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Author Topic: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?  (Read 11848 times)

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AK4

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Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« on: October 04, 2008, 12:18:17 AM »

After listening to the 8th audio from the conference it makes me wonder, Did Jesus have to experience evil or an evil also to know what good is?  Is He learning patience now or did He have it before at least the formation of Adam?  I guess that last question can go with the first one too?

Just thinking out loud without thinking

Anthony



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AK4

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2008, 02:10:18 AM »

Oh its starting to make a littles sense now.  Jesus came with infirmaties to also experience the physical of what we experience (the evil)(same as us having to have an experience of evil) and has already been longsuffering for us to be like Him, "mentally" like we longsuffer to be like Him.

I think?!

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chuckt

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2008, 11:33:12 AM »

Luk 2:40  And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Jesus would have experienced ""evil"" dosent mean he did evil.

one can not walk this earth and NOT experience evil.

peace
chuckt
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AK4

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2008, 12:01:18 PM »

That is exactly what i was saying.  Im pretty sure Jesus didnt have the infirmaties all His life, but when the time came He started experiencing the evil personally on and in His body. 
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Falconn003

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2008, 11:36:04 PM »

Hmmmmm....even at birth.....one sought to murder Jesus.

And yet to walk the Earth at that.

:)
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enigmoxical

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2008, 10:20:04 AM »

Jesus already knew the difference between good and evil before He arrived on planet earth: 

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

After all, He Himself created it, not for His own benefit, but for ours:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is becoming as one of us, to know good and evil." (Genesis 3:22)

We are the ones who need to learn of these things, not He. Which is why we all MUST partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (a symbol for the world).

Peace
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enigmoxical

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2008, 01:02:49 AM »

What is the purpose for this life? To learn of good and evil. When we read the morning paper, we learn of good and evil. When we watch the evening news, we learn of good and evil. All throughout the course of our lives in this WORLD, we learn of good and evil. We don't learn of good and evil by eating a piece of fruit from a tree in a garden. And neither did Adam and Eve. The Genesis 3 story is a PARABLE, not literal history. Even Ray teaches that Scripture is a parable. And I am quite certain that he would agree with me here.

Peace
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enigmoxical

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2008, 12:15:31 AM »

That's right, Rodger. Everything this world has to offer - the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life - IS the fruit of this WORLD (which IS the tree of the knowledge of good and evil):

"It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." (Ecc. 1:13; Concordant Literal Version)

But Christianity errs by teaching that the Genesis 3 story is a literal, historic event, when in fact it IS nothing but a parable. And parables are FICTITIOUS stories (see Strong's Concordance).

So Rodger, how have I (in your own words) made this parable "carnal?"

Peace
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Chris R

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 12:59:43 AM »

Hello Folks,

What is meant when we speak of parables?, take a look at this words definition

par·a·ble: a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like. nowere in this part of the definition does it state the story is either fiction, or non fiction.

Ray has stated that the Bible is "LIKE" a parable... in that some of the stories written are true factual stories, yet have a much higher spiritual meaning. Was there really a Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? Did they get thrown into a firey furnace literally?.. Scipture indicates yes..this is a factual true story....but is it a parable of Rev 2:11, which in itself is another parable.....

And some of the stories written are referenced as a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, but are based on a fictional story, such as the prodigal son.

Both are parables, one based on a literal story, the other on a fictional story. Either way. both stories convey a meaning indirectly by use of comparison.

Peace

Chris R
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enigmoxical

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2008, 12:34:09 PM »

Hello Folks,

What is meant when we speak of parables?, take a look at this words definition

par·a·ble: a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like. nowere in this part of the definition does it state the story is either fiction, or non fiction.


Here's how Strong's Concordance defines it (G3850): a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbol.) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a mor.), apothegm or adage:-comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

No theologian I know of will argue that the Tree of Life is a symbol for Jesus Christ. And yet, these same theologians will argue that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a symbol, but a literal tree, and its fruit was not symbolic, but real literal fruit that Adam and Eve weren't supposed to eat. Hence comes their false doctrine of "original sin," that Adam and Eve really DID do something contrary to God's will. Is there a problem with this?

