in spirit and truth

[Amrhrasach]

LOF Part XI

"We have got to get out of the depths of Satan if we are to worship God in Spirit and Truth. The Church is filled with the depths of Satan. That is not the place to go to worship God in spirit and truth. Did Jesus go to the synagogues to worship His God?"

and this:

"And although the Church has the milk of the word, they also have "the DEPTHS of Satan" in their "minds and hearts." It is but the remainder, the few, "the rest in Thyratira," and therefore, the rest in the seven churches, "which HAVE NOT this doctrine, and which HAVE NOT known [in their 'minds and hearts'] THE DEPTHS OF SATAN."

and this:

"The church that appears to be so good, with good doctrines, and good teachings and spiritual appearing good works and righteousness, which in reality are abominations:"

and this:

"We are not asked by God to "leave His Church," but rather to move from the carnal Jerusalem church under bondage to the spiritual Jerusalem church which is free. We certainly make every effort to fellowship with believers of like mind, but let us never forget where our true fellowship is.

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ" (I John 1:3)."

*>*>*>

Now.  So I can be CRYSTAL on this.   

I WANT to worship the father and the son in "spirit and truth".  How is this accomplished?   Is this accomplished simply by "coming out"?  Or put another way, now knowing the "truth" is my worship now.....converted....if you will for lack of a better term, to a worshipping/praying in spirit and truth, simply from the "coming out"?

To the veterans, please expand this for me so I can box this in my thinking.

A.

[mharrell08]

Now.  So I can be CRYSTAL on this.   

I WANT to worship the father and the son in "spirit and truth".  How is this accomplished?   Is this accomplished simply by "coming out"?  Or put another way, now knowing the "truth" is my worship now.....converted....if you will for lack of a better term, to a worshipping/praying in spirit and truth, simply from the "coming out"?

To the veterans, please expand this for me so I can box this in my thinking.

A.

Hello A,

Here is a link to Ray's bible study called 'Worship in Spirit & Truth' : http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5312.0.html


Here is also an excerpt from this same study:

John 17:17  "...Thy Word is truth."

You have to worship Him according to the scriptures, because it's true.  I found this to be interesting, John says, Your Word is truth, and in the OT in Isaiah 8 it says;

Isa 8:20  To the Law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because no light is in them.

So we have the spiritual law of God (Romans 7: 14 says, the law is spiritual), and we have the testimony.  The testimony that we are familiar with is the testimony of Jesus Christ.  Because He's the Logos, He's the One that does the speaking.  If they don't speak according to this Word, it's because there is no light in them. 

Strong says that 'light' means the Dawn or Dayspring.  2 Peter 1:19 talks about the "Day Star in your hearts."  Rev. 2:28; 22:16 says Jesus is the Day Star or the Morning Star.  The One that comes with the dawn, the shining of the new light of the day, that's Jesus.  So if we speak NOT according to the law of Jesus Christ and the testimony of Jesus Christ, there is no light in us.  Well who is that Light - that Morning Star - that Dawning Light - that Day Star?  It's Jesus Christ!  So what it is saying is, if you don't speak and live and obey according to this Word, guess what?  There is no Jesus Christ in you.  He is that Light.  If you don't obey like Jesus Christ did, in spirit and truth, there is no Jesus Christ in you. 

Now to really nail this thing, this statement of Christ, in Luke is one of the most profound scriptures in all the Bible.

Luke 6:46  And why call you Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Why call Me 'LORD, LORD' - that is an acknowledgement of somebody far superior.  That is an act of worship, like when you say, your majesty - your highness, you bow, you curtsey, that's an act of worship. "Lord, Lord"  double Lord, that's an act of worship an acknowledges that this is your Master Master, your Teacher - your Master - your Lord.  Christ says, why do you worship Me by calling Me Lord Lord and do not the things which I say (paraphrased).  Lord Lord is worship.  But if you don't do what He says it's useless, it's worthless. 

So you only need to take one thing away with you here today. 
WORSHIP IS OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S WORD, which is Light and that Light is Christ.  If you don't live by it there is NO Light in you, there is NO Christ in you.  It all comes down to obedience.

Now think about this for a minute.  I mean our judgment is now, we are before the judgment seat of Christ now, judgment is upon the House of God now (1Peter 4:17).

