How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?

[Richard D]

Thanks Marques.

Your right about Christendom teaching us these misunderstandings, I have both Gods truths in me as well as many misunderstandings taught me by the church.

[Kat]

Hi Richard,

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way,
       But the LORD directs his steps.

Understanding that God is all powerful and all knowing, indeed He is sovereign and is in controll of all things, is difficult.  God has a plan to bring all of His created children into His image.

Heb 2:10  For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

But notice "for whom are all things and by whom are all things," God is ultimately in control of everything, because all things exist by Him.  So God is actually the source of all things and that includes us and everything about us, even the number of hairs we have (Mat 10:30).  Now add that God knows "the end from the beginning" (Isa. 46:10), so how can we do something that He does not know we will do. 

Act 17:28  for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, "For we are also His offspring.'

He brings about all the circumstances, but lets us choose, so that we can have this experience of life and learning good and evil.  We actually think, say things and do what 'we' want to, because God gave us that ability as part of this experience in life.  Now He also is making us accountable, because it was our own thoughts, words and actions, not of free will, but still our desire/will to think, say and do, so that we might learn through cause and effect.  The ultimate cause and effect, if you sin you die. 

So He has this great plan that He is carrying out and we a vital part of His plan.  We are at a point in His plan where very few have been given knowledge of it.  I hope that maybe something I said will help your understanding.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Richard D]

Kat.


Thank you for your explanation Kat and also everyone else's too. After reading Ray's free will series I kept thinking that what ever I do is because God is causing me to do it whether right or wrong.

I understand now that God sends causes or triggers to the beast in us that brings temptations that the beast in us is attracted to and then we decide whether we will follow the desire of the beast or our desire for God.

God does not tempt us but we are like this by nature and do not take much for one to sin because we are sinning machines.

So if I choose to do wrong I' am accountable for my decision because I have power of choice but God is responsible because he subjected the creature to vanity and in doing so God also paid the death penalty giving God the right to resurrect everyone from the grave otherwise we would stay dead in our sins.

I finally understand rightly now and would like to thank everyone who has posted in this thread. 


                                                      In God's love. Richard.

[Robin]

We don't have the power of free choice Richard. Our choices still have a cause.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm

FREE WILL

You mentioned "free will" in your sermon. People would rather have their arms and legs cut off and be thrown into a pit of snakes than to give up their "free will." Well guess what? They don't have to give it up. They never had such a thing in the first place! Even God Almighty is governed by the law of His own nature.

"The One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11).

But the buck stops at God's throne. He has not given us the same powers He possesses; that's for sure. But man, puny man, thinks he has "human free will" that is never caused or made to think or do anything. Man thinks himself sovereign in this assumed free will.

The Scriptures know nothing of "human free will." This is just another case of human ignorance. Men do not possess free will, because free will does not exist. The reason that "free will" (the ability to make uncaused choices) does not exist is because it is a physiological impossibility!

The first edict of the universe is "cause & effect."

Nothing in heaven or earth can happen without a cause. For every effect there is a cause. There are no exceptions. No effect or happening of any kind in the universe, on earth, in our bodies, or in our minds can come into existence without a cause.  And if something is caused, it cannot be free. That would be a total contradiction of words and logic. Humans do have wills. But wills are not free from causality.

" ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

This involves countless unperceived forces.

Don't confuse "will" with "choice." Someone might say: "If our choices, are caused, then how can one call it a 'choice'-isn't that a contradiction?" Not at all. Free will demands that when someone makes a "free will" choice, no thing or no one made or forced him to do so. It was completely up to him-one way or the other. People simple confuse the meaning and definition of words. The word "choice" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the choice could have been avoided. A choice is merely what we prefer. Nowhere does the word "choice" carry with it the notion of "avoidability."

When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. Nevertheless, something still caused that choice, whether one sees or feels its presence or not. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter-the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. There are no exceptions. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. Man's will is not independent from his Creator (Phil. 2:13).

[Richard D]

M.G.


I know that every choice I make has a cause behind it but the cause itself doe not make me do the wrong thing or the right thing but it forces me to make a decision but I choose to do the right thing or the wrong thing  but the cause is forcing me to make a choice.

So I understand now that my choice is not free in itself or without a cause but I have the freedom to choose rightly or wrongly regardless of the cause that is causing me to choose  This is why I'm held accountable but not responsible.

So God could send me causes to help a fellow human being but it's my choice whether I give help or not. God does not force me to give help but God forces me to make a decision as to whether I will help or not.


So we do not have choice outside of something giving causes or our choosing is not free of causes but our decision is not force upon us only the cause is force upon us.

