Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Samson]

Dear Brothers & Sisters,


                                  Just thought that this Topic might be interesting, to at least some of you. None of the following information is intended to sway or coerce any of you in one direction or another. Also this Topic isn't intended to involve whether or not the Cross or Pole is used for Idolatrous purposes, but rather a discussion on the instrument of Christ's death. I noticed in an Email answer that Ray provided to someone about this issue, that it's most likely an upright Pole. I read that in Off Topic Discussions regarding The Topic about Crosses, started by Ricky. As some of you know, I was a JW for twenty years and was taught that Christ died on a Upright Pole or Stake and that isn't a problem for me. So, with that said, let me clearly state, it doesn't matter to me whether or not it was a Cross or Upright Pole. This topic is only for the Stimulating affect of the Discussion.

                      Some Greek Words to consider: 1) Stauros(pronounced stow-ros)--- primarily a Stake or Post, as set upright. In Classical Greek, the Stauros meant merely an upright stake or pale. It was such a stake that the Greek Hero Prometheus was represented as tied to rocks. Only secondarily did it come to mean a Pole with a crossbeam attached.

                                                                  2) Xylon or Xulon(pronounced Zoo-lon)----- Timber, Tree or other wooden substance, like a club.  In the Revised Standard Version and the Older Versions of the King James at Gal. 3:13; Acts. 5:30; 1Peter. 2:24; Acts. 10:39 & Acts. 13:29. Of interest at Deuteronomy. 21:22, it states: " And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a Tree. ", Verse 23, " his body shall not remain all night upon the Tree, but you shall bury him him the same day, for a hanged man is accursed by God; you shall not defile your land which the LORD(Jehovah) your God gives you for an inheritance."  I can't seem to find the Hebrew Word for Tree or Timber for Deut. 21:22. It might be "ets", but not positive. Galatians. 3:13 & Acts. 5:30 is quoting Deuteronomy. 21:22. That seems to indicate, at the very least, the idea of a Crossbeam is a secondary understanding.

                                                                  3) Crux(Latin for Cross) primarily means a Tree or Frame or other Wooden instruments of execution according to The Latin Dictionary by Lewis and Short. So even the Crux has the basic meaning of Tree, not necessarily requiring a Crossbeam.

                     Of course there are Historical factors to be considered in all of this, I will only touch on some of the claims and leave the rest for commenting from Forum members.


                     According to Roman literary sources, those condemned to crucifixion never carried the complete cross, instead only the crossbar was carried, while the upright was set in a permanent place where it was used for subsequent executions. According to Josephus, wood was so scarce in Jerusalem during the First Century A.D.

                     John. 20:25 mentions THE NAILS that punctured Jesus' hands. There is a controversy as to, how could it be an upright Pole if there were Nails(plural) in the hands necessitating a Cross or if the Nails mentioned applies to more than one body part. I'll let you the reader comment on this aspect.

                    There is some Archaeological evidence in support of Jesus Death Instrument being a Cross, there are three points in my personal information at home. I decided not to include this information and let Forum Members make their comments and insights.

                     In conclusion, this is not intended for debating purposes, I have no desire for such and don't plan on engaging in any of that. Feel free to make your Posts, looking forward to hearing from you.


                                        Kind Regards, Samson

           P.S. I don't start too many threads, it's that putting on and taking off, glasses thing, it's monotonous and tiring; 



             

[Linny]

Hi Samson,
We have found this topic of interest as well. We read about the cross and how this symbol has been abused so much that we stopped wearing them or using them in our home.

Have you seen the picture of the one the Pope holds? It has an emaciated Jesus hanging on it. It is quite creepy.

My understanding is that it was not a cross but actually in an X shape. This was in some info that talked about what was used most in Crucifixion. This X shape would allow for the nails in His hands.

Lin

[Beloved]

Interesting topic, upright or cross beam

Either way it was wood, Scripture was fulfilled and the "FirstFruit' was put back on the tree.

The whole stake would have weighed 300 pounds, the reference of Simon of Cyrene suggests that it was the cross beam or gibbet that was carried which would have weighed about 175 pounds. The fact that hyssop was used to put the sponge up implies that the upright was at least 7 feet high.   Luke and John both refers to the holes or nail marks.  The only cool part of mel gibson's movie The Pasion" was that sceen at His ressurection when the light shone through these holes. I can never watch this movie again.

The Persians and the Geeks used this form of punishment, the Roman being particularly aggressive (2 iron legs) , perfected it and extensively used it as a warning to any rebellion, the Spartacus rebellion and later 70 AD were major public demonstations were thousands were crucified.

beloved

[OBrenda]

Never heard of the X cross before, but I have of the single pole.  I've heard the scientist say they nails could not have been placed in the actual hands like we have seen in the movies & paintings.  Possibly in the wrist, to be able to hold the weight.  I think this is pretty commonly known.  Good point about the bigger issue is what was done on the cross, than exactly what form the cross took.
It is just constant unraveling of a false reality we have trusted in.
Firstfruits back on the tree...I've never heard that one before.

