Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Marlene]

Hello, I was reading in John Chapter 20  verse 22.  I have read the whole chapter but still I am not sure what its meaning is there.I read in the NIV.

verse 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
vese 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; If you do not forgive them they are not forgiven. "

I must be thinking carnal cause, I thought we were just to forgive all people.
So he would for give us.I thought maybe someone would understand what I don't see.

In His Love
Marlene

[winner08]

unfortunately I got to you first. . I will try to give you the first one: I know The Holy spirit is referred to as breath or like wind I think. So I would imagine that when God breath on them at that moment they received the Holy Spirit. As for the second,  I will give you my opinion,  and please take it as JUST my opinion. I like you believe that as we forgive we will be forgiven by God. I don't know if that's true or not. But it says If you forgive anyone of their sin they are forgiven. Do we have that kind of power? I don't. Maby God was speaking about the disciples. I am sure in a few min. you will receive alot better information by people who know what they are talking about.

Sorry if I couldn't help,

Darren

[OBrenda]

Good question Marlene,

Can't wait to hear the answers..
  Brenda

[hillsbororiver]

I see it as a prophecy of the next age, when His chosen are empowered from above to do His work together with Christ.

Oba 1:21  And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

1Co 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Peace,

Joe
 

[Dave in Tenn]

Maybe helpful from Young's literal translation.

Joh 20:21  Jesus, therefore, said to them again, `Peace to you; according as the Father hath sent me, I also send you;'
Joh 20:22  and this having said, he breathed on them , and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit;
Joh 20:23  if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain (the sins), they (the sins) have been retained.'  (parentheses mine)

"According as the Father sent Christ".  Christ was sent to forgive/remit sins.  It is the 'sins' which they were instructed to forgive in this passage, I believe.  If so, it's a match with the many other commandments to forgive.

That's as far as I can go, Marlene.     

[hillsbororiver]

vese 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; If you do not forgive them they are not forgiven. "

The reason I believe this is prophetic and relating to the perfected elect is because of verse 23. Everywhere else we are admonished to forgive others of their sins against us personally, if we don't we will not be forgiven, but here in John it is different, those with Christ in the next age will be Sons and Daughters of God with the power to forgive men their sins absolutely not only the sins committed toward themselves. The key here is "If you do not forgive them they are not forgiven."

See the difference?

Peace,

Joe

[Marlene]

Thanks to all of you for your replies. Its funny how before I believed like Ray teaches that I obviously did not read the scriptures like Ray has taught. I am trying to read the Bible now and mediate and take my time. I love John so much cause you can see lots of Ray's teachings there. I like Joe's take on it cause he has three witness. I also, like Dave's. It certainly was a hard thing for me to see. I am loving learning God's way and not the ways of the world now. I am just so blessed to have like minded people who I believe understand or will try and learn with each other. I value all of you and will read any other opinions.
In His Love
Marlene

[Marlene]

Joe, Oh yes, I understand that now. That position would have to be the Elect. Cause we are not qualified to do that here. We do that if we are chosen. I just knew this had to have an answer. I value all of you. Its so awesome to have a family like this. I am so happy now. I am trying to learn how to adopt that 2 or more witness thing to help me. No, way am I there yet. I haven't been at this very long. All I can say when I got that Hell burned out of my mind, I have peace in my life like I never had.
Thanks and God Bless You
Marlene

[jenniferonline]

The key word from this verse is RECEIVE.  It is not translated properly in the christian bible.  THe greek word is labete (TAKE) and its verb form is imperative (A COMMAND). 

This is the only time in the translated english bible where the greek word labete is translated in an indicative form (WISHFUL not commanding) concerning the disciples "receiving" the HOLY Spirit prior to Acts 2.
They were commanded and "breathed" in the HOLY SPIRIT because there is no FREE WILL in this verse as the KING JAMES or other translations would have us believe.   

Very similar to if I throw you a football and in mid air (while it is hurling at you) I tell you to TAKE the ball.

Therefore, in the next verse "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven (BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS IN YOU); If you do not forgive them they are not forgiven (A contrast but the same reiteration of..BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS IN YOU).

Jen

[Marlene]

Jen, Thanks for your comment. That makes sense ,also. If we have the Holy Spirit we can do it.
In His Love
Marlene

[indianabob]

Hello, I was reading in John Chapter 20  verse 22.  I have read the whole chapter but still I am not sure what its meaning is there.I read in the NIV.

verse 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
vese 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; If you do not forgive them they are not forgiven. "

I must be thinking carnal cause, I thought we were just to forgive all people.
So he would for give us.I thought maybe someone would understand what I don't see.