So people can only make choices according to the information they have rather making choices without cause or effect of causes. So the cause is what motivates me to make a choice to do or not to do.


                              In God's love. Richard.

[Kat]

Hi Richard,

Well I think what your saying now sounds like 'limited free will.'  Ray has a answer for that too.  This is kind of long, but I think it has a really good explanation along these lines.

http://bible-truths.com/part4.htm ---------------

Even theologians admit that their free will theory is limited. So they have invented "limited free will." They use analogies like a cow on a tether or a fly in a jar or a lion in a cage. Their freedom is limited to the confines of their restraints, but within those confines they are nonetheless, free. Is this true? Is there such a thing as "limited" free will?

Man does not have "limited" free will. Otherwise God would have "limited" sovereignty. Man has no free will and God has total sovereignty. Theologians try to make high what is low and try to bring low what is high. These teachings do not glorify God.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7500.0 -----

[Ray Replies]

First I need to clarify our use of words again. The word "free" as it is used in "free will" can ONLY mean that a person can think thoughts, make choices, and perform activities completely on his own with nothing CAUSING him to think, choose, or perform.  That's as clear as I can state it. If something, ANYTHING, causes (or let's get stronger--MAKES) a person think a thought or make a choice or perform an action, then he did not do it FREELY. Don't get me wrong; he may have done it voluntarily, but not FREELY.

Our minds have the power and capability to "choose". A choice is merely "what we prefer." Our brains CAN analyze data, weight pros and cons, and MAKE choices. He can, however, do NONE OF THESE FREELY--that is "without a CAUSE." Let me use a softer expression and maybe it will become clearer.  Do you now agree that we are "influenced" to think things, say things, and do things?  OF COURSE WE ARE! Now then, if something influences you to actually DO something, then that influence WAS THE CAUSE. And whatever caused you to do something MADE you do it. And once something is MADE to do something, it is impossible to ever have been avoided!

I realize that this goes a little beyond psychology and theology 101, but it is not impossible to apprehend. It does take consider time meditating on these things before one becomes COMPLETELY convinced in his own heart and mind that the statements that "ALL is of God" and "God Who operates ALL according to the counsel of own will", are always true under all and every circumstance. Now to your comments:

You suggest that surely God gives us SOME will and SOME choices. Matthew, He gives us THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of choices according to our own wills. It's just that NONE of them are exercised WITHOUT INFLUENCE (or a cause that makes us do as we do). Try some experimenting if you will. Sit still and try to come up with a thought, choice or action that has zero influence.You might think that something even just "pooped into your mind" and that NOTHING caused it. Sure it did. Something did. There are no effects in the physical or mental universe that have no causes.

You use the word "forcing" our foot steps. God never uses that word. But He does use words such as "directs" or "guides". It doesn't take a great deal of energy for God to make people follow the footsteps that He has established for us. The SLIGHTEST motivations in our finances, stomach, social life, egos, etc., will easily cause us to go either this way or that way.

Of course none of this is of any value unless we can establish it in God's Word. Notice what God says regarding our "steps":

"...It is NOT IN MAN...to direct his steps..." (Jer. 10:23).

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS" (Prov. 16:9).

God could have just as easily said: "...the Lord directs HIS WAY" It's all the same to God.

"Man's goings [Heb: steps] ARE OF THE LORD: how can a man then understand HIS OWN WAY? [it matters not if our steps are good or sinful]" (Prov. 20:24).

"For now thou NUMBEREST my steps [THAT'S pretty specific, Matthew]: dost thou NOT watch over my SIN?" (Job 14:16).

"The steps ['steps' is used to symbolize ALL OF MANS DOINGS] OF A MAN ARE ordered [Heb: established] by the Lord" (Psa. 37:23). If ALL man's steps are "established", then of necessity they are ordered by God IN ADVANCE of him taking those ordered steps!

You question God "FORCING people to do evil." God doesn't have to FORCE people to do evil, we do it NATURALLY. It is our NATURE to do evil and commit sins. As I have said: "We are SINNING MACHINES"! God does not FORCE a man to rob a bank. He robs the bank because he is either in a financial bind or is lazy or is lusting for the easy life. Either way, he VOLUNTEERS to rob the bank. Now. . .what INFLUENCES him to rob the bank. Well, we just listed a few reasons. But what specifically at each step of the process causes him to carry out his deed? Thousands of things. Did he bring about the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of things that influenced (CAUSED) him to follow this path? NO! ABSOLUTE NOT. Where then DID all of it come from? Ultimately we must conclude that it came from GOD! GOD is the Creator. Why even the rotation of earth on its axis CAUSES men to sin!Yes it does. Many people wait until sunset to going about an evening of SINNING--loving the DARKNESS because their deeds are evil.

