reply samson,

 in Christ, love yuans
 dewey

[EKnight]

Funny this whole cross subject came up because I was on my way home from a trip today and wondered if wearing a cross around my neck was pagan.  To me it's a symbol of Christ's sacrifice and I wear it to remind myself and others of that fact.  Is this pagan?  Idolatry?   

Eileen

[Richard D]

Between Ray’s paper’s and this forum I find it amazing that everything taught even the cross was a lie. I guess there is no truth out there or if there is how does one determines what truth is.

Eileen what you had wrote really has me thinking now. It’s like everything I held or believe sacred appears to have been a great job of deception. I never knew how busy Satan has been in deceiving the whole world till I was lead to Ray’s papers and this forum.

Samson, after reading you posted I realize how right you are and how the beast within us deceives us in what feels so right or even in what appears to be right. I was just thinking  how deceived I am.

You know Pontus Pilate said to Christ, “truth what is that” I guess 2000 years later we’re asking the same question but with much more deception in our times.

All I can say if not for the grace of God none of us would have any truth in our lives.

                                                                In His Love. Richard.

[OBrenda]

Funny this whole cross subject came up because I was on my way home from a trip today and wondered if wearing a cross around my neck was pagan.  To me it's a symbol of Christ's sacrifice and I wear it to remind myself and others of that fact.  Is this pagan?  Idolatry?   

Eileen

Eileen,

About wearing a cross.  There was a previous thread about paganism that was very long, and eventually locked.  It does I believe have some good comments from different perspectives.  It deals with Holidays also.  It is a touchy subject.  What I would say {just me} is it depends.  We are not under a legalistic physical law.  Just like the Sabbath, we no longer need to act out the physical, to celebrate it spiritually.

If someone wears a cross, and think it protects, or has any mystic power in its formed metal.  That is worshiping something physical/Pagan/Created.  It should be our good works/fruit that display our position in the body of Christ to others.  Labels, titles, and symbols, [have their place] but are a carnal shortcut for the mind to look no further.

A cross around someones neck can not communicate Christ or the character of the person who wears it.  I also don't think it is a Sin to wear one, or have one.  Something physical created my man has in itself no Evil or Good.  It is what man does with it.

Just my thoughts, Others may believe different.  I respect that!

[Samson]

Between Ray’s paper’s and this forum I find it amazing that everything taught even the cross was a lie. I guess there is no truth out there or if there is how does one determines what truth is.

Eileen what you had wrote really has me thinking now. It’s like everything I held or believe sacred appears to have been a great job of deception. I never knew how busy Satan has been in deceiving the whole world till I was lead to Ray’s papers and this forum.

Samson, after reading you posted I realize how right you are and how the beast within us deceives us in what feels so right or even in what appears to be right. I was just thinking  how deceived I am.

You know Pontus Pilate said to Christ, “truth what is that” I guess 2000 years later we’re asking the same question but with much more deception in our times.

All I can say if not for the grace of God none of us would have any truth in our lives.

                                                                In His Love. Richard.

Good Post Richard,

                           In my previous Post, I didn't want to give the impression that it was wrong or right to have in ones possession a Cross, picture of Jesus or any type of Religious artwork. Eileen seemed concerned about this, My point was that these pieces of artwork, at most are symbols and what they symbolize, is whats important, because the actual symbols or representations are lifeless as expressed at Psalms. 115:4-8(cannot speak, even though they have a mouth, cannot hear, even though they have ears; etc, etc) Personally, I don't have any of these things. We have to keep in mind and balance that God is Spirit(The Father) and we don't have any true Physical representation of him. With that said, we should harmonize that Scripture(John. 4:24) with the one where Paul says: An Idol is nothing." Also the Ark of the Covenant had Cherubs on it, so it doesn't necessary mean it's wrong to have symbols. I'm convinced that to kiss, bow down or direct prayers to these symbols would be inappropriate.

                                                 Kind Regards, Samson.

[Heidi]

Something physical created my man has in itself no Evil or Good.  It is what man does with it.

O'Brenda, I believe you have hit the nail on the head...it is what man does with it.  I wear a cross, not to bow down to it, or believing it has any special power etc.  It makes me feel special and maybe that is an idol of the heart.  I belief that God will lead me to take it off or not.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Love
Heidi

[OBrenda]

Something physical created my man has in itself no Evil or Good.  It is what man does with it.

O'Brenda, I believe you have hit the nail on the head...it is what man does with it.  I wear a cross, not to bow down to it, or believing it has any special power etc.  It makes me feel special and maybe that is an idol of the heart.  I belief that God will lead me to take it off or not.
Just my 2 cents worth!

