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[aqrinc]

Dennis,
Now that is the quote i can live with, sometimes it get a bit tough when serving but
that is exactly what we are doing. Training to serve the least of these our Brothers
and Sisters as we would have it done to us.

Geo.

WhoAmI, I have a few but my Wife may catch me at it.

noone. LOL 

great visual metaphor Dennis.

The world thinks it is at a banquet, they are enjoying themselves for the most part but some folks are choking on their food. Some people have even been given very bads meals.

Those who have had their eyes and ears opened....are now waiters and busboys....they know the Chef and they are learning what is really good to eat..... but when they even try to make suggestions .......they are scorned and rediculed and belittled by their own family groups. 

beloved

Thanks, but that's not quite what I had in mind Dr. Carol.

My point is we should be servants now as we will be servants in the next life.

This whole exercise is about becoming humble and meek (among other things).

We should not consider ourselves better in any way, because we are not.

Dennis

[Douglas Wayne Thomas]

WhoamI - not about Hagee, he is too easy to pick on:

Offer made to Adam
God looks down and notices that Adam is all alone while all the animals have companions, so he decides to create a companion for man as well. He comes to see Adam and says to him, "Adam, you are my greatest creation and therefore, I am going to create for you the ultimate companion. She will worship the very ground you walk on, she will long for you and no other, she will be highly intelligent, she will wait on you hand and foot and obey your every command, she will be beautiful, and all it will cost you is an arm and a leg." Thinking for a few moments, Adam replies, "What could I get for a rib?"

[Falconn003]

 

Rodger

[legoman]

JeffH,

Very good post.  I know I catch myself alot thinking about how I was lucky to have my eyes opened, and I still have trouble understanding how the blind cannot see... but it is God's will.  The pride seeps in too quickly.  We are no better than anyone else, so I should not mock or question anyone when they don't see.

I have a long way to go if I am to overcome.

Legoman

[JeffH]

It's the cornerstone of BT and Ray's approach to teaching the Gospel to expose those who contradict and teach right doctrine.  It's a solid scriptural approach.  It doesn't matter whether the ones teaching what contradicts are willfully lying or not.  It is the teachings themselves that stand in contradiction to the Truth.

Then why are we calling those people liars?  Who gave them the teachings?  God?  Indirectly, YES.  Those people aren't lying, Satan is.  They are supposed to believe the things they believe.

You and I and everyone else here are MUCH more accountable for our sin than those deceived people.  I doubt that, at Judgment time, those people are going to be held accountable for teaching and believing that hell is a place of torture.

Jesus exposed the double-minded Pharisees.  They knew the truth and were deceitful.  To everyone else He showed love.  He was compassionate.  Pastor Joe and parishioner Sally aren't deceitful in their belief in hell.

[JeffH]

Legoman,

Amen brother.

Jeff

[Craig]

You and I and everyone else here are MUCH more accountable for our sin than those deceived people.

I agree with you 100% here.

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required"

I doubt that, at Judgment time, those people are going to be held accountable for teaching and believing that hell is a place of torture.

But I disagree 100% with you here.

    Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23
    Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.'

We will all be accountable for our thoughts and actions and beliefs.  We have no clue on who God's elect is.  It may be someone who believes in hell, it could be a muslim, an athiest, etc, etc.  But you can bet they (and we) all will be accountable for their thoughts, actions and beliefs and God will deal with them accordingly.

Craig

[Beloved]

Now you piqued my interest Craig can you further explain you wrote

We have no clue on who God's elect is.  It may be someone who believes in hell, it could be a Muslim, an atheist, etc, etc.  But you can bet they (and we) all will be accountable for their thoughts, actions and beliefs and God will deal with them accordingly

I thought His elect were those who were faithful followed Christ and died daily and endured until the end. I agree with the fact that all are accountable and that who the elect are not known at this time.

Isn't belief in Hell blaspheming God?, the Muslim, does not love his fellow men, therefore by the word cannot be a follower of Christ? Regarding the atheist...is not this a case of the pot denying he Potter?  I am confused.