"For who hath resisted His will?" (Rom. 9:19)

"For it is God who works in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure." (Php. 2:13)

To say that Adam and Eve resisted God's will is to call Paul a liar. So although literal stories CAN be used to convey deeper moral or spiritual truths, it is clear that the Genesis 3 story CANNOT be literal, it MUST be a parable; otherwise the scriptures contradict.

Peace
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Falconn003

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2008, 12:40:24 PM »

That's right, Rodger. Everything this world has to offer - the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life - IS the fruit of this WORLD (which IS the tree of the knowledge of good and evil):

"It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." (Ecc. 1:13; Concordant Literal Version)

But Christianity errs by teaching that the Genesis 3 story is a literal, historic event, when in fact it IS nothing but a parable. And parables are FICTITIOUS stories (see Strong's Concordance).

So Rodger, how have I (in your own words) made this parable "carnal?"

Peace


Hmmmmm.... i already did explain/ed,,,,,what more do you need/want ? And not in my OWN words..... !

Rodger
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 12:43:52 PM by Falconn003 »
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ScarletWren

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2008, 07:56:31 PM »

With regard to the tree.....why can't it be literal?  Not that I think actually eating the fruit instilled the knowledge in and of itself, but once they ate, then they knew what it was to disobey and thus they began to realize right from wrong....ergo good and evil. Sort of like a child eating the cookie from the cookie jar the first chance he got.  Then when he is caught, he realizes he did something "bad."   I believe most of what the Bible says is literal, it's just that those particular stories (out of thousands of similar ones) were given to the writers because they also pictured something of prophecy, as in Joseph prefiguring Christ, etc. etc.  The story of Ruth pictures the kinsman-redeemer. (And Ruth and Boaz were listed in the Messiah's genealogy).  Scripture goes into great detail to describe the serpent's role in tempting Eve.  There were probably many transgressions prior to this, but it wasn't until God said not to do something and they did it anyway, did it become apparent that there were seeds of rebellion within.  Just my thoughts which aren't very scientific.

I haven't read/listened to any of the recent conference so I don't know what was said about the flood but it will have to be very good to dissuade me.   I guess I still retain somewhat of a childish awe of scripture.  It would take a lot to dissuade me otherwise.  Of course Revelation is spiritual.  And the parables of Jesus were not literal and certain other stories that were told as such in scripture.  But right in the beginning of Revelation John says it was a vision and "signified."  Good thoughts on everyone's part though, very interesting.  And I have been known to change my mind in certain areas, lol  I know that the Bible wasn't written to give us the answers to the how and why of all our questions that we have at this time, Jesus could have given us a lot more answers and commands if that were His intention.  It's nice to know tho that someday the veil will be lifted.  He created us to wonder and search, praise Him for His great and awesome wisdom.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2008, 08:09:49 PM »


Of this you can be certain. If the church teaches it, it is not just wrong, it is 180 degrees wrong.

Dennis
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ScarletWren

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2008, 08:19:46 PM »


If the church teaches it, it is wrong, Dennis?  Wow, as much as I dislike much of what most churches teach I wouldn't go so far as to imply everything they teach is wrong. 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2008, 08:44:42 PM »

Hi Scarlet,

Can you name a doctrine that they have gotten right, even just one?

Peace,

Joe

P.S. We have been down this road before, here is a thread that tackled this question;

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5130.0.html
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 09:06:53 PM by hillsbororiver »
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ScarletWren

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2008, 09:11:15 PM »

I wouldn't be so brash as to say that I have the correct doctrinal view on every issue so I wouldn't begin to address that issue, but they teach more than just doctrines.  They do teach of God's love, albeit they may not understand it in its entirety but then do we?  How can we?  They teach us to love our enemies. Again, it may not be the exact way that Christ taught it, but it still is taught. That is what Satan is so good at, sowing tares in the wheat so there must be some wheat in there. Could you give me a list of EVERY doctine there is?  Do you have one?  Which doctrines do you have to understand the truth of completely to begin to teach or minister to a group of people?  I don't assemble with orthodox churches, I am not really trying to defend them.  But I could never say that nothing they teach is correct.