It's a nice thought that men would come to Jesus and come to God and opening love and adore them. But it's a fantasy. Do we have Scriptural proof of this? HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF VERSES:

"For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh [the carnal mind] is ENMITY to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for NEITHER IS IT ABLE" (Rom. 8:6-8).

"Not ONE is just--not even one. Not one is understanding. Not ONE is seeking out God. All AVOID Him... Not one is doing kindness: THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE!" (Rom. 3:11-12).

No, God doesn't need to 'FORCE' people to do evil, neither CAN THEY do good! In fact, Jesus plainly said that:

"NO ONE CAN come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing [Greek: DRAGGING] him" (John 6:44).

Oh yes, we DO have a will, but our will does not NATURALLY do the will of God.

You say that "warnings and guidance" are useless if we have no will." But we DO have a will. It's just not "free" from causes, that's all. Matthew, surely if our wills were "FREE," someone, at sometime in the history of billions and billions of humans would have chosen ON HIS OWN, by his FREE WILL to DO GOOD. Don't you think? But what saith the Scriptures? No such thing!

You state: "If God determines our footsteps. . .we have no will." Yes we do. And God even CAUSES our wills to come in line with His. Don't you ever pray: "Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven"?  "Not MY will, but THEY will be done"? If our wills are FREE FROM BEING FORCED OR CAUSED OR MADE to do anything, we couldn't even pray these words. That WHY we work out our own salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING. Because we, of ourselves, CAN DO NOTHING, as Jesus plainly told us. It is a fearful thing to realize that we can do NOTHING on our own. We only THINK that we can. And if that is what we think then we are fools!

"So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect, FOR IT IS GOD Who is OPERATING IN YOU TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:12-13).

Even the very "words" that Paul is here speaking to the Philippians are inspired OF GOD to CAUSE these people (and us) to RESPOND to his admonition. Words are powerful. Words CAUSE THINGS TO HAPPEN.  That's why God uses words:

"The WORD of God is LIVING and OPERATIVE, and KEEN above any two-edged sword, and PENETRATING up to the parting of soul and spirit... and is a JUDGE of the sentiments and THOUGHTS OF THE HEART" (Heb. 4:12).

No, God is not playing chess with himself. God IS REPRODUCING HIMSELF! God's purpose for creation is far more than a game of chess. On God's chess board EVERYONE is a king and NO ONE gets "check-mated"! We are ALL WINNERS. We will ALL be the SONS OF GOD IN THE FAMILY OF GOD and Paul tells us that after death is abolished God will be ALL IN ALL (I Cor. 15:28).

How can God hold our face in the fire and at the same time hold US guilty for getting burned, you ask? Well, of course, He doesn't hold our face in the fire, but I know what you mean. I will let God answer your question to the point and very succinctly. The ancient king of Assyria was just as proud of his "free will" as most of humanity is today. Notice how God handled him:

"Woe, Assyria!  Club of My anger! And a rod!  He, in their hand, IS MY MENACE!  Among a nation polluted will I SEND HIM.  And against a people, object of MY RAGE, will I INSTRUCT HIM. To loot loot and to plunder plunder, And to place them for tramping, as the clay of the streets.  YET HE, NOT SO is HE planning. And HIS heart, NOT SO is devising. For to exterminate is in HIS HEART, And to cut off nations not a few" (Isa. 10:5-7).

Are you getting the picture? Continuing:

"I will visit evil on the fruit of the INSOLENT HEART OF THE KING OF ASSYRIA, And the high beauty of his eyes. [Why? Why would God do such a thing? Here's why] For, SAYS HE, 'By the vigor of MY HAND I DID IT, And by MY WISDOM, for understanding have I" (Vers. 12-13).

Next notice what God has to say concerning this king of Assyria's sell-appointed proud "free will" heart:

"Will the ax [the Assyrian king] beautify itself over the one [God] hewing with it?   Should the chief's mace magnify itself over the one [God] waving it? As if a club is also waving the one raising it! As if the rod is raising one who is not wood!" (Isa. 10:15).

Yes, Matthew, God clearly shows us how He "operating all according to the counsel of His own will"! God said that He used the Assyrian king to judge other sinful nations just as surely as if the King were an ax in God's own hand! But the beauty of the whole thing is; the king of Assyria didn't think so. He never dreamed that he was but an ax in the HAND OF GOD his Creator! Amazing! The king took credit for all his exploits and great wisdom of warfare. In reality it was ALL OF GOD. And so one day this king was be embarrassed to tears for his great swelling egotistical boasting. God will chastise him and punish him NOT because he could have done otherwise by some supposed free will, but because (1) in this kings heart he THOUGHT he was accomplishing all these things, and (2) because he ACTUALLY DID DO THESE EVIL THINGS. God us JUSTIFIED. Oh yes He is! This king will be a GREAT SON OF GOD one day and he will THANK GOD for using Him to glorify God's name, fame, and greatness.