Let's look at this judgment the way the church does.  They say, 'you know it's coming a day when all, one by one, will go up and you will tell your life story.  Every idle word is brought into account and for 50 billion people.'  How many thousands of years would that take anyway?? 

But can you imagine God saying - 'you know (calling anybody by name) you really were obedient to Me, you always did what was right, no matter how hard it was, you did what you knew was right and that is commendable.  However you didn't wave your hands, you didn't fall over backwards and foam at the mouth, I'm so upset with you.' (chuckle) 
It's just nonsense, that He would say, 'yes you always obeyed Me, even in hard times, you did the right thing.  You did right by Me, you did right by other people, you were obedient, but you didn't wave your hands.' 

Can you see what is important in worship?  Forget about the waving hands.  If you got to do it, well then do it.  But you know the big thing is OBEDIENCE and that goes with family relations.....husband and wife, you've got to be obedient to those vows.  If those vows were good and Godly, you've got to be obedient.

But obedience, that is where it is at.  Sometimes we come short, I know.  But there is no doubt in my mind, that's what it's all about, and I know what it's all about.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[mharrell08]

Now.  This will be a question, obviously, for those of a more mature understanding.   And, perhaps, growth for those who wish to grow.   

Obedience.   How can one be "obedient", but also sin?

Or, is this where the "new" creature scripture is important to understand?  Because let's face it, no matter what, no one is perfect and even though maturing, a process, we will sin.   

Or, is this a "carnal" verses a "spiritual" matter mindset of sin, and goes back to the "worship" development.

Or, perhaps I just made clear water muddy?

A.

Excerpt from 'Saved By Grace Through Faith' http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html:

Luke 2:40  And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the GRACE of God was upon Him.

What does that mean?  If grace is what saves us from our sins, if that's the big thing and that is what is taught in the church, you know we're saved from our sins, we're saved from death, we're saved by grace. 
It saves us 'from' something doesn't it?  If you are saved....if someone is drowning in the ocean and you save him, you saved him from drowning in the ocean.  If a fireman saves somebody in a burning house, they saved him from being burned in the house, right.
If we are saved by grace, what is it saving us from?  What did Christ need to be saved from?  Did He need to be pardoned for anything?  Did grace cover His sins or something?  No. 

Well there is another aspect of grace.  You know we have all these words, gracious, graciousness, gratuitous, liberal, benefit, favor, gift, joy, pleasure, thanks, all of these are words.  But even Strong's uses a phrase defining grace that I  think if we don't see this we are missing a lot.  It ties in with the thing that I wrote 5 years ago or whenever, in part 3 Lake of fire.  It's where I say grace is a verb.  Here is the phrase Dr. Strong says for the definition of grace - DIVINE INFLUENCE UPON THE HEART.  Wow, what about that! Grace is divine influence from God upon our hearts. 

Well now, did Israel have divine influence from God upon there hearts?  No.  Listen the most times you will find grace in the Old Testament talking about anything or anybody, it's Moses.  It's always Moses saying, 'oh Lord I hope I find grace in Your eyes.'  He just means favor. He says, don't be mad at me, let me do right - let me find mercy - let me find favor - let me find safety - don't get angry God, let me find grace in your eyes, it's in there about 8 times.  Never once in the Old Testament is anybody ever talked about being spiritually saved or received salvation by grace.  It's just not there.  I mean even King David, if God had divine influence on his heart, the way it's suppose to be, why would he go to his death bed squeaking out his last words to his son, Solomon.  Telling him how he wants him to kill all his enemies and make it bloody.  Does that sound like divine influence upon your heart, from God?  It doesn't sound like that to me.  That's what grace is, divine - divinity - God - Godly influence on your heart.  But now we've taken grace out of the realm of a noun, into a verb, it's doing something you see.  Of course I said that a long time ago. 

Jesus didn't need grace for any pardon of anything.  But did He need the influence of God, divine influence on His heart?  Absolutely.  That's why He could live the way He did, accomplish what He did, never give in to wrong motives and temptations and all that.  He had this divine influence of God on His heart ALL THE TIME. 