Don't have any personal study knowledge to share, just a comment that it's amazing the cruelty we are capable of.

Interesting,
Brenda

[Beloved]

This was just a reference to

(Joh 6:53)  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

contrasted with

(Gen 2:9)  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

and the choice of the means of death..crucifixition

(Gal 3:13)  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Contrast of literal vs spiritual

beloved

[Kat]

Hi Samson,

I had an off topic post some months ago.  I had found a site where a doctor explained the crucifixion in excruciating detail.  He did show Christ on a post with a cross bar on top.  But it is quite interesting if you are not squeamish.
http://www.brainshavings.com/supplements/crucifixion/

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[David]

Most historians accept that the instrument used for Roman crucifixion was a cross or T shape. Death was caused usually by asphyxiation due to the arms being outstretched to their limit and nailed in place at the hands or wrists. The legs and feet were kept together, not spread apart as they would have been on an X shape. Once the body weight is supported by the arms outstretched to the sides, the lungs constrict and death occurs by asphyxiation. That is why after victims had hung for some time, usually for the ghoulish entertainment of those taking part and those present and to further humiliate and distress both the victim and their family, the legs would be broken to speed up the process. Once the legs were broken the weight would be fully supported by the outstretched arms, causing rapid asphyxiation. 
I really don't see how an upright pole without the T section or cross section could have been used. It doesn't fit any description. In order to use an upright pole, the arms would have most likely have been bound and nailed by their sides, not outstretched. This would suggest that Christ didn't die by crucifixion, but either from the injuries he'd already sustained, or by the guard piercing Him. Well, the Bible says he was already dead when the guard pierced him, so that just leaves his injuries if He was bound and nailed to an upright pole.
I believe He was crucified on a cross or T section. I believe He was so physically weakened by what He had suffered that day, that once crucified His legs didn't have the strength to hold His weight for very long, and so He was already dead before He was pierced by the guard.

[Samson]

All good comments,

                            Thankyou Kat, for that link regarding Crucifiction and the process it entailed.

                         And David, I agree with you that if it was a Cross, it was most likely T shaped. As mentioned in my previous Post, I have some Historical evidence at my disposal seeming to support that the instrument of his death was probably a T shaped Cross, I didn't present it. Not that it didn't have any value, but I'm somewhat suspect and leery about any evidence in this regard from time periods after the First Century AD or CE. As an example, they found a picture dating from the Second Century of a Donkey nailed to the Cross as a type of mockery of Christians( Roman Graffito with Christ on Cross, Alexamenos Worshipping his God). Even though I think it was T shaped, you rarely if ever see  Christ displayed that way on the Cross.

                        My main emphasis was to show that the Greek and Hebrew Words used in translating our English Word Cross, didn't have that Primary meaning: Stauros-Stake or Pole; Xulon- Timber or Tree, a piece of wood; Crux(Latin)- stake or pole and Ets(Hebrew)- Tree or Timber. I guess they didn't have a Greek Word specifically meaning Cross and Stauros was the only choice for Cross.

                        Does anyone know of a Greek Word that specifically meant and rendered Cross, please enlighten me.

                                        Kind Regards, Samson.

[Patrick]

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/little-evidence-jesus-died-on-a-cross-says-swedish-scholar/19530666

"An extensive study of ancient texts by a Swedish pastor and academic has revealed that Jesus may not have died on a cross, but instead been put to death on another gruesome execution device.

Gunnar Samuelsson -- a theologian at the University of Gothenburg and author of a 400-page thesis on crucifixion in antiquity."

I kind of remembered this being discussed before, so instead of starting a new post, I resurrected this one! 

We read in John 20, Christ tells Thomas "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side:" So, we know Christ had some wounds on his hands from the act, regardless of what shape the instrument was.
I don't think the type of instrument used is of that much importance, I don't wear a cross around my neck anymore! The fact that Christ is raised from the dead and will be the Savior of the world is of much more importance to me.
OK, back to your regularly scheduled studies!

[Samson]

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/little-evidence-jesus-died-on-a-cross-says-swedish-scholar/19530666

"An extensive study of ancient texts by a Swedish pastor and academic has revealed that Jesus may not have died on a cross, but instead been put to death on another gruesome execution device.

Gunnar Samuelsson -- a theologian at the University of Gothenburg and author of a 400-page thesis on crucifixion in antiquity."

I kind of remembered this being discussed before, so instead of starting a new post, I resurrected this one! 

We read in John 20, Christ tells Thomas "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side:" So, we know Christ had some wounds on his hands from the act, regardless of what shape the instrument was.
I don't think the type of instrument used is of that much importance, I don't wear a cross around my neck anymore! The fact that Christ is raised from the dead and will be the Savior of the world is of much more importance to me.
OK, back to your regularly scheduled studies!