In His Love

Marlene

Friend Marlene,

I think this verse explains what Jesus' disciples were being sent to do in the very early church.
Those sent had been given Christ's spirit of discernment and spiritual understanding.
They were sent to people who were unlearned and novices in the teachings of Jesus.  These novices had not had the benefit of direct teaching from Christ therefore the task of the Apostles was to counsel and advise them.  If and when these babes in Christ repented and made a public confession, they would naturally desire to know what more if anything they had to do.  At this point the apostles could tell them "your sins have been forgiven, go and sin no more".   In this manner the novices would be able to accept that they had a fresh start and that God was working with them daily through the indwelling power of the holy spirit to continually cleanse them.

Or the apostles could examine them further and determine that their repentance was feigned and not valid and advise them to study further, pray and meditate upon God's word until their sorrow was genuine.

It seems that this would be a good approach for many of us to consider in our own relationships.

What do we tell our children about Jesus' character and forgiving heart?  Don't we reassure them at every opportunity that we are sure that God has seen their heartfelt sorrow has forgiven their sins?

Just my view.  Indiana bob

[Marlene]

Indiana Bob, That is a real nice view. I would more then likely say that could be what he is saying. Thanks for your input.

In His Love
Marlene

[hillsbororiver]

If the apostles were given the power to obsolve sins as flesh and blood men where are the scriptural witnesses that of any of them (including Paul) were telling anyone they have forgiven their sins, as in;

"I forgive you your sins."

This must be prophetic if we have no scriptures witnessing to the apostles forgiving sins at that time, if there are scriptures testifying to them doing this I am unaware of them.

I see it as a prophecy of the next age, when His chosen are empowered from above to do His work together with Christ.

Oba 1:21  And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

1Co 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Peace,

Joe
 

Have any of the above prophecies been fulfilled yet?

Consider this from The Lake Of Fire Part 12; http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT

"For the earnest expectation of the creation waits FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).

Notice this verse in a few other translations:

"For the EAGER outlook of creation ARDENTLY awaits the revealing of the Sons of God" (The Emphasized New Testament).

"For the LONGING of the creation LOOKS EAGERLY for the time when [the glory of] the sons of God shall be revealed" (The Epistles of Paul by Conybeare).

"All creation is YEARNING, LONGING to see the manifestation of the sons of God" (The New Testament in Modern Speech).

Or the creation waits with EAGER LONGING for the revealing of the sons of God" (The Revised Standard Version).

"THE WHOLE WORLD IS ON TIPTOE to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own" (Phillips’ Translation).

To be sure, it is GOD Who is telling us that the whole creation is groaning in earnest expectation. It is groaning for it knows not what, but GOD KNOWS! In other words, God is telling US, who are growing in spiritual truths, what it is that the whole world and indeed the whole creation is in desperate need of—the saving power of the Sons of God. We ARE the BODY OF CHRIST! What Christ does, he DOES THROUGH US!

WHY? Why are they waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God? Of what value will these Sons be to them? We can see why the Sons themselves would want to be manifested as such with God their Father and Elder Brother Jesus Christ, but why would all the wicked humanity of the entire "CREATION" be "waiting in EARNEST expectation?" What in the world is taking place here?

The church teaches that after all the Sons and Daughters of God are in their glory, the rest of the world will be tortured eternally by real fire in a terrorist hellhole of hopeless doom (never mind the fact that God says "there will be NO MORE DOOM") (Rev. 22:3, Concordant Literal New Testament).

Seriously, when all the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested IN THEIR GLORY, why would the ENTIRE CREATION be awaiting this event with almost uncontrollable bated breath, excitement, and anticipation? WHY? What is it that the churches have never told you? What is God going to do with all these glorified Sons and Daughters?

You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:

"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:

First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.

But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?

The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?

Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.

"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.

God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!

And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:

God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!" Let’s read it:

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Maybe helpful from Young's literal translation.

Joh 20:21  Jesus, therefore, said to them again, `Peace to you; according as the Father hath sent me, I also send you;'
Joh 20:22  and this having said, he breathed on them , and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit;
Joh 20:23  if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain (the sins), they (the sins) have been retained.'  (parentheses mine)

"According as the Father sent Christ".  Christ was sent to forgive/remit sins.  It is the 'sins' which they were instructed to forgive in this passage, I believe.  If so, it's a match with the many other commandments to forgive.