When I asked about these three groups, I do not want to imply judgement to them, rather that I want Him to remove these things ans actions that displease God from me. I can see that God can bring any of these three to HIM and that they could become the elect or chosen.

Eating from the tree of Good and Evil implies judgement, we should not judge others action only are own..that is something we are to do when our eyes have been opened and the Spirit is working in us .

We have to be constantly aware that it is so easy for satan to puff one up and deceive one into thinking too much of self...it is just another ploy to get 'Self' to sit on the seat that belongs to the Father. That is why these posts are good because they help deflate my own balloons.

beloved

[Craig]

What I meant was, we don't know where God will pluck out his elect.  I would say Paul was elect and he wasn't a sister Theresa before God called on him.  What a person believes now or where they live and what religion they are brought up in has no bearing on who God chooses.  God will choose whom He will.

I believe most on this forum have been called, but that by no means makes us better than the people I pointed out.  Some of them could well be the elect, and we may always be the called.

Craig

[dogcombat]

Craig,

You mentioned a VERY DEEP truth that only a few will understand.  That's why Ray noted in his papers that we aren't saved in this life.  But that salvation is FUTURE TENSE.

May God's Grace Open Our Eyes
Ches

[mharrell08]

It's the cornerstone of BT and Ray's approach to teaching the Gospel to expose those who contradict and teach right doctrine.  It's a solid scriptural approach.  It doesn't matter whether the ones teaching what contradicts are willfully lying or not.  It is the teachings themselves that stand in contradiction to the Truth.

Then why are we calling those people liars?  Who gave them the teachings?  God?  Indirectly, YES.  Those people aren't lying, Satan is.  They are supposed to believe the things they believe.

You and I and everyone else here are MUCH more accountable for our sin than those deceived people.  I doubt that, at Judgment time, those people are going to be held accountable for teaching and believing that hell is a place of torture.

Jesus exposed the double-minded Pharisees.  They knew the truth and were deceitful.  To everyone else He showed love.  He was compassionate.  Pastor Joe and parishioner Sally aren't deceitful in their belief in hell.

A person is a liar if they speak falsely. Those of the church speak/teach false doctrines. Like Rays says, it doesn't matter how you got dirty, God still is going to give you a bath.

I believe Ray's papers on the 2 churches speaks volumes. If that is not enough for some, then so be it. That is the purpose of this forum to congregate and assemble on what we learned from Ray's teachings. Everything else from this thread has just been personal beliefs with NO reference to scriptures or any of Ray's papers.


Thanks,

Marques

[Beloved]

Douglas started this post and on the surface it may have seem to be kind of a rebuff to Rays teachings

Is there a church around that teaches the truth? Can I physically fellowship with anyone in a church where the truth is being taught? How would I find out about such a church if one did exist?

Assuming that all that come to the forum have read Ray's position on this is seems on the surface to be an absurd question to ask.

We here at the forum and conference want to believe that we assemble and fellowship as the true church but as I looked at this passage and it may me ponder.

 Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus asked peter who He was…

(Mat 16:15)  He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

(Mat 16:16)  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

(Mat 16:17)  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

We all read it but do we get it? It seems to me that many (especially Catholic and other denominations ) who reads Matthew 16:18 think that peter is the one who the church is being built on.

There is a play on words that makes this happen . Peter means a piece of the rock , a stone, but the Rock being referred to is feminine a huge mass of Rock…substational.

Peter did not come up with that answer the Spirit of God revealed it to him, it is the spirit of God that will bring you to the Rock

 Luk 8:6  And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

 The rock they stumble on is Petra (look it up) Not Petros (peters name)  The cannot take root because they are not of the spirit, they cannot receive the word.  They stumble because they follow mans thoughts and doctrines, not the spirit. 

We are to have our foundation on this Rock, not any stones  (petros or lithos)

The same Rock mentioned many times in the OT

2Sa 22:32  For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a Rock, save our God?    Hebrew for Rock  is tsur tsur

Being human we want to be in a physical man made dwelling made of man made stones and we do like following 'talking head' but peter himself tells us we are living stones….stones that are alive because the Spirit reveals to us to the Rock.