And, yes, Job did have a choice. He had and made MANY choices during his ordeal. But God sustained Job's integrity and trust in his God. It was ALL of God. Job knew it. And Job PRAISED GOD FOR IT and God blessed Job DOUBLE! I'll be the first to admit that our thoughts are not God's thoughts, but I am beginning to understand them. Praise God that that!

And so, if all is of God (the good and bad), why does He hold us accountable for our sins and deeds? This time I will let Paul answer:

"For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you [Pharaoh] My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth. Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be PROTESTING to me, then, 'Why, then is He [God] STILL BLAMING [us for our sins]? for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?'" Paul answers this way: "O man! WHO ARE YOU, TO BE SURE, WHO ARE ANSWERING AGAIN TO GOD? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER, 'Why do you make me thus [a sinner unable and unwilling by my own fabled 'free will' to ever do what is right]?' Or has not the potter [God] the right over the clay [us mortals] out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:17-21).

I hope it is all beginning to make more sense to you, Matthew. Ask God for a spirit of wisdom and He will surely give to you.

Sincerely,

Ray

[Richard D]

Kat.


Which one of these scenarios is correct?


A) God sends causes to me to rob a bank, but I also have a choice, so I can choose to rob the bank and move on or I can choose not to rob the bank and move on.


B) God sends causes for me to rob a bank, so my will is subjected to His will and I must rob the bank because I cannot go against God's purpose.


Now, I don't have freedom of my will because my will is always subjected to Gods will and so God sends causes directly to my will or uses outside forces and motivates me to make a decisions.

Now any decision I make was made only because of causes sent to me by God.  (A) Now I decided to say yes, but God wanted me to say no.  (B) Or I decided to say no and God wanted me to say no.

Which one of these is correct (A) or (B) 


Thank you Kat for your help. Your friend and brother in our Lord. Richard.

[Kat]

Hi Richard,

I don't think you can say what about this or what about that.  These 'causes' are brought about in a intricate and complex matter that is interwoven with everybody you come in contact with.  Think about how everybody in this world is thinking, doing and saying what is according to a certain path that God has predestined for each of us and coordinates together with everybody else and will be in line with His plan.  This is far beyond what we are capable of comprehending.  But maybe just knowing He is sovereign we can except that. 

Here is an email, Ray explains this better than I.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4680.0.html ------

Not having free will or free choice does not mean that you do not HAVE a will or choices. Of course we have a will and of course we make millions of our own choices, but the fact of the matter is, neither is FREE to think or do anything that is not first CAUSED BY SOMETHING.  We "sin" because the pulls and trials, and tests, and temptations of our environment CAUSE our hearts to desire and commit sin, because our "deceitful hearts" (Jer. 17:17) ARE NOT FREE FROM CAUSALITY TO RESIST SIN.  The ONLY way to resist sin is by the power of God's Holy Spirit, and if it takes the power of God's Holy Spirit to resist sin, then obviously we do not have a free will which can decide to do in on its own.  It is a humbling experience to realize that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth is actually, and factually, and literally, more powerful than we are.
-------------------------------------------------------

All I can say is it takes time for all of this to sink in.  Just reading Ray's series on 'The Myth of Free Will Exposed' over and over is the best way to put it together in your head, each time more pieces will come together for you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[KristaD]

All I can say is it takes time for all of this to sink in.  Just reading Ray's series on 'The Myth of Free Will Exposed' over and over is the best way to put it together in your head, each time more pieces will come together for you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Out of everything we have all said here this is by far the best advice/answer for you. It probably took me over a year once I finally accepted that we don't have free will to actually understand what that means. Just rest, the answers will come and they will come easily when it is time, everything will just click. Just trust Him and rest assured that you cannot mess anything up by not getting it all right now .

[Richard D]

To Kat and all who have posted on this thread I thank you all very much. Although I don't fully understand how this plays out in my life one thing I do know and that it's not in man to direct his footsteps.

That's a far cry from my earlier belief of Christendom when I thought my thoughts were independent of God's purpose or will.

Kat, your advice is well received and I will study Ray's free will series as many times as needed.

I thank you all for your patients and kindness towards my lack of understanding which does testifies to the love of God in which we all move in.


                                                 In God's love. Richard.