Thankyou for your contribution to this thread Patrick, sometimes I like to search through Old General Discussion Threads, it's a good way of learning and gives variety in our Spiritual studies.

                              Kind Regards, Samson.

[markn902]

another great discussion on BT forum. Thanks Samson for bringing this up I love stimulating conversation and get plenty of it here!  
I want to chime in on why I hesitate to imagine Jesus on the Cross as it were. and that reason is Egypt and other ancient Babylon religions. We already get so many of our "doctrines" from them I am afraid we get some imagery too. Like the Ankh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh  

"The cross in the form of the 'Crux Ansata' . . . was carried in the hands of the Egyptian priests and Pontiff kings as the symbol of their authority as priests of the Sun god and was called 'the Sign of Life'."

and this

More on the pre-Christian history of the cross symbol

Scandinavia: The Tau cross symbolized the hammer of the God Thor.
 
Babylon: the cross with a crescent moon was the symbol of their moon deity.
 
Assyria: the corners of the cross represented the four directions in which the sun shines.
 
India: In Hinduism, the vertical shaft represents the higher, celestial states of being; the horizontal bar represents the lower, earthly states.
 
Egypt: The ankh cross (a Tau cross topped by an inverted tear shape) is associated with Maat, their Goddess of Truth. It also represents the sexual union of Isis and Osiris.
 
Europe: The use of a human effigy on a cross in the form of a scarecrow has been used from ancient times. In prehistoric times, a human would be sacrificed and hung on a cross. The sacrifice would later be chopped to pieces; his blood and pieces of flesh were widely distributed and buried to encourage the crop fertility.

So all of that doesn't prove anything one way or the other on what exactly our Lord was killed on, It just makes me hesitant to accept what the church is portraying.

I think Ray said it best when he said "if the church is teaching it it's probably false"
                                  
                                Mark

[Samson]

Thanks for the information Mark,

                                            The Carnal Mind seems to desire the making of Idols out of inanimate objects: Wood, Metal, plastic, etc, but they cannot see, hear feel, think or give us Life(Physical or Spiritual). Also the Sacred Pole was used in Idolatrous Worship, too. So, the Pagan aspect of the use of the Cross, although significant, is not in itself the final determining factor regarding the instrument of Christs Death. Certainly, the evidence of the primary meanings of "Stauros" (Pole, Stake or Pole); "Xylon" (Tree); "Crux" (Pole, Cross) and "ets"(Hebrew) add weight that the instrument of Christs Death wasn't the "traditional" Cross. And as you stated: " If the Churches teach it, it's probably wrong." Below I copied and pasted a quote regarding the usage of the Greek Word Stauros to add to this thread.

The Book; The Non Christian Cross(pp. 23,24) By John Denham Parsons states: " There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the Stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary Stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted , not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a Cross." " It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word Stauros as Cross when rendering the Greek documents of the Church in our native tongue, and to support that action by putting Cross in our lexicons as the meaning of Stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become it's primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corrobative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular Stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape."

      Just some more food for thought, Samson.

[Duane]

SAMSON--I can't help but MARVEL writings, especially you knowledge of the "dead languages"!  My father was a Baptist minister all of his life, having graduated from Moody Bible and excelling in Greek--and I NEVER HEARD in ANY of his messages the term "eon, ionian,
hades, sheol etc. as explained in Ray's/your work in my lifetime!  Eon/ionian -never~! 
Now how could one read the greek and see the words mis-translated and just accept it, OR WORSE YET, skip over it! 

My father was no dummy--working full-time and taking a full-time work load for three years and graduating with honors!  It wasn't until he joined the army and was tested that he learned that his IQ was just shy of "genius"!  They wanted to commission him immediately as an OFFICER, with all it's military priviledges,  but rather my father went in as an enlisted "nobody" because he felt that he could better reach "the common soldier" for the Lord in that diminished capacity.  And, he tried his best--ending up with national recognition for starting a food kitchen /orphanage for the homeless Japanese children that he found eating out of the thrown out dumpster food of the GI mess hall.
I wonder HOW my father would feel-- now now that I have CHOSEN to up-end all of his teaching by accepting Ray's Foundational Truths as (HA HA) "gospel fact"!

I need not tell you how many days/weeks/months I struggled before I said "ya know--right is right no matter what"!  I must admit that
when I was introduced to Ray's Web-site by a friend, I read Ra's letter to Dr. Hagee/Kennedy for 14 STRAIGHT HOURS!  I WAS/AM TOTALLY MESMERIZED BY THE FINDINGS!  But what a spiritual struggle I went through znd then to TELL MY FAMILY/FRIENDS gsve me a firsthand feeling what a converted Jew must go thru in saying that he is now a "Christian Jew"--then looking t his families scorn over the news!   Believe me, I have a lot of Christian friends "Praying for me" as they fear that I have been "led astray".