That's as far as I can go, Marlene.     

Dave posted::::
Joh 20:23  if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain (the sins), they (the sins) have been retained.'  (parentheses mine)

Here are the witnesses:::

Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18:18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Rodger

Hi Rodger,

Actually I am not sure what your point is, perhaps you can elaborate, but if you look at the two verses you posted as witnesses let's take a look at them;

Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

"I will give you" is future tense isn't it?

Matthew 18:18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Are we to believe that this was present tense, that Jesus was giving them this power at that moment even though the apostles at this point were still unconverted, are we to believe that these same men who could not stay awake with Jesus during His last hours and fled when He was arrested even denying Him were full of the Holy Spirit and full of It's power?

The churches teach these things as literal and present tense verses but we know the power of His Spirit will not be manifested in His Sons and Daughters until "the change" at the resurrection.

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.
 
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.

Peace,

Joe

[Richard D]

Joe.

Is this talking about those who do not learn righteousness in the next age?  And it will take the age afterwards for them to learn?

I know all will be eventually saved so there must be forgiveness at some point.


                                           In His Love. Richard.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Richard,

Yes, that is correct.

Read the portion of LOF 12 that I posted earlier, much of what we read about the power of His Spirit working through His people is prophetic, pertaining to the next age not the present age.

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

John 20:23  If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Could Jesus have been speaking of healing in that verse, as I was wondering about this Scripture.

Mark 2:9  Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, "Arise, take up your bed and walk'?
v. 10  But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the paralytic,
v. 11  "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

So Jesus is saying here that healing is forgiving sin?  Jesus did command them to "heal the sick."

Luke 10:8  Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
v. 9  And heal the sick there, and say to them, "The kingdom of God has come near to you.'

We know that the Apostles did heal many people during their ministry.

Acts 5:15  so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.
v. 16  Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Acts 28:8  And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him.
v. 9  So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Just wondering if there is a connection here.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Joe,

John 20:23  If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

So Jesus is saying here that healing is forgiving sin?  Jesus did command them to "heal the sick."

Luke 10:8  Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
v. 9  And heal the sick there, and say to them, "The kingdom of God has come near to you.'

We know that the Apostles did heal many people during their ministry.

Acts 5:15  so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.
v. 16  Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Acts 28:8  And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him.
v. 9  So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Just wondering if there is a connection here.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

I understand what you are saying but isn't healing a physical body primarily a physical work (of course accomplished by supernatural power from above), a sign and wonder for unbelievers, to focus attention to/for the new ministries of their day, while forgiving/obsolving sin a spiritual manifestation? Were those physically healed by Jesus or the disciples necessarily spiritually healed/perfected? Also the witholding of forgiveness to me points prophetically to the LOF as some will need a longer purging than others (few stripes, many stripes).

Isn't physical (temporal/mortal) healing a dim shadow of spiritual (immortal) healing?

The biggest clue to this being prophetic rather than literally true in their (and our) day is the holding back of forgiveness even though Jesus instructed Peter to forgive his brother 7x70 times.

His elect will have power and authority the apostles (in the flesh) could only dream of although the things they did were a type/shadow of what they (and the elect) will do after "the change."

Joh 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

Isn't physical (temporal/mortal) healing a dim shadow of spiritual (immortal) healing?

That is what I'm thinking.  As it does seem that physical healing was a big part of the Apostles ministry, perhaps it was showing them and us in a physical sense what will actually be done in a spiritual sense in the LOF. Sort of like practice for them.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

What I hoped to point out was clarification on what they 'they' was in the verse...the sins, and not the 'sinners'.  Forgiveness of sins, to me, is a essentially a practical matter, no matter if the setting is one-on-one human or the Cross or even the LOF.  

1Jn 1:9  if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

Jas 5:16  Be confessing to one another the trespasses, and be praying for one another, that ye may be healed; very strong is a working supplication of a righteous man;

This cleansing and healing ultimately is God's work.  Forgiveness, Repentance, Cleansing.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but help me nail down a scriptural principal.  Is what is prophecied for the Elect never, even in the spiritual, applicable for us now?

Joh 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father

Isn't "asking in my name" equivelant to praying "They will be done?"