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Author Topic: How Long Has Man Been On Earth  (Read 14839 times)

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enigmoxical

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2008, 12:45:01 AM »

Hi there enigmoxical....If God is resting, being the 7th day,  how can it be that we (humans) are still stuck in the 6th day.  It does not make any sense.  I believe that because God is still creating humans into the image of the Son, that the 7th day will be completed and we all move onto the 8th day and so on and so on.

Ray says (and the Word witnesses to the fact) that:Now all this ties in with keeping the seventh day, a day of rest.  If God is still ceasing from all the works that were finished, He does that on the seventh day.  This still must be the seventh day of God's ceasing! 

I think it is important to apply common seance in the matter and therefor it would not make any seance that we are a day behind God......for as He is so are we in the world.

I would appreciate some input from the mods if this thought is going the right way.


Hello Heidi, and please don't get me wrong. I don't wish to be argumentative or disruptive in any way. All I want to do is to examine the scriptures and learn the truth. But I really don't know how I can explain my thinking any better than what I just have. Man is a work in progress, agreed? And has that work been completed? Well, I guess that depends upon whose perspective we are looking at this from. From God's viewpoint, yes, the work is done. He has declared the end from the beginning. And when God says something, it's as good as gold - we can take it to the bank. But from our perspective, is the work finished? Are we finished products? No, because we still have to go through the process of death and resurrection. And we will not be finished products until we are raised as immortal and incorruptible spiritual beings, ones who ARE fully created in the very image of God.

Let me ask you a question, Heidi: Why do you suppose the Concordant Version uses the phrase "IS ceasing" instead of the phrase "HAS ceased"? Do you think there might be a subtle difference?  ;)

Peace
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enigmoxical

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2008, 12:53:06 AM »

Here are some interesting observations from EW Bullinger's Number in Scripture:

Man was created on the sixth day, and thus he has the number six impressed upon him. Moreover, six days were appointed to him for his labour; while one day is associated in sovereignty with the Lord God, as His rest.

Six, therefore, is the number of labour also, of man's labour as apart and distinct from God's rest. True, it marks the completion of Creation as God's work, and therefore the number is significant of secular completeness.

The serpent also was created on the sixth day.

The Sixth Commandment relates to the worst sin,—murder.

The sixth clause of the Lord's prayer treats of sin.

Six is the number stamped on all that is connected with human labour. We see it stamped upon his measures which he uses in his labour, and on the time during which he labours. And we see this from the very beginning.

Corresponding to these measures we have the first division of the natural time-spaces which measure man's labour and rest,—the day, consisting of 24 hours (4x6), divided into the day and night of 12 hours. The multiples and subdivisions are also stamped by the number six. The months being 12; while the hours consist of 60 minutes (6x10), and the minutes of 60 seconds (6x10).
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Akira329

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2008, 12:59:21 AM »

Oh Lord I feel compelled to throw in my two and half cents!!
God help me!

H4480
מנּי    מנּי    מן
min  minnîy  minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.
H2308
חדל
châdal
khaw-dal'
A primitive root; properly to be flabby, that is, (by implication) desist; (figuratively) be lacking or idle: - cease, end, fail, forbear, forsake, leave (off), let alone, rest, be unoccupied, want.

The way I have always thought about what Ray had said was that God is yet ceasing from his work even on the seventh day.
His work is coming to and end, it's going to stop, he is going to no longer continue his work on this day.
I think the question is at the end of the night will he rest in the morning.
This day will be divided just like any other day, day and night.

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day, when the night cometh, when no man can work, here am I send me.
My dad says that all the time, it has never rung more true than now after the conference.
Don't mean to jump off topic of thread!
Don't mind me...........I'm a nobody here!LOL
I'll go back in my hole now

Antaiwan
 
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Heidi

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2008, 01:07:06 AM »

I don't have an argumentative bone in my body....just trying to understand the scripture and to know the truth.  This is a very interesting post enigmoxical and I do understand what you are conveying to us.  I need to ask questions until I understand by the grace of God.

So here is a further question.  Why would God then say: "come into my rest" i.e. inviting us to partake in His rest and allow Him to bring us to full understanding and to complete the work which He has begun?
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Heidi

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2008, 01:10:23 AM »

Another scripture to contemplate:

Hebrews 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

This is telling me that I am now in His rest, the Sabbath day, the 7th day

What is your take on this?
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Douglas Wayne Thomas

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2008, 06:21:07 AM »

My ancestors were the Indian tribe known as the Heckowwee.

They used to wonder around alot without a name for the tribe. Then one day the chief climbed up a hill and put his hand over his eyes, like a military salute, and started yelling Where the Heckowwee?
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ScarletWren

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2008, 06:46:55 AM »

hahahah, Doug, very funny on your hekowee.

