Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[David]

You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,

      “ And My servant whom I have chosen,
      That you may know and believe Me,
      And understand that I am He.
      Before Me there was no God formed,
      Nor shall there be after Me.

 I find the inclusion of this word "formed" here very intersting.

יצר
yâtsar
yaw-tsar'
probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape); (compare H3331); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively to determine (that is, form a resolution): -  X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make (-r), potter, purpose.

Is this saying that God formed Christ? Or something completely different? Anyone have any thoughts?

[Martinez]

In my understanding (limited) I would think that this talking about Christ too.

As far as I can ascertain from the bible, Christ is a created being and not from all eternity like God as the church teaches

[Heidi]

Commentary from Wesley's Notes:

"43:10 Ye - You my people are able to witness for me, that I have given you plain demonstrations of my certain knowledge of future events. My servant - Cyrus who is an eminent instance and proof of God's foreknowledge: or, the Messiah, who is the most eminent witness in this cause. Understand - That I am the true God. Nor after me - The gods of the Heathens neither had a being before me nor shall continue after me: whereas the Lord is God from everlasting to everlasting; but these pretenders are but of yesterday. And withal he calls them formed gods, in a way of contempt, and to shew the ridiculousness of their pretence."[/i]

Also "formed-before I existed none of the false gods were formed. "Formed" applies to the idols, not to God. Re 1:11 uses the same language to prove the Godhead of Jesus, as Isaiah here to prove the Godhead of Jehovah." (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary)

IMO: God was never formed, He IS AND we know that Jesus is God, so this verse to me proofs that God is not something fashioned out of manmade abilities (like the idols or other gods).  He is sovereign.

Love
Heidi

[Dave in Tenn]

Just for more reference, Young's Literal Translation.

Isa 43:10  Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.

'Jehovah' is a transliteration from the Hebrew.  'God' translated from H410 אל 'êl.
 

[Richard D]

Martinez.

Waite a minute, I don’t understand, you said Christ is a created being? How can Christ be God if he’s created?

How can this be? I just don’t understand Jesus being created. He has no beginning or ending.

[indianabob]

Well,

We have some apparent choices here.
Either God is a unity or a binity or a trinity.  Or none of these exactly.
Let's say trinity is out.
If God the Father has always existed and Jesus the son has always existed then we have two Gods or a binity (?)

If God is one and there is no other creator or being that has always existed
and never was formed, then we have to explain God's only begotten son Jesus.

If Jesus was God or of the God family from before the worlds "kosmos" were made
AND if Jesus has not always existed as has the Father, then at some point Jesus was created or formed.  Perhaps by God the Father and of the same essense (?) definition is to be decided later.

If Jesus is now God (most think he is), then Jesus has been made God according to the will of the Father who is unity or the one who always was God.  So, perhaps it is correct to say that God the Father formed Jesus and at that point Jesus began to exist.

There are yet two main schools of thought on this topic.
Either God the Father created/formed His son before the worlds were
OR God the Father formed Jesus in the womb of Mary.
In either instance, Jesus is NOW God in the sense that God the Father has given Jesus all power in heaven and in earth.  In a similar sense, God the Father through the authority of His son Jesus will grant and give each of His elect similar status and authority at some point in our development and induction into the very family of God.

If Jesus created the worlds with power given to him by the Father and was the governing force of material creation and animals and mankind etc. then we have another way of thinking about this thought problem.

There are so many ideas floating around out there that could be partly correct or not correct at all, that we perhaps need to seek counsel before we get too deep into this.

Ray has some information on this topic, but I can't recall where it is found.

Perhaps Craig and Kathy can help

Bob

[mharrell08]

Here is an excerpt from Ray's paper exposing the Trinity as a false doctrine:

Who and What is Jesus Christ?

    Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

    "Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

    "Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

    "The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

    "The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

    "God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

    "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

    "Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

    "Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:.

And also:

    Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

    "And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

    "lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

    "Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"

    "Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

    "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

    "Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.

Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:

    "Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).

    "Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).

    "And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).

    "I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).

    "Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).

These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.

Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.

Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:

    "I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).

Notice that the holy spirit is NO PART of this analogy. Now seriously, if the holy spirit were a third personality or god of the trinity, then why does it have NO PART in so many dozens and dozens of Scriptures like this one? Surely if there is a trinity, the holy spirit could represent maybe the soil, or the sunshine, or the rain, or at least be some part of this analogy with the Father, the Son, and the Saints, don’t you think? But no! The holy spirit is not mentioned. That is because it is not necessary for it to be mentioned, and also because it is not a third god of a trinity.


Marques

[mharrell08]

I know no one was implying a Trinity, I was just recalling the title for those who may not have known.


Marques

[musicman]

So, basically what confuses me are the Isaiah scriptures quoted by Rodger.  I wonder how the God of the OT can say, besides me there is no God.  We've learned that the God of the OT has to be Christ.  So how can there be no other?  Where's the Father in all of this?

