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Futility of Witnessing to Babylon
Kent:
--- Quote from: Beloved on October 05, 2008, 09:45:04 AM ---The problem as I see it is semantics
Witness is such a loaded term....it was coined in Babylon and it carries the Babylonians theory of Free will. That we by telling them the Gospel that we will be ale to convince them of its validity because we stand as a witness for it. (reminds me of ...Ye who has no sin cast the first stone)and that they can choose to believe it.
We are however called to rebuke. That is presenting God's Word when what is being said is in error . But Gods Word stands on its own. We are just messangers and not analysts or commentators. If there eyes and ears are receptive conversation is possible, if they are not open then only debate can occur.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Most of what we do is with believers As a messanger , we are told to expect tribulation just like Jesus did when he confronted the religious and righteous. They cannot bear the truth. Ray really irritates them because they cannot deal with the Truth. Many of us only have small audiences that we have to contend with and we are often afraid to deal with the rejection. As we become stronger in the Word and Christ works in us, we will need to be bolder.
Perhaps there is some knowledge when we are told Michael said to satan The Lord rebuke you...when we are confronting false doctrines we have to remind ourselves not to take on a role of superiority but humbleness.
beloved
--- End quote ---
Well said, all of it! All I can say is "Amen"!
.
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Kent on October 05, 2008, 09:03:12 AM ---
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on October 04, 2008, 10:54:17 AM ---There are some interesting verses in Ezekiel that perhaps pertain to the futility we often experience when attempting to share the truths we have come to see with those who are still in the clutches of Babylon.
--- End quote ---
I don't see it that way.
Does Ray witness to those still in Babylon? Would anyone consider his efforts to be futile?
I have heard his audios, and I really recommend them. They help a lot! The ones on freewill are especially good.
In them, he is quite harsh to those still in churchianity.
Maybe "harsh" is not the right word. Let's say he gets right in their faces and does not back down. In my opinion, that is something to keep in mind.
He goes toe to toe with them, and in the process he helps us learn. There is nothing futile about it. When we go toe to toe with others, it helps other people learn, by the foolishness of our "preaching". It also helps us to learn.
The "futility" part is in changing the other persons mind. But we aren't called to do that, are we? That is not our job. He said His Word does not return void. I have faith that this is true, even if I dont see the results myself, in this life.
Peace
;)
--- End quote ---
Hi Kent,
Are you saying then that all of us have been called to teach at this time? I believe that if we of ourselves set upon teaching we may actually be participating in not only (spiritual) harm to others but to ourselves as well.
There is godly discernment that must accompany any desire to teach. Once we begin to act spiritual of our own accord we are in fact succumbing to the carnal flesh.
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
Certainly Ray's teachings reach all over the spectrum of anyone who has any sort of interest in scriptures by virtue of Bible Truths being on the internet but I also know that Ray does not go door to door preaching or attempting to teach those who have little to no interest in searching for the truths contained in the scriptures. He does not become a tinkling cymbal (1Cor 13:1) to those who do not want to hear.
Perhaps you believe that the verses I quoted pertain only to the Jews of Ezekiel's day, we can agree to disagree on that point, I have come to believe that the historical OT is also prophetic and since we have another scriptural witness (indeed there are more) from Paul that is right in line with (what I believe to be) what Ezekiel is speaking to on more than one level, for more than one short period of time.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Not all are called to teach, some of us may be being groomed for things other than teaching but are every bit as much of God's plan.
1 Corinthians 12
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Peace,
Joe
Dave in Tenn:
To add on...and that more excellent way is Love, expounded in the next chapter. Love trumps them all. Act in genuine Love, and we can't go wrong.
Being carnal, if that is ever very easy I'm a scuttlefish. But that's how they'll know us.
Sirach:
By Joe:
Certainly Ray's teachings reach all over the spectrum of anyone who has any sort of interest in scriptures by virtue of Bible Truths being on the internet but I also know that Ray does not go door to door preaching or attempting to teach those who have little to no interest in searching for the truths contained in the scriptures. He does not become a tinkling cymbal (1Cor 13:1) to those who do not want to hear.
Bottomline...many do not even want to hear. Many do not even want to listen.
ScarletWren...do not get discouraged..walk the way of Gods truth..i feel the same as you...altho the system does not wellcome you (and me) anymore, God brought peace to my soul..maybe someday God will use you as a vessel to be of blessing to someone else...and maybe not...i will keep on praying that it will.
Robin
Kent:
--- Quote ---Are you saying then that all of us have been called to teach at this time? I believe that if we of ourselves set upon teaching we may actually be participating in not only (spiritual) harm to others but to ourselves as well.
--- End quote ---
No. I said no such thing. But lets get the terms straight. There is the office of teacher, and there is just plain teaching that everyone does. Ray has the office of teacher IMO. I have no such office.
Is it only up to the "teacher" office holder to expose those that contradict, or can anyone do that?
Let me put it this way. Suppose you are close to someone, and that someone told you that their pastor was demanding the standard 10% of gross income as a tithe. Would you remain silent if you weren't "asked" ? If that pastor then told that person that he/she would be guilty of "stealing from God" and "cursed with a curse" and would burn in hell forever if they didn't tithe, would you still remain silent? You might, I don't know what you'd do, but I sure wouldn't. Now if he/she didn't respond, it's out of the "teachers" hands.
But we can witness to others what we know. I have difficulty understanding this thing about not teaching. Does it require a teacher to teach something basic that they already know? Does one need a teachers certificate or a college degree to teach basic math? Really, this is basic stuff.
--- Quote ---He does not become a tinkling cymbal (1Cor 13:1) to those who do not want to hear.
--- End quote ---
Since a good many people writing him dont want to hear, and are quite antagonistic, why respond to them? I know, you aren't Ray, but that makes no sense to me.
I dont claim to be a teacher. Maybe I will be, maybe not. Probably not. All I do is what I know.
I listened to his audio, I believe it was his "foundational truths" talk, where he wanted to give others the ability to expose these false doctrines to others instead of just pointing others to his site and letting it go at that, just by knowing 7 scriptures. Does one have to have the office of teacher to do that? It sure sounded to me like Ray was saying no such thing. He explicitely stated in that audio that he wanted others to have this ability. But he also warned that if it is done with a carnal mind, one would fall flat on ones face.
Now if others see things differently, I won't argue.
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