Confused About A Verse In The Bible

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Joe,

Isn't physical (temporal/mortal) healing a dim shadow of spiritual (immortal) healing?

That is what I'm thinking.  As it does seem that physical healing was a big part of the Apostles ministry, perhaps it was showing them and us in a physical sense what will actually be done in a spiritual sense in the LOF. Sort of like practice for them.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Amen!

Hi Kat,

You nailed it Sister. 

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

What I hoped to point out was clarification on what they 'they' was in the verse...the sins, and not the 'sinners'.  Forgiveness of sins, to me, is a essentially a practical matter, no matter if the setting is one-on-one human or the Cross or even the LOF.  

1Jn 1:9  if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

Jas 5:16  Be confessing to one another the trespasses, and be praying for one another, that ye may be healed; very strong is a working supplication of a righteous man;

This cleansing and healing ultimately is God's work.  Forgiveness, Repentance, Cleansing.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but help me nail down a scriptural principal.  Is what is prophecied for the Elect never, even in the spiritual, applicable for us now?

Joh 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father

Isn't "asking in my name" equivelant to praying "They will be done?"

Hi Dave,

Of course we are to strive for these things as we journey here in our corruptable flesh, we do have an "earnest" of His Spirit now but the full payment, the full manifestation of this "down payment" comes in the next age, we have the promise now, we wait patiently (as the world groans, even ourselves) for the fulfilment. The portion of LOF Part 12 that was posted earlier in the thread really explains this much better than I can.

2Co 5:5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest728 of the Spirit.

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest728 of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.

Peace,

Joe   

[Heidi]

As a babe in the Lord and definitely not a meateater yet the way I see it is that it would just not sit right to be able to say to someone your sins are forgiven, not yet anyway.  I can pray to God and ask Him to forgive them their sins....like Moses did.  I do not consider that we have the power now on earth to be able to do so. 

I like your explanation Joe and that it is prophetic, vanity needs to first get out of the way and that can only happen in the new age once we become incorruptible.

It would be to weird to say to someone, "your sins are forgiven", besides is that not what the Catholic priest do anyways.....we know that only God can forgive.

[ericsteven]

Here is perhaps an alternate way of understanding the passage.  Take it as you will.

As far as John 20:22, the disciples could not have received the Holy Spirit at this point, otherwise there would be a contradiction by Jesus Himself when He says the following:

John 16:7        Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Acts 1:4-5      Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," {He said,} "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 1:8     ...but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.

That sounds like to me that the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon them. 

Acts 2 continues by saying:

Acts 2:4     ...and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, according as the Spirit was giving them to declare.

John never records that they were filled with the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them.  It is only in Acts that it is recorded that all twelve disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit.  Remember, Thomas wasn't even with the rest of the disciples when Jesus 'breathed on them' in John 20.

As Jen pointed out, the word translated "receive" in many translations is a variant of the root Greek word lambanō, which can also mean "to take."  One site that I read stated the following in regards to the tense of the word in this verse:

This is a strong request or command directly to more than one subject and the command was completed but the action in the command has not necessarily taken place at the time the command was given.

For example, if I say to somebody "when you go to see your mother take some flowers", it does not mean that they have taken the flowers to their mother at the time I said "take the flowers".  Obviously, I mean at some time in the future, "take some flowers".

In this regard, this verse is similar to what is referred to as the Great Commission in Matt. 28.  They didn't yet have the Holy Spirit, but once it came upon them in power, they were at that point, commanded take the Holy Spirit and go into all the world.  Which, in my opinion fits well with what Jesus had already told the apostles in regards to the Holy Spirit:  that it was definitely coming, but not until He had gone away.

As far as verse 23 goes, we all believe that Jesus had authority because it was given to Him by our Father.  But Jesus also gave that same authority to His chosen.

Matthew 10:40     He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.

Luke 10:19ff     'Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.'

John 13:20     Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives any one whom I send receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me.

2 Cor 13:3, 10     ...since you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful in you. ... I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.

But did that authority involve the forgiveness of sins?  Perhaps it did, but only if done in a certain way:  in His name.

Luke 24:44-49     Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.'

Acts 10:42-43     And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead.  To him all the prophets bear witness that every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.

Acts 2:38      And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'

Acts 26:15-18     And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from the people and from the Gentiles -- to whom I send you to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified BY faith in me.'

Just another way of looking at it.

God bless,

Eric

[indianabob]

Well said Eric and helpful,

The apostles knew that only God can forgive sins through the application of the blood of Jesus and yet Jesus sent them. 

If anyone who realized that their sin and their sin alone had made the sacrifice of Jesus necessary came to understand the enormity of their sin and being sorrowful did repent in anguish and determine in their own mind and heart to change and follow the leading of God's spirit in their mind, all the above being caused by God, then it would seem to follow that God would fulfill His promise to forgive.

Why should any of them or any of us today, have to wait till the end of our lives for forgiveness?  Don't we pray daily for a fresh start so that we can begin the new day with ethusiam and joy? 

Even when we realize that we must return to the one we have hurt and make peace with them and then come back to the altar of God to beg His mercy on our own behalf, we do so with the confidence that God will honor our petition and cover our sin with the blood of christ.

So then, could not the apostles have advised the sinners that they met daily of the same grace and mercy that was immediately available to the repentant sinner?  Why would God with hold mercy and leave the repentant sinner in doubt?

Bob

[aqrinc]

From Ray i understand that it is Forgiveness then Repentance then Cleansing in that order.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.msg27923.html#msg27923

Excerpt from Repentance- Nashville 2005 Conference.

Repent means to turn around, to go the other way.  Whatever you are doing that's wrong and
sinful and evil and carnal and worldly and everything else, you turn around, you "repent" and
you go the other direction.  The scriptures mention a couple of words:

Matthew 18:3 talks about being converted
Matthew 19:28 talks about being regenerated
1Peter 1:3 talks about being born again
John 3:3 talks about being born again

What are all those things?  They're all one and the same, there's no difference.  Being begotten
anew, being born again, being regenerated, being converted...they are all the same.  And this is
what we all want to do, so that we can take on more knowledge and live more Godly, and reach
this goal.  We all sin.  Sin has to go through three things:  cleansing, repentance, forgiveness. 
Does anybody know the order of these things?

This is the order of what happens to sin:

1.   Forgiveness
2.   Repentance
3.   Cleansing

(God does not cleanse anybody of sins they haven't repented of.)

Forgiveness comes first and isn't that interesting.  Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of
the world and why was he slain?  Why did Christ die?  The scriptures say Christ died for our sins. 
That's the simplest statement.  But there is a little bit more.  I want you to notice this:

George.

[Marlene]

Thank you all for your interest in the topic. I know now that we all confess now and we can also ask for forgiveness for those who hurt us or need forgiveness. I do believe that is  for now and in future.  You all have shared much and I appreciate it .

In His Love
Marlene

[hillsbororiver]

Well said Eric and helpful,

The apostles knew that only God can forgive sins through the application of the blood of Jesus and yet Jesus sent them. 

If anyone who realized that their sin and their sin alone had made the sacrifice of Jesus necessary came to understand the enormity of their sin and being sorrowful did repent in anguish and determine in their own mind and heart to change and follow the leading of God's spirit in their mind, all the above being caused by God, then it would seem to follow that God would fulfill His promise to forgive.

Why should any of them or any of us today, have to wait till the end of our lives for forgiveness?  Don't we pray daily for a fresh start so that we can begin the new day with ethusiam and joy? 

Even when we realize that we must return to the one we have hurt and make peace with them and then come back to the altar of God to beg His mercy on our own behalf, we do so with the confidence that God will honor our petition and cover our sin with the blood of christ.

So then, could not the apostles have advised the sinners that they met daily of the same grace and mercy that was immediately available to the repentant sinner?  Why would God with hold mercy and leave the repentant sinner in doubt?

Bob

Hi Bob and everyone who has contributed so eloquently to this thread,

I must reiterate some points made earlier as it appears only Marlene, Heidi, Rodger & Kat understand where I am coming from in regard to what Jesus spoke to His disciples in John Chapter 20;

Joh 20:22  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Joh 20:23  Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

On the surface this would appear to contradict Jesus as He spoke in Matthew Chapter 6;

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So, what's up with that? Which is true? Do we forgive or not, do we ourselves right now have the authority to absolve or retain our brothers sins? Did the apostles? Where is it recorded that any of the apostles or Paul forgave anyone without invoking the name of Christ?

Of course we do not have to wait until the end of our lives to forgive our brothers sins against us, in fact we are commanded to forgive but can I forgive the sins a brother commits against someone or anyone else? As Heidi mentioned before the Catholic priests take this authority by quoting these verses in John, do they really have this power? We know the answer......

As Ray has said many times pay attention to the words; Christ says;

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So how do we resolve this apparent contradiction between forgiving/retaining sins? It is clear in Matthew that we are to forgive our brothers period, it is just as clear that Jesus is telling His disciples that they will be given the power to forgive (He does not say in His name) and the power to retain sin. How can these both be true?

Because one (Matthew) is speaking of our earthly, flesh and blood journey and the other (John) is speaking of a time after the change when the full inheritence is given, when the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested to the world!

There is nothing new (covenant wise) about praying to God to forgive sins, I wish I had a nickel for every time Moses or another OT Prophet prayed for God to forgive Israel, but we never read about (in the OT or NT) any prophet or apostle absolving or doing any forgiving in their own name. Christ is speaking of something totally different in John, as Ray would say read all the words, pay attention to all the words.

There is so much treasure hidden in the four Gospels, are they all just reiterating the same exact words? If you take a close look you will see some subtle (and not so subtle) differences that when looked at closely can really open your eyes to spiritual truths. I have been studying the Gospels intensely the past 8 or 9 months and believe me they are much deeper (in speaking to His Elect) than what I ever thought previously.

This sure is an interesting journey!

Peace,

Joe 

[Marlene]

Hello Joe,  I say amen to that. It sure has been a journey and the ride has not ended. I agree with you that he has alot to say to the elect. When, we come into the truth, I belive that race is to find as much truth as the Lord leads us to. I belive it is a race to the finish. I always, just pray keep me in the race Lord. But, now I dont doubt him. I know who is in charge now. Yes, I believe I have entered the race. It is definitely a journey.

In His Love
Marlene

[jeetkunejimi]

Hi Marlene,
               the way I see it Jesus was talking to the Holy Spirit of God, not the disciples.

And saying this, He exhales and is saying to them, "Get Holy Spirit! If you should be forgiving anyone's sins, they have been forgiven them. If anyone's you should be holding, they are held."
                                                                            (CLNT).

If you read on a little we see that Thomas wasn't present when this in-filing took place, so when he turns up he's sceptical about Christ's veracity. As we know all sins are forgiven eventually but those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit of God they will have their sins held for this aion and the aion to follow, but of course after that they will be forgiven.

Hope this may be of some help as you seek unction from the Holy Spirit of God:)