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hillsbororiver

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2008, 09:13:55 PM »

Hi Scarlet,

Believe me I empathize with you, it is very difficult if not impossible to come up with anything they have right, it has virtually all been leavened with the dung of man.

Peace,

Joe
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Falconn003

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2008, 09:20:10 PM »

I wouldn't be so brash as to say that I have the correct doctrinal view on every issue so I wouldn't begin to address that issue, but they teach more than just doctrines.  They do teach of God's love, albeit they may not understand it in its entirety but then do we?  How can we?  They teach us to love our enemies. Again, it may not be the exact way that Christ taught it, but it still is taught. That is what Satan is so good at, sowing tares in the wheat so there must be some wheat in there. Could you give me a list of EVERY doctine there is?  Do you have one?  Which doctrines do you have to understand the truth of completely to begin to teach or minister to a group of people?  I don't assemble with orthodox churches, I am not really trying to defend them.  But I could never say that nothing they teach is correct.




Brilliant !
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mharrell08

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2008, 10:16:42 PM »

Hello Scarlet,

Here is an excerpt from Ray's Lake of Fire pt. 2 paper (http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html):

THEY SPEAK WITH FORKED TONGUE

Most all Christian theologians would claim to believe the first statement of Scriptural Truth that I present below, especially when I cite a Scripture verse with it, but they will then contradict and refuse to teach the second statement of Truth. Here are a few examples:

Do they believe the fire in I Cor.3:15 burns mans’ works, but not the man himself? Yes.

But do they teach that this same fire in Rev.20:15 also burns works, not the man? No.

Do they believe that God is the Creator of ALL? Yes.

But do they teach that God created EVIL as He says in (Isa. 45:7)? No.

Do they believe that God is absolutely and totally sovereign (Eph. 1:11)? Yes.

But do they teach that God exercises sovereignty over man’s supposed "free" will? No.

Do they believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world (I Jn 4:14)? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ will SAVE the whole world? No.

Do they believe that presently Christ only has immortality (I Tim. 6:16)? Yes.

But do they teach the truth therefore that men’s souls are mortal and not immortal? No.

Do they believe that the original manuscripts of God’s Word were inerrant? Yes.

But do they teach us that the King James translation, which they say is "inerrant" has gone through THOUSANDS of error corrections since 1611? No.

Do they believe that the soul that sins shall DIE (Ezek. 18:4)? Yes.

But do they teach that souls of deceased sinners are actually DEAD? No.

Do they believe there are many cults today that need exposing? Yes.

But do they teach that Christendom, by its OWN definitions, is also a cult? No.

Do they believe that Sodom is "suffering the vengeance of eternal [aeonian] fire? Yes.

But do they teach that Sodom will be restored to their former estate (Ezek. 16:55)? No.

Do they believe in a future resurrection of dead people back to life (John 5:29)? Yes.

But do they teach that a resurrection is imperative for dead people to live again? No.

Do they believe the first half of I Cor. 15:22 that "For as in Adam ALL die?" Yes.

But do they teach the last half, "even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive?" No.

Do they believe that "...the end of the world [Gk: aion -- age]" ends in Mat. 24:3? Yes.

But do they teach that this same "aion -- age" in Matt. 25:41 & 46 will also end. No.

Do they believe that Jn 3:13 & Acts 2:34 are truthful Scripture (II Tim. 3:16)? Yes.

But do they teach this truth that "NO man," including David, has gone to heaven? No.

Do they believe ALL God purposed, spoke, and willed (Isa. 46:10-11), He will do? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s "will" to save all, I Tim. 2:4, etc., will be done? No.

Do they believe that Satan lied when he told Eve, "thou shalt not surely die?" Yes.

But do they teach the truth that sinners really do DIE at death as God has stated? No.

Do they believe that the Apocryphal books do not belong in the Bible? Yes.

But do they teach us that the 1611 so-called "inerrant" King James Bible contained fourteen such books, including "Tobit," "Judith," "The idol Bel and the Dragon"? No.

Do they believe that Christ is totally responsibility for our salvation? Yes.

But do they teach that "no man can" come to Christ of himself (John 6:44)? No.

Do they believe that Satan is the greatest sinner of all? Yes.

But do they teach Jn. 8:44 which states that Satan "sinned from the beginning?" No.

Do they believe Christ really died for the sins of the world? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ was dead when they placed Him in the tomb? No.

Do they believe the many Scriptures that liken death to "sleep?" Yes.

But do they teach that dead people are unconscious, "sleeping" till resurrection? No.

Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.

But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.

Do they believe that all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27)? Yes.

But do they teach that it is possible for God to save nonbelievers after they die? No.

Do they believe that every tongue in heaven and earth will confess Jesus as LORD? Yes.

But do they teach that the Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act (I Cor. 12:3)? No.

Do they believe that good and evil are both in the same tree of knowledge? Yes

But do they teach that good and evil both come from the same root source? No.

Do they believe that God absolutely "knows all" (I John 3:20)? Yes.

But do they teach that God knows in advance ALL who will reject Christ? No.

Do they believe that God’s love will never fail ( I Cor. 13:8 )? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s love will never fail in saving the world He loves? No.

Do they believe the apostles spoke in foreign languages in Acts 2:4-11? Yes.

But do they teach that of the hundreds of thousands who claim to speak in tongues today, not one of them can speak in multiple languages which they did not already study? No.

Do they believe that the masses did not understand Christ’s parables (Mat. 13:13)? Yes.

But do they teach that Christ purposely didn’t want them to understand, (Vs. 14-17)? No.

Do they believe the Old Covenant contained the Ten Commandments (Deut.4:12)? Yes.

But do they teach a New Covenant which contains a much higher law (Heb. 8:8-9)? No.

Do they believe that God created all the spirits and messengers of heaven? Yes.

But do they teach that God also created Satan who was always His adversary? No.

Do they believe that loving our enemies means doing good and not evil to them? Yes.

But do they teach that God will never subject His enemies to eternal torture and evil? No.

There seems to be no end to the Scriptural contradictions of Christian beliefs. But we can learn from their mistakes. It is good for us that God makes us dig deep for the precious gems of His word. It really is like searching for hidden treasure. And I have never found a hidden treasure in God’s Word that has disappointed me. Each new discovery brings more appreciation for God and His plan of salvation for all.


Also, I would recommend listening to Ray's bible study entitled 'Despising the Word of God' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html) from Apr 2008.

I wouldn't be so brash as to say that I have the correct doctrinal view on every issue so I wouldn't begin to address that issue, but they teach more than just doctrines.  They do teach of God's love, albeit they may not understand it in its entirety but then do we?  How can we?  They teach us to love our enemies. Again, it may not be the exact way that Christ taught it, but it still is taught. That is what Satan is so good at, sowing tares in the wheat so there must be some wheat in there. Could you give me a list of EVERY doctine there is?  Do you have one?  Which doctrines do you have to understand the truth of completely to begin to teach or minister to a group of people?  I don't assemble with orthodox churches, I am not really trying to defend them.  But I could never say that nothing they teach is correct.

I wouldn't go so far to say that members here are 'brash' or high-minded regarding the church. The church does not teach of God's love because they then say in the same breath He will send most of humanity to burn in some fabled hell for trillions of years unending. That's not love.

And you stated about the church teaching to love our enemies but not the exact way Christ taught. Then if it is not how Christ taught it, who IS truth, then the way they teach is not the truth or in other words a lie.

God calls His people out of the church. So that leaves only the tares.

The only true doctrine is the doctrine that Christ taught [Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me....John7:16] All other doctrines are man-made, false doctrines. Remember, the Holy Spirit leads those into 'all truth' [John 16:13] not some truth mixed with lies.

I know you're not trying to defend them but maintain a humble, non-elitist attitude. I understand and respect that. But there is no grey area when it comes to the truth.


Hope this helps,

Marques

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 10:20:30 PM by mharrell08 »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did Jesus have to learn what evil was to know good?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2008, 12:18:07 AM »

Scarlet has a point:

Php 1:18  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Dennis
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