I side with the one who says that we are not in the seventh "day" from the standpoint of man's creation.  If you look very closely at the 'two accounts' of creation you can see vast differences and it could be that the first account is prophetical and the second is what was taking place and is still taking place.  We are still not in the image of God for Adam and Jesus were contrasted.  It's late right now and I can't remember, but somewhere in the gospels, Jesus mentioned that God was working and so was he.  Yet, God is outside of time, so since He can see the finished work, and from His vantage point, it is finished, in that sense His work is finished, but to us, in the thrall of time, I believe we're still in the sixth day. Finding rest in HIm, to me,  isn't that there's no labor, it's peace in the midst of labor and strife.

Is there a reason we can't disagree on some points?  Do we have to believe that 100% of what Ray says is right?   I don't know if there's any one person on the web that I agree 100% with, but I have many favorite writers and can glean some good and precious gems from each of them.  Some believe in the trinity (I pretty much have been swayed to Ray's view on that); some believe that we are still conscious after death (I also tend to think Ray's view on that makes more sense, after believing the other way most of my life).  But I was still struggling with some issues awhile ago and I read a very good article (can't remember where) that said it isn't imperative to know everything in full right now, even Paul said we see through a glass dimly now; and God still loves us if we get something wrong, and one day we will know fully.  So I try to remember that when I struggle with something that seems too difficult for my teeny brain to get a grip on.

Just my half penny's worth.

Trish in AZ
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hillsbororiver

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2008, 08:42:40 AM »

Hi Folks,

This topic need not spiral downhill because we all do not understand/agree/concur or however we might phrase it. My take (right or wrong or somewhere in between) is that in the very beginning when that atom, point, grain or seed was the entire universe that upon expansion (Big Bang) would ultimately contain everything (and everyone) that would ever exist. All the information and energy required to accomplish this was predesigned into this tiny "seed."

Think about the point of conception for a human being, all the information that (physically) makes us what we are and how we appear are within those 2 cells which ultimately become the 35 trillion cells which make up a human body, that in itself is a mind blowing thing to contemplate.

Since the universe is still expanding and changing and creatures are still being conceived and born I can understand the reasoning behind the thought that creation (the 6th day) is still in effect, on the other hand like a row of dominoes once the dominoes are set in place it only takes the initial push to set all the motion in action, the pattern in which the dominoes finally lay out has been predetermined before the first one even falls no further action is required by the initiator.
 
My suggestion is we wait until Kat (bless her heart) provides the transcripts before we take this any further, at least we will have an outline or point of reference to consult in our discussion.

Please keep in mind the purpose of the Forum.  ;)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html

Peace,

Joe
 
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mharrell08

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2008, 09:32:24 AM »

Hello All:

I know this topic was just locked and then unlocked, and I am not trying to start an argument, but I just had something pop in my head that I gotta post before I lose it. Please grab your Bibles as I am in a hurry and won't post all the scriptures right now.

Remember how Ray showed us to count back the days of creation? 'And God said...' which was the beginning of the day. But also, do you notice that upon completion, the Word states 'the evening and the morning were the x day'? We have a completion of the 6th day [last chapter in Gen 1]

But here's this, could those of unbelief be in the evening [darkness] while those who come into a knowledge of the truth (entering His rest) be in the morning [light; truth; righteousness] of the 7th day?

Also, remember Adam was formed, not made, after the 6th day as there was no one to til the ground. Don't know where this last statement goes, but just decided to throw it in.

Mods, if this is too much speculation, please lock. I don't mean to cause a disruption in the forum. This just felt like one of those 'Eureka!' moments that I wanted to share.


Thanks,

Marques
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Douglas Wayne Thomas

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2008, 10:54:16 AM »


The following is part of an article by Dr. Schroeder formerly of M.I.T.:

15 billion or six days?

     Today, we look back in time. We see 15 billion years. Looking forward from when the universe is very small -- billions of times smaller -- the Torah says six days. They both may be correct.

     What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning, relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. Any one of a dozen physics text books all bring the same number. The general relationship between time near the beginning when stable matter formed from the light (the energy, the electromagnetic radiation) of the creation) and time today is a million million, that is a trillion fold extension.

      That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. It is a unit-less ratio. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see it every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe. In astronomy, the term is "red shift." Red shift in observed astronomical data is standard.

     The Torah doesn't say every second, does it? It says Six Days. How would we see those six days? If the Torah says we're sending information for six days, would we receive that information as six days? No. We would receive that information as six million million days. Because the Torah's perspective is from the beginning looking forward.

     Six million million days is a very interesting number. What would that be in years? Divide by 365 and it comes out to be 16 billion years. Essentially the estimate of the age of the universe. Not a bad guess for 3300 years ago.

     The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step.
Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.