Love
Heidi

And that is as it should be, my Sister!


Love the cherub on the Ark Samson, never heard that one before, that is priceless to the balance of scripture!

[Dave in Tenn]

Ricky, let me try to seperate this for communication's sake.

Revelation refers to the 'greater church' as the synagogue of Satan.  In doctrine, in practice, and in attitude they follow the adversary.  They certainly don't believe they do, but they do.

Islam (and Al Qaeda as part of that) might also be considered part of the synagogue of Satan.  I'm not 100% sure of that, but they DO bear some similarities.  They 'worship' the God of Abraham, and they recognize Jesus, but deny His authority.  In many ways, they are 'like' the church, and in many ways the 'church' is like them.  Islam (and Al Qaeda) believe they are honoring God, but they aren't.

God is using both to fulfill His Purposes.  God is God.

If Al Qaeda is warring against the 'God of the cross' it's because the cross is the commonly recognized symbol of Christianity.  This is a religious war where neither side has the Truth.  In the spiritual, since the carnal mind is enmity (deep-seated hatred or strife) with God, neither is on God's side.  Both are being used like God used Pharoah, and His use of them is much more complex than we can even know, much less understand.

These verses give me a lot of comfort when dealing with struggles between evils.

Joshua 5:13  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14  And he said, Nay (neither); but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.

I wrote a song a long time ago that put it this way:

I'm not choosing sides.
I'm taking over.
I am the Lord of Hosts.
Whose side are you on?

 

[musicman]

I look at it like this:

If I wear a hat displaying my favorite team, I am not worshipping the hat or the team.  I am just showing everybody else who my favorite team is.

When one wears a cross, they aren't neccessarily worshipping the cross or the person it is supposed to represent.  It is only telling everybody else which "god" you believe in. 

The reason I used a lower case g for god, is because wearing a cross does not tell anybody which Jesus you believe in.  Most cross wearing individuals believe in the god of babylon, or the failure.

So, the cross represents a number of different gods.  The true God requires no physical symbol.

[OBrenda]

I look at it like this:

If I wear a hat displaying my favorite team, I am not worshipping the hat or the team.  I am just showing everybody else who my favorite team is.

When one wears a cross, they aren't neccessarily worshipping the cross or the person it is supposed to represent.  It is only telling everybody else which "god" you believe in. 

The reason I used a lower case g for god, is because wearing a cross does not tell anybody which Jesus you believe in.  Most cross wearing individuals believe in the god of babylon, or the failure.

So, the cross represents a number of different gods.  The true God requires no physical symbol.

Bravo Music Man 

Dave, I enjoyed your response to Ricky, like you say it was above my pay grade!

[Ricky]

Hi Everyone, Thankyou all so much for your replies, I should say something now cos I started this mess. Dave, thankyou you almost got to maybe what I should have posted, cos this has nothing to do with wearing a cross, or idol worship, what it is made of or where it comes from, but it does have something to do with what it means, but not entirely. I read somewhere in Rays papers, and please correct me if I am wrong, Ray says that Satan is the head of the church, it is his throne. This to me means, ALL churches everywhere. If Satan is sitting on the throne in any church, what would or could be sitting next to him. A CROSS. Some christian Church's have them, all catholic Churches have 100`s of them, other religions even use them. Even some bibles have a cross on them. Go to any cemetery's and count 100`s of them. And inst that what Satan is suppose to do, kill or cause death to people. What was suppose to come out of this post was, Who is the God of the Cross. Al Queda said on cnn, that they plan on doing more and bigger attacks in the future on the Forces of the Cross, and its people behind it. If Satan is the head of the church and the cross is associated with the church would that not make it so that Al Queda believes the cross belongs to Satan. I believe it does it does not belong to our Father God, or Lord Jesus or the Bible. I hope I have explained it a little better this time for everyone. Dave in Tenn looking forward to reading anything you may have to say on this. Stevernator, you were on it as well. Would any Mods like to have a go with this one. Would be nice.       Bless you all        Ricky

[Dave in Tenn]

Ricky, you know what the cross is.  Jesus died on the cross.  You know why He did that.  I don't give much of a rat's tuckus at present whether it was a pole or a cross-shape or what shape it took.  Jesus didn't die a natural death.  He wasn't stoned by a mob.  He wasn't struck by lightening.  He wasn't cast off a cliff.  He was crucified.  The Christian cross is a symbol of that.

Baptism and communion are symbols of Christ's death and resurrection too.  The churches raise these symbols as high or higher than the Christ when they require people to accept the symbol in order to have a relationship with the One who the symbols point to.  A symbol can't be greater than that which it symbolizes. 