So then we read Paul says, "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace  (divine influence upon the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I...." (1 Cor 15:10) 

"Yet not I"  what?  He said I labored, you know what that means, work.  I've 'worked' harder than all of them, yet it wasn't I that works, right.  Notice it wasn't I that was doing the work, but the grace of God which was with me.  The grace of God, what?  These things are all understood, notice it, I am what I am by His divine influence upon my heart, which He bestowed upon me and it was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all labored: yet not I labored, but the grace of God labored.  That's what it's saying, can you see that?  So what is the grace of God doing in Paul's heart?  It LABORS, it works.

It's not some 'thing' like, 'well I have the grace of God, that save me.'  They take that word and just tack it on the wall, 'grace' there it is, I got it, God said I got to have it and there it is 'grace.'  It can't be in a book, it can't be on the wall, it's got to be IN YOUR HEART.  What does it do there?  IT LABORS - IT WORKS. 

Now let me read that again.

1 Cor 15: 10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace  (divine influence on the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all (labored):  yet not I (labored), but the grace of God (labored) which was with me (labored)." 

There it is, the grace of God....labors. 
In the Lake of Fire series I showed that grace is a verb.  We learn that when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord, 1 Cor 11: 32.  Chastening defines how God judges us.  Now we are about to learn something very profound here, if we can get it.

Titus 2:11  "For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men,
v. 12  Teaching us...."

What is doing the teaching?  Grace is doing the teaching.  It's laboring - it's teachings - it's the divine influence of God on our heart, it's teaching us.  So it's (verse 12), "TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (eon - age);"

So when it says God judges us by chastening us in 1 Cor. 11: 32, the word chasten there is the Greek word 'paideuō.'  Then when God says He graces us, by 'teaching us' in Titus 2:12, the word teaching is the same word paideuo and it means - to labor, to work, to chasten, to punish, to teach, to educate.  There is like a dozen different words that this means, this 'teaching.'  That's what it does, it actually does something.  And the same way what it does for us, it will eventually do for the world.

Now that verse tells us that teaching us, denies ungodliness and so on.  That one word alone covers everything good and righteous, that we could ever do or think.  I mean if it's godly it's right and good, it's all in that one word.  Notice that this is a godly man, that says it all, I mean if he really is godly, he's God like.  You can't be God like and Satan like at the same time, you know that does not fit.  So this is a remarkable thing that grace teaches - educates - punishes if necessary - schools us - programs us and it teaches us to live godly- soberly - justly and righteously.  The grace of God teaches us to do all those things and God says His judgments chastens us.  It's the same list of things, it's the same chastening - gracing, they are the same thing.

Now we learn that we get the heart and unbelief here, 2 things.  Oh that there were such a heart in them (Deu 5:29), and then in Hebrews 3: 12 it says, I hope that it's not found in you such an 'evil' heart of unbelief.  Those 2 go hand in hand. 

There is one other aspect to this thing of grace.  We saw it a little bit in Hebrews 3:12 that says, "... an evil heart of unbelief..."  Now you all understand that in the Bible when it talks about believe, that's the verb.  Faith is the noun.  Faith and believe are the same Greek word, they're the same.  What is faith?  It means to believe.  If you believe, you have what?  Faith.  They are both the same word, one is a noun, one is a verb, that's the only difference. 

Look at Eph 2:8  "For by grace you are saved...."  Here is the problem, the church doesn't know what that is and they don't teach it and they don't have it.  They think it is a word that if you say, 'I love the sound of that word, yes I like that word, I want to appropriate that word,  God says we are saved by grace, I like that, I want that word.'  'Okay I'm saved by grace, God says I'm saved by grace, and that's God's word, I'm going to put it on a t-shirt....saved by grace, there it is I've quoted scripture.'
They don't know what it means though.  They think it's a noun, to them it's like a gift.  Like here's a gift, 'oh for me.'  Yes.  'Well what did I do to deserve this?'  Nothing it's free.  'Oh a gift for me how nice.'  That's how they look at grace, as a gift and underserved gift.  That's all it is to them, a gift. 