     (In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)

The calculations come out to be as follows:

The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.

The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.

The third 24 hour day also included half of the previous day, 2 billion years.

The fourth 24 hour day -- one billion years.

The fifth 24 hour day -- one-half billion years.

The sixth 24 hour day -- one-quarter billion years.

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.

http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Age_of_the_Universe.asp
http://

The article is interesting reading, this man, I believe, is sincere in trying to straighten out the Genesis story, I can not wait to see the videos from Ray's last conference. It kind of sounds like Ray and Dr. Schroeder are headed in the same general direction.





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musicman

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2008, 03:27:55 PM »

Dr. Schroeder runs into many problems on the 5th and 6th day.  The fifth day would start before the Cambrian Explosian (about 750 million years ago).  And the sixth day (250 million years ago)?  Well, don't think man was created with the dinosaurs.  To take such a mathmatical stance on creation, one must demand absolute conformity in the length of the creation days.  We might be able to push day six back about 60 million years.  So my count would have day six lasting another 190 million years with Schroeder's theory.  Personally, I can't reconcile science with Schroeder's theory.    That is unless Schroeder isn't literal in the amount of time each day requires.  But wait, if his theory is based on a 24 hour time period at the edge of the universe, then the periods he has proposed here on Earth cannot be deviated from.  As of now, I am more inclined to go with the hypothesis pushed by Hugh Ross.

I do think that we are in day 7 because no new species of life have been shown to come into exisistence since the dawn of man (I could be wrong).  Besides, I think day eight will be the new beginning when all are saved.  Some will experience day eight before others.  Just my thinking.

 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 03:32:15 PM by musicman »
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AK4

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2008, 04:23:48 PM »

Just some food for thought

Now Ray was pointing out the evening was disorder and morning was order.  What if when Jesus first came was the end of another day--He was order and brought order in regards to how to come to the Father, but some time after His resurrection (maybe a little bit after Pentecost) thats when evening came when the church started getting persecuted and false doctrines and greivous wolfs entered.

Basically with this thought we are in an evening now and when He returns, boom another morning/age.  This scenerio can fit since age is an indeterminite time.  I know this doesnt say what day that it could possibly be, but maybe if we counted backwards from Jesus death to to creation maybe we might have something

I cant figure it out right now because Im at work and besides it would really be just speculation anyway.

Anthony
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aqrinc

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2008, 04:50:20 PM »

Just my 2 cents worth from another newbie, this subject is now moving into the intriguing realm.
All contributors please keep going in the spirit of teaching and learning, there is so much already
offered here that dovetails well with Ray's Teachings at the Nashville 07 & 08 conference.
This could actually be the genus of understanding if we keep our personalities out and stay within
the forums guidelines.

Just my 2 cents; In Christ,

Geo.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 02:44:19 AM by aqr »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2008, 04:58:47 PM »

Agreed, George.

Some observations from the natural that were touched briefly by Ray.

1.  It's always evening AND morning somewhere on the earth.

2.  Evening and morning are transitions.

Does morning arrive at any point on earth when light from the sun illuminates the atmosphere, making it visible?  Or does morning arrive when direct light from the sun appears over the horizon?  Does it end then?  Or does it end when the sun appears fully over the horizon?

As for me, I am thrilled to stand in awe and stick with amazement.  I'm in no hurry for religion in the form of hastily constructed, opposing doctrines to take that joy away.  Joy comes in the morning, after all.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

WhoAmI

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2008, 08:22:14 PM »

Ec 3:1 To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:

All has it's place, and each it's purpose. It is all very amazing.


Jeff
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Imabeliever

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2008, 09:10:55 PM »

Enigmoxical, I dont know if you noticed, but I am seeing these six's your talking about associated with man and I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the human number referred to as 666? I'm not trying to change the subject ,just curious about this! I think I'll start a different post and see what we can find out about these six's and humanity! Sorry for the change in subjects. god Bless! :)
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E. Woods

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2008, 11:05:58 PM »


Adam means man, and in many places the Hebrew word refers to mankind in general. Genesis 1:27, for example, says, “So God created man [adam] in His own image; He created him in the image of God; He created them male and female [see also Genesis 5:2; 6:1]. Adam is also used of the first man, either with the article as “the man” (Genesis 2:15,16) or as the name “Adam” (Genesis 4:1,25; 5:3,4). Finally, the term can refer to a member of the human race, “a man” (e.g., Genesis 2:5, “there was no man to work the ground”).

"Six" is the number of man. And because of this, I believe we are still in the sixth day. For when was there ever a point in time when God stopped creating men?

“Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)

“Yet He is not partial to princes, nor dies He regard the rich more than the poor; for they are all the work of His hands.” (Job 34:19)

“Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? (Malachi 2:10)


Peace


Here is an excerpt from Ray's bible study regarding 'Keeping the Sabbath':

  GOD IS YET CEASING FROM THE WORKS HE COMPLETED


Gen 2:2  And F I N I S H I N G is the Elohim, on the sixth day, His works which He does.   And ceasing is He on the seventh day from ALL HIS W O R K which He does.” (Concordant Version)

The works ARE finished and God IS ceasing from all those works of physical creation of the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that in them is. 

Now all this ties in with keeping the seventh day, a day of rest.  If God is still ceasing from all the works that were finished, He does that on the seventh day. 
This still must be the seventh day of God’s ceasing! 

We don’t read of anything where God began creating some other part of the physical universe on the eighth day or the ninth day or any such thing, nowhere.  We are now into God’s SPIRITUAL creation… making man in God’s very own spiritual image.

The idea behind the seventh day is it represents rest.  Israel was told to rest every seventh day of a weekly cycle.  But it represents something.  It was a law, they had to rest, it’s the forth commandment, it’s a law.

Heb 10:1  For the law (part of the... remember the Sabbath and keep it holy) having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things…

The shadow is not the image itself.  So in some ways it’s almost worthless, except it points you to something. 



Marques
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enigmoxical

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2008, 12:39:29 AM »

Another scripture to contemplate:

Hebrews 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

This is telling me that I am now in His rest, the Sabbath day, the 7th day

What is your take on this?
I believe this is a two-fold prophecy:

1) We have peace of mind in Christ when we come to a knowledge of the Truth. In this respect, we HAVE entered into His rest.

2) But this is also a prophecy of the great Sabbath Rest (day seven) true believers will enjoy when they inherit the earth, at the time of the first resurrection:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4,5b,6)

Only the elect will enter into this rest. But where are the unrighteous during this period of time?

"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." (Rev. 20:5a)

There is no seventh day of rest for the unrighteous. They remain in outer darkness (the grave) during the millennial kingdom age. And the author of Hebrews goes on to explain quite nicely why some DO enter into this rest, while others DON'T:

"Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

'So I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest,'

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this place: 'They shall not enter My rest.'

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, 'Today,' after such a long time, as it has been said:

'Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.'

For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience." (Heb. 4:1-11)

The consummation (I Cor 15:28) will mark a new beginning (day eight):

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16)

I might be wrong, but this is currently the way I see things.

Peace

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enigmoxical

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2008, 12:55:30 AM »

Dr. Schroeder runs into many problems on the 5th and 6th day.  The fifth day would start before the Cambrian Explosian (about 750 million years ago).  And the sixth day (250 million years ago)?  Well, don't think man was created with the dinosaurs.  To take such a mathmatical stance on creation, one must demand absolute conformity in the length of the creation days.  We might be able to push day six back about 60 million years.  So my count would have day six lasting another 190 million years with Schroeder's theory.  Personally, I can't reconcile science with Schroeder's theory.    That is unless Schroeder isn't literal in the amount of time each day requires.  But wait, if his theory is based on a 24 hour time period at the edge of the universe, then the periods he has proposed here on Earth cannot be deviated from.  As of now, I am more inclined to go with the hypothesis pushed by Hugh Ross.

I do think that we are in day 7 because no new species of life have been shown to come into exisistence since the dawn of man (I could be wrong).  Besides, I think day eight will be the new beginning when all are saved.  Some will experience day eight before others.  Just my thinking.

 
I do not see where the Genesis account conflicts with Schroeder's theory at all. Genesis One simply says  animals were created on day 5 and humans on day 6. It never says exactly WHEN on day 5 the creation of animals began, nor does it say exactly WHEN on day 6 the creation of humans began. Only that it DID.

Peace
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musicman

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Re: How Long Has Man Been On Earth
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2008, 01:50:37 AM »

According to what I've read on his theory, it seems that day one would last 8 bil, day 2 would last 4 bil, day 3 would last 2 bil, day 4 would last 1 bil, day 5 would last 500 mil and day 6 would last 250 mil years.  And the reason is because if from God's perspective, 24 hours = a set amount of time on Earth, which is cut in half every day, or every time the universe doubles in size, this would leave day 6 with at least another 190 million years.  I don't think the people of this world can manage another 500 years at the rate were going.  If somebody can tell me why day six wouldn't have to conform to Schroeder's theory, where it would last 250 million years, then perhaps I can reconsider this theory.  But let's face it.  Day 6 could not have started more than about 60 million years ago.  If day 5 was a 24 hour period for God and day 6 is also a 24 hour period, just when is this 24 hour period (assuming we're in day 6) going to end.  Remember, if day 5 is 500 million years to us, then day 6 would have to be 250 million years under Schroader's theory.  Someone wanna sort all of this out for me? 
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