As for Al Qaeda's statement...consider the source.  Their Theology is more twisted than the churches!  Don't take bible lessons from Osama Bin Laden.

   

[OBrenda]

Hey Ricky,

Please forgive us if a post runs a little astray sometimes.  They usually do take on a life of their own.  I try to think of it as God's way of blessing everyone.  I'm glad you spoke up to be heard.  There is another saying that goes along with what Dave shared.....The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

I don't know much of anything about what they believe about the "God of the Cross"  I know they hate the Trinity belief of more than one God.  We reject that also.  So where does that place everybody in the big picture...I don't know.  What I do know is that it is in all God's will that there is this great Delusion, and each side believes they have the truth.  Very Humbling indeed.

Peace,
Brenda

[Kat]

The church does hold up a cross as being the symbol of Christ and a Christain certainly uses a cross to represent their religion.  Indeed I believe it is the main symbol they use all over the place and it is closely related to Christaindom.  What's interesting too is I don't believe that Islam use the cross at all, so they use the 'cross' of Christaindom to identify them and focus their attention on. 
But the reality is I don't think that the 'cross' really has anything to do concerning Christ.  Here is a section from the LOF no. 8 that has a really good spiritual understanding concerning Christ and the cross.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ------------------------

THE CHURCH OF EPHESUS

"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life" (Rev. 2:7).

That’s CHRIST.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and [I am] the LIFE� (John 11:25).

The KJV translates "tree" in this verse from the Greek word xulon. Here is Strong’s definition of xulon: "timber (for fuel or material); by impl. a stick, club or tree or wooden art. or substance … xulon, wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood." The word "tree" does fit what is spoken of in this verse, but when we come to Rev. 22:2, "tree of life" does not seem to fit as well.

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life…" (Rev. 22:2).

How do we have one tree of life on BOTH sides of the river?

One translation translates both of these verses as "wood of life." Another has, "log of life." Interestingly, one translation has this footnote, Wood is the primary significance of zulon, and may here denote, as in Rev. xxii, an aggregation of dendra, or trees, commonly called a wood, or forest; a xulon of life, occupying a place on both sides of the river."

What a marvelous word picture God has presented to us in these words. Jesus Christ is first and foremost, "The" [singular] Tree of Life. This is the Tree of Life spoken of in the Garden of Eden. That tree grew out of the earth, just as Jesus (the source of life—from His Father) came in the flesh (the "earth") to bring life (immortality—deathlessness, eternal life) to all humanity. Interestingly, the first time xulon is used in Scripture is where Jesus said,

"For if they do these things in a green [living] tree [Gk: xulon—wood] what shall be done in the dry [dead wood]?" (Luke 23:31).

Jesus Christ is the "green living tree." Jesus met His death by being crucified. The "cross" of Christendom was really a post, pole, or upright stake that is fastened or planted in the ground manually—it did not grow from that spot. It is not a living xulon or wood or tree. Jesus died on a DEAD wood or dead tree.

But Jesus is now raised from the dead and is the Live Tree, the Tree of LIFE. We get a "taste" of this life when God gives us of His Holy Spirit. But we receive only the "ernest" or down payment in this life:

"…you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the ernest of our inheritance UNTIL [at a later date] the redemption of the purchased possession…" (Eph. 1:13b-14).

At the resurrection we will be changed:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: for we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be LIKE HIM, for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2-3).

Jesus also said this:

"As Thou [the Father] has given Him [Jesus] power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life [eonian life, which for the believer includes immortality] to as many as Thou has given Him" (John 17:2).

And so, as Jesus has life in Himself, He will give us that same life. And just as Jesus is the Singlular "Wood [tree] of life," we too will become the Plural "Wood of Life" spoken of in Rev. 22:2. Remember a "wood" is a gathering of trees as in "woods" or "forest." Where do we read of such a gathering of "living trees?"

"And He showed me a pure river of water of life [this is God’s life giving spirit] clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God [the Father has life] and of the Lamb [the Father gives life to Jesus to give to as many as God has given Him]. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river [of life], was there the tree [xulon, wood, or woods or forest] of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (Rev 22:1-2).

Jesus is the source of all life because His Father gave Him life to disseminate to others.

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given to the son to have LIFE IN HIMSELF" (John 5:26).

So in Revelation 22 we see the river of life flowing from God and Christ, through the middle of the forest of trees of life (that’s US), and we in return "heal the nations" just as Obadiah prophesied of the coming of "saviours" (plural) to Mt. Zion (God’s headquarters of government throne) to judge the nations.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Just thought this would be a good addition to this thread.

mercy, peace and love
Kat