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[legoman]

Some more interesting interpretations of predestination verses I have encountered.

Isaiah 46
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
       from ancient times, what is still to come.
       I say: My purpose will stand,
       and I will do all that I please.
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
       from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
       What I have said, that will I bring about;
       what I have planned, that will I do.
12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted,
       you who are far from righteousness.
13 I am bringing my righteousness near,
       it is not far away;
       and my salvation will not be delayed.
       I will grant salvation to Zion,
       my splendor to Israel.

Comment from free will believer:
"Verse 10 only means God has foreknowledge, not that he predestined everything, because that would mean God has predestined murder, etc.  Verse 11 must be looked at in context of Verse 13.  ie. God brings to pass his plans for Israel, not everything. "


Ephesians 1:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Comment from free will believer:
"Clearly God cannot work all things.  The all things in verse 11 must be looked at in context of verse 10.  It is only all things in Christ that are worked according to God's plan.


Romans 9:  all the verses about God is the potter, God makes vessels for honor & dishonor, etc

Comment from free will believer:
"Clearly Romans 9 is only talking about Israel.  This doesn't mean he predestines us to be honorable or dishonorable.  And it could only be talking about Israel as a nation, not as individuals."


Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Comment from free will believer:
"God predestines based on whom he foreknew.  This doesn't mean foreknowledge = predestination otherwise it would read 'for those God predestined he also predestined'.  Again, God can see who will believe him and then predestines those to be saved."
etc.

Sigh.

My comment:  backwards logic stretched to the limit puts the cart before the horse and the egg before the chicken! 

Kevin

[Dave in Tenn]

True that.

Another good way to avoid it is just to never preach on it at all.  There's plenty of Bible without all those pesky passages.

[lilitalienboi16]

Most of all this is right out of ray's articles.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed [carnal-minded from our birth, as the nation of Israel was] to do evil" (Jer. 13:23).

"The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, IS FROM THE LORD" (Prov. 16:1). [Regardless of the proper translation of the first half of this verse, the second half is emphatically] "…FROM THE LORD."

"O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not ‘free’ to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).

"Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY[Not of our own 'free' will], but by reason of Him [thats God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until now."(Rom. 8:20-22)!

"God is operating ALL in all"(I Cor. 12:6)

"...being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His OWN WILL"(Eph. 1:11).

Psalm 135:6 "Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places."

Isaiah 55:11 "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire[like saving all men in '1 Tim 2:4' and everywhere else] and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Isaiah 46:8-10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am GOD, and there is none else; I am GOD, and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel SHALL STAND, and WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE[as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else]:

Proverbs 19:21 "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand."

Isaiah 46:9-11"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executes my counsel from a far country: yea, I have SPOKEN IT[as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else] I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS[as also in saving all mankind]; I have PURPOSED IT [as also in saving all mankind] I WILL ALSO DO IT"

Numbers 23:19 "God is NOT a man, that He should LIE [do we think God LIES when He says that He WILL save all mankind in I Tim. 2:4?]; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not DO IT? Or has He spoken[as in I Tim. 2:4 and many other places],and shall He not MAKE IT GOOD?"

And to quote ray;

Well? Those of you who contend with your Maker: "Hath God SAID" in I Tim. 2:4 that "He WILL have all men to be saved?" Well then, "SHALL HE NOT DO IT?"(Num. 23:19). Has "He [God] SPOKEN" in I Tim. 2:4 and many other places, that He "WILL have all men to be saved?" Well then, " ..shall He NOT MAKE IT GOOD?"(Num. 23:19).

So much for free will 

God bless,

Alex

[Marlene]

Kevin, I had been reading the scriptures you are talking of last night. Yes, I can see how the ones who do not have truth could twist them scriptures around. I got brave and showed my mother in law the verses that says God wills all men to be saved, especially the believer. She said"That means if they believe in Him."
To me that is as plain on the nose on my face. When, I was a child before I got into organzied church I use to believe he Is the Savior of the World. Organized church and men who think they are only capable of understanding the Bible. When, in fact a little Child can understand. I wish I had not lost my first love, but now I see it was a blessing. I know now I have truth without a doubt in me . Best time of my entire life. No fear.
In His Love
Marlene