That's true, it is a gift, but sometimes a gift involves doing something.
Let me give you an example.  Suppose my wife buys me a gift for my birthday.  It's a gift, it's not something you have to do or work for.  It's a gift, it's free no strings attached, it's a free gift.  So what is this free gift?  It's a Nordic Track or a exercise bike or whatever.  Well thank you for the gift, does it mean I have to use it (chuckle).  I'd just stick it in the corner and it'll be there for 5 years.  When people come over and say, 'what's that.'  I'd say, it's a gift.  They would say, 'have you ever used it?'  I'd say, oh no, I don't use it, I just look at it.  It's a wonderful gift, my wife is so sweet, she bought me that gift.  But no, I don't use it. 

Well guess what?  Grace is a gift, but it's got to be USED.  Listen when something influences something, that means it does something.  If you are inspired about something, you either think or write or do something, that's the proof of the inspiration.  So if something influences you it makes you think, say, do, work or something, are there is no influence.  We just read that faith is divine influence upon the heart and that grace teaches us, the same that judging chastens us.  It's the same Greek word.  It's interesting it says in Eph. 2:8, "for we are saved by grace...."  Well that's great, that's wonderful (period).  No, no period, comma, "....THROUGH FAITH."   Well shucks, we're saved by grace....through faith, okay.  Well what does that mean?  'Through' is a channel. 

It's like if you want to go from France to England and you can't swim very well and you don't have an airplane, you can take the train.  So this train is the grace, but how is the train going to get to England from France?  The tunnel.  They have a tunnel and that's the channel.  So you've got the vehicle and you have the channel to get there.  Without the channel to get there, well you can't take a train across the water.  But they've got tracks in the tunnel and that's the channel 'through' it. 

That's the way grace and faith is.  Grace is this influence, but faith is the channel and a channel always does something, it channels something - shows motion - shows a destination.  So there's a destination to being divinely influence by God on your heart.  That's the grace and that's free, it's a gift.  But it doesn't mean there is nothing to be done.  It's like my wife's exercise bike, it's a gift, it's free, but it's meant to be used, you see.

So faith is the channel and faith is believing.  So you just have to believe, that's something in your mind, that's simple enough.  I accept your free gift to save me and I believe it, that's it, good, all done.  No, not quite.  Because we read, " The sum of Your word is truth..." (Psalms 119: 160(CLV).  You have to put it all together.



Hello A,

Through the grace of God is how one becomes obedient and learns to have 'the mind of Christ'[Phil 2:5]. It's a process that lasts your lifetime. It may seem like muddy water now when you look at the present but like John in Revelation, when you look back [I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,...Rev.1:10], you see and begin to understand how God is molding you (like a potter molds and shapes clay [Jer 18:1-6])into your future inheritance [And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29]


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Dave in Tenn]

It helped me, Marques.  THAT'S what we need to 'tack on the wall'.  I can't think of a more important word to 'define' than the very thing that God says will save us.  Thanks.

[Richard D]

Thank you Marques, that response really brought home something's for me. If you keep this up I'll be throwing away my bo bo  and looking for a fork and knife to eat the word of God. 

                                                    In His Love. Richard.

[Samson]

Marques,

                Good choice of excerpts from Rays material, it was appreciated; 

                                   Kind regards, Samson.

[Kat]

Hi Amrhrasach,

I spend each day reading the LOF series, sometimes going over and over some of Ray's points ...... I find the LOF series so rich with information that they're truly worthy of more than a once or twice over.

You make an excellent point here, I have to do the same thing.  It seems the only way to get a good understanding of some things is to repeatedly study it.  Everytime I go over it I get just a little bit better understanding.  Sometimes I just don't seem to get it even after many readings and then the light goes on and finally I 'get' it.  Truth is not always easy to come by, that's why we must dig.  I think the best treasures are deep below the surface.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Vangie]

Thanks Marques and Amrhrasach!

I just printed out the Saved By Grace Thru Faith transcript-wow some real gems in this one too.  I can't wait to dig deeper into it.  Thanks so much Kat for all your hard work in transcribing the bible studies.  They are definite treasures along with Ray's main page articles--I'm with you there A--definitely a meaty main dish kind of link!  Thanks again Marques--I have to print these out now and then because I'll have so many windows on my computer open at once my brain can't absorb and appreciate the spiritual depths until I can really hunker down and study all this wonderful truth!

Thanks again to all!
Love in Christ,
Vangie