That is why Ray can affirmly state that NO CURCH on earth has true doctrine.  It is God himself that will construct it…He will select the building material.

You asked “How would I find out about such a church if one did exist?

That is why Jesus told us to ….. Seek the Kingdom…isn’t that what we are all trying to do.


beloved

[KristaD]

Exactly, Beloved, you summed up my thoughts far more eloquently than I did.

[OBrenda]

Good Food here, I've enjoyed this thread...

Sharpening Iron with Iron,...Respectfully Challenging,... where Everyone is Edified!

Yes, I'll take second helpings of this kind of fellowship!
Brenda

[mharrell08]

Thank you Beloved...that was the best post I have read on the forums in quite sometime. Thank you


Marques

[chuckt]

seems eventually all the church buildings will need to burn, just like the physical temple in 70 ad.

peace
chuckt

[Douglas Wayne Thomas]

This talk of stones/rocks has got me thinking, oh no not again. About some of the ways Jesus was described as a stone/rock and how he talked about stones/rocks.

In 1st Peter 2; 1-8 we read:

WHEREFORE laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2. As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3. If so ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion (Hebrew: צִיּוֹן, tziyyon Sion is a term that most often designates the Land of Israel and its capital, Jerusalem) A Chief Cornerstone, Elect, Precious, And He That Believeth On Him Shall not Be Confounded.

7. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, The Stone Which The builders Disallowed, The Same Is Made The Head Of The Corner,

8. And A Stone Of Stumbling, And A Rock Of Offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

In Isaiah we read:
Isaiah 8:14-15 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

It is interesting that in this passage Jesus is first mentioned as a sanctuary, a place of refuge, a dwelling place, and a place of worship.

He then declares that he would be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence.

He also declares that Jesus would be a gin* and a snare to some. *Side note; a Gin is also a type of block and tackle used to set stones in place when building a building; to lower into place and fix solidly, as the blocks of cut stone in a structure.

Paul also made reference to an Old Testament prophecy.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Again, in his first letter to the Corinthians he refers to the same thing.

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness.

In Psalms 31 verse 2 we read:

Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.

3. For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.

Lastly: The Bible is clear that Jesus is the rock.

 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Just my thoughts.

Seeking to do God's will always,

Douglas

[JeffH]

We will all be accountable for our thoughts and actions and beliefs.

Hebrews 10 (Young's)

16 `This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, giving My laws on their hearts, and upon their minds I will write them,'
17 and `their sins and their lawlessness I will remember no more;'
18 and where forgiveness of these [is], there is no more offering for sin.

[Craig]

And your point is?

Once God changes our hearts and minds, He will do as He says.  It's what happens between then and now that we are accountable.

Have any of us had this transformation?  Do you think this is going to be an easy transformation?

Is His laws totally in our hearts? Is His will written in our minds?

If it has then I'm glad for you, I've got a long way to go.

Craig

[JeffH]

A person is a liar if they speak falsely. Those of the church speak/teach false doctrines. Like Rays says, it doesn't matter how you got dirty, God still is going to give you a bath.

Websters Revised Unabridged

Liar
n. [OE. liere. See Lie to falsify.] A person who knowingly utters falsehood; one who lies.

I believe Ray's papers on the 2 churches speaks volumes. If that is not enough for some, then so be it. That is the purpose of this forum to congregate and assemble on what we learned from Ray's teachings. Everything else from this thread has just been personal beliefs with NO reference to scriptures or any of Ray's papers.

I hope you don't mean that.  Rather than using my words, I'll leave you with God's.  I'm as grateful for Ray as I am for my own life, but I'll be leaning on Christ as I ponder his writings.  Everything I've written in this thread is Scriptural, not my personal opinion.  I made the assumption that you knew the verses behind the words.

1 Corinthians 3:

1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?
4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.
7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.
8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.


Jeff