[Kat]

Here is a excerpt from the transcript of the 2007 Nashville Conference "Who and What is Jesus and Who is the Father?'  This is just one point out of eighteen that Ray made explaining who Jesus Christ was.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38212.html#msg38212 ---

[7] “For though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;  But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

Everything, “all things” are out 'of ' God.
The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist (to get out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS."  If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus.  Where is Jesus Christ 'from'?  Is He some 'thing'?  He is the grandest thing of all.  “All things,” are ek ex from the Father.  So where did Christ come from?  It says “all things” are of or out of (ek ex) God.  And there is only one God, the Father, and we in Him.  “and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom” that means through or the channel of.  There it is! 

Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God.  But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why?  He’s the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity.  Because God can’t come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldn’t face Him either, it would have blown you away.  But He emptied Himself.  Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17) 

So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or by Jesus Christ, that He channeled everything that there is.
-----------------------------------------------------

Audios 3 'Who is Jesus.'
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_3.mp3

Audio 4 'Where did Jesus come from?'
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_4.mp3

Audio 5 'One God.'
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_5.mp3

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Kat]

Hi Musicman,

This is from the same transcript of the 2007 Nashville Conference.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38212.html#msg38212 ---

"There is ONE GOD" (I Cor.8:5); "God is SPIRIT" (John 6:24);

"by ONE SPIRIT  baptized into one body" (I Co. 12:13);

"But he that is joined unto the Lord IS ONE SPIRIT" (I Cor. 6:17); "I and My Father are ONE" (John 10:30)

"There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in ONE HOPE, of your calling; ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, Who is ABOVE ALL, and THROUGH ALL, and IN YOU ALL" (Eph. 4:4-6).

HENCE: WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT JESUS, WE KNOW ABOUT HIS FATHER

Jesus spoke the words of His Father and did the works of His Father (John 14:10 & 14:24 & 5:19).

Jesus Christ "declares the FATHER" (John 1:18). And reveals the Father to whomever the Son desires (Matt. 11:27). Jesus was revealing the Father to the disciples His whole ministry, but Phillip missed is: (John 14:9-11). Remember when Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM"? (John 8:58). He was also revealing HIMSELF as the God of the Old Testament.

Jesus Christ IS THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT!
He is THE GOD OF THE BIBLE!
Jesus Christ is the ONLY REVELATION OF GOD THAT WE HAVE.
Even the Holy Spirit we all have comes from God THROUGH Jesus Christ.
Jesus is that Comforter, that Spirit.
Our Saviour and our Brother.
The Son of God.
-----------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Rene]

So, basically what confuses me are the Isaiah scriptures quoted by Rodger.  I wonder how the God of the OT can say, besides me there is no God.  We've learned that the God of the OT has to be Christ.  So how can there be no other?  Where's the Father in all of this?

Dan,

Maybe this email reply from Ray will help in your understanding.

René


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3052.0.html

Hi Ray,

    Do you believe that Jesus is God?  If so, how can he be God if the Father is?

    Chris

    P.S I know that you don't believe in the trinity but I'm sure it said in one of your papers that Jesus is God. :-)

Dear Christopher:

 "God" is not the personal last name of Jesus' Father. God is more like a title, more like "Christ," which is not Jesus' last name either, but a title--Jesus is THE CHRIST, and Jesus is GOD.

    If One is:

    THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH (Col. 1:15-18)

    POSSESSING IMMORTAL LIFE.(John 17:1-3)

    HAS ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH (Matt. 28:18)

    Then that One IS GOD!  Jesus filfills all three of those

    statements of fact, as does His Father. That is why

    Both Jesus and His Father are ONE (John 10:30).

    God be with you,

    Ray

[musicman]

While Christ possesses everything that the Father has, it's my understanding that Christ is an individual and not the same as God the Father.  My problem is not in calling Christ God.  I guess my issue is in "besides me there is no God". 

Perhaps this means that there is no other personality that is God besides the One.  Or that Christ (Jehovah) is speaking for the Father.  After all, they are One in spirit.

[Kat]

Hi Musicman,

Isa 45:5 I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else. There is no Elohim except Me. I am belting you, yet you do not know Me. (CLV)

This is from the 2006 Mobile Conference transcript, first audio 'WHAT IS "THE FATHER'S WILL?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=1948.0 -------

Back to verse 5.  How can there be no other God besides Jehovah? 
He is Yahweh and Elohim is part of Yahweh. 

So He says I am the Lord and there is no God besides Me. 
Now when it says, in the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth, it’s a plural.  That’s why God said let US be making man in OUR image.  How can one person say Us and Our?  It’s because God is from the Hebrew word Elohim and it’s plural.  Jehovah is part of that plurality.
 
He is part of the us, so really there is no us, but whoever God represents, is us.  Sometimes He even represents us, as an angel of the Lord, but sometimes I have a feeling that it’s Jehovah, but it could be a special angel of the Lord, that is not Jehovah.  And when He speaks on behalf of God, people took that as God.
 
Like an ambassador of our country, you would represent your country, tho you are not our country, you are the highest representative of your country.
 
But Jehovah is part of the Elohim, the One God.
----------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat