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Author Topic: Physical Bodies at ressurrection  (Read 22603 times)

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fe32k

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Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« on: October 19, 2008, 04:58:40 AM »

Hi all,
s'been a while. Anyway I have a quick Question. I know Ray believes that the wicked will be raised with Physical Bodies, but after reading his article regarding this I noticed that the argument he mostly presented was that evil men like Hitler cannot be raised with a glorious, immortal, incorruptible spiritual body. Thats all fine and dandy, but then I thought about something and haven't been able to reconcile it.

What about Satan?

Does he currently have a an incorruptible spiritual body? I know we can agree it is spiritual, but is it immortal and glorious? Is satan wicked? I think we can agree on that too. I tried to think about this and make sense of it, but I keep coming to the same conclusion.

If Satan is a wicked Spiritual Being, then why can't wicked humans be raised as spiritual beings?

Any help with this is appreciated.

Fe
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2008, 05:45:35 AM »

GOD:  "And the Lord God said unto the serpent ['the great dragon was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil and Satan' Rev. 12:9], Because you have done this, YOU ARE CURSED...." (Gen. 3:14). Sounds like God is in full control of Satan.

GOD:  "And the Lord said unto Satan, behold, He is in your hand, BUT SAVE HIS LIFE"  (Job 2:6). Satan can do no more than God permits him to do.

JESUS:  "Then said Jesus unto him, GET THEE HENCE SATAN...then Devil LEAVES HIM" (Matt. 4:10-11).  Jesus had completely and total control over Satan.

BELIEVERS:  "Submit yourselves therefore to God, Resist the Devil, AND HE WILL FLEE [Gk: 'run away, vanish']FROM YOU" (James 4:7).

"And the Devil that deceived them WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone..." (Rev. 20:16).

God be with you,

Ray


Excerpt from http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4681.0.html
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Martinez

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2008, 06:02:50 AM »


As far as I was aware, all were raised with the same spiritual body, only the wicked still had their carnal minds which will have to be removed in the lake of fire!

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

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mharrell08

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2008, 08:58:12 AM »


As far as I was aware, all were raised with the same spiritual body, only the wicked still had their carnal minds which will have to be removed in the lake of fire!

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.




'Flesh and blood' shall not inherit the kingdom is not a statement just regarding physical flesh and physical blood. The wicked/non-believers as well as the 'called' shall be raised with corruptible bodies since they have yet to be spiritually converted.

Excerpt from Ray's paper regarding physical and spiritual resurrection (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html):

So the whole House of Israel dies in a condition of being “perished” with no “hope,” and are “cut off.”  But what does God tell Ezekiel He will do for them?

I am prophesying, and lo, a rushing, and draw near do the bones, bone unto its bone."

Eze 37:8  “And I beheld, and lo, on them [are] sinews [tendons, strength, muscular power], and flesh [muscles, fat, etc.]  has come up, and cover them does skin [the outer covering of a physical body] over above--and spirit there is none in them."

I know of no “spiritual” tendons, muscles, fat or skin, that are put on physical “bones” to remake a “spiritual” man.  This is a PHYSICAL resurrection of the dead, Eze 37:10 “And I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet--a very very great force” (Ezek. 37:10).
 
Notice that it takes the spirit from God to give these dried bones life once more. They then “stand on their feet.” This is the exact and precise definition of the word “resurrection.” It means to “stand up” upon one’s feet, but the word itself has nothing to do with being “spiritual” or “immortal” whatsoever.  Jesus raised a little girl and Lazarus from the dead, and they stood up on their feet and lived—they were not made spiritual bodies or given immortality. Likewise those saints resurrected at Christ’s resurrection, were not given spiritual bodies or immortality.

Nowhere are the wicked promised immortality or incorruption, nowhere.  The most thorough study on the resurrection of the saints is found in I Corinthians. Let’s notice a few things that most overlook:

Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world?  The salvation of the wicked?  The resurrection of the wicked?  NO.  Let’s read it:

“Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, ‘brethren’] I declare unto YOU the gospel…” (I Cor. 15:1).

“…by which also YOU are saved…” (Verse 2).

“For I delivered unto YOU….” (Verse 3).  Etc.


What is the “order” of the resurrection of which Paul speaks?  “But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at His coming” (Verse 23).

The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of “they that are CHRIST’S,” not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment.  Pay attention TO THE WORDS!

1Co 15:50  “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”



Hope this helps,

Marques

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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2008, 09:14:35 AM »

I touched on this subject yesterday with Ray and he pointed out that a physical body adds to their humiliation.
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Richard D

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2008, 10:02:12 AM »

I’m always learning something new. So if most of humanity is going to be raised with a physical body will these receive a spiritual body after they come through the lake of fire or are they forever with a physical body?  :-\

                                                 In His Love. Richard.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2008, 11:09:24 AM »

They will be equal with the chosen after their lake of fire.
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Akira329

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2008, 12:56:07 PM »

Hey Dennis,
Can I safely assume that they will be resurrected with the same body they died with?
I know if I came back and still was fat I would be most humiliated;)

Seriously, such things do humble people right?

Antaiwan
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Kat

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2008, 01:10:58 PM »


The way I am seeing this is all of humanity has been given physical life, none will be 'born' into the kingdom and receive spiritually bodies until they have a 'spiritual' ressurection.  

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born (Strong 1080, gennaō - regenerate) again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
v.6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
v. 7  Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again.'
v. 8  The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

We see in this statement that Christ made that we must be "born of the Spirit."  Born means regenerated, that is the "change" that Paul talks about (1 Cor 15:52).  But first all human being must be begotten and begin the proces to learn righteousness and be brought into His image, for the few now and the rest in the Lake of Fire.

1Peter 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
v. 5  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are begotten now in this life, but we must judge ourslves and begin to "live to righteousness" and "die to sin"/self.

1Peter 2:24  and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

When Christ returns there will be the resurrection of the dead, but there is two categories "just and the unjust (Strong 49,adikos - unjust; by extension wicked; by implication treacherous; specifically heathen: - unjust, unrighteous)."  

Act 24:15  I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

The Elect are going through this process of dying to self now, the rest will have to go through this same process while still physical in the Lake of fire.  The world will be ruled by Christ and the Elect and the monumentous task of saving all of humanity will get underway.

That is how I understand it anyway.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2008, 01:23:52 PM »


This relates too:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8510.0.html

Everything about us should be humbling Antaiwan. No idea what bodies the called will have.
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fe32k

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2008, 08:34:21 PM »

These are all fine responses but none really answers my question. My thought was that Spiritual beings can be wicked and used Satan (aka the Devil) as an example. I am not for nor am I against a physical resurrection, but I need to know why is it that we should be 100% certain that the wicked are resurrected in a physical body and it seems that Ray is. To say that they are raised this way because it is more humiliating sounds like human reasoning and not scriptural in my opinion, but I could be wrong and will admit it if a scripture is shown.

Now here is my question again, rephrased to be a bit more comprehensible:

Ray says that the wicked are raised in physical bodies because the wicked cannot have a spiritual body. But then why is Satan a spiritual being with a spiritual body, but yet is wicked? Is it a prerequisite for a spiritual being to be glorious and incorruptible? Or can a spiritual being be corruptible? (i.e. Satan)

And Arcturus, I do know the things which you quoted about Satan, but to lie is to sin, and he is a lier from the beginning. So therefore he must be wicked, despite the fact that he's doing God's will.

thanks all,
Fe
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mharrell08

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2008, 08:58:10 PM »

Fe,

What part of the excerpt I posted with scriptures did you still not understand?
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2008, 09:42:29 PM »


Ray says that the wicked are raised in physical bodies because the wicked cannot have a spiritual body. But then why is Satan a spiritual being with a spiritual body, but yet is wicked? Is it a prerequisite for a spiritual being to be glorious and incorruptible? Or can a spiritual being be corruptible? (i.e. Satan)

thanks all,
Fe

I think I understand what you are saying, but why can they not both be true? Satan is wicked, but he is not human.

Saddam Hussein was very wicked but he is not a spirit.

From the article:

1Co 15:50  “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God “inheriting the Kingdom of God.  Is the act of raising the wicked from the dead and act of their “inheriting the Kingdom of God?” I think not.  Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection?  Well many say “YES, yes they will.”  NO, no they WON’T!  Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?”   Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”
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fe32k

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2008, 10:26:12 PM »

Hey Dennis,
Thanks again. But your reasoning assumes that a spirit being is incorruptible. So is satan incorruptible? I totally agree with you that they may both be true, but one must accept the possibility that there are different possibilities. I do not think that this will make or break me, but I think  it is important for us to analyze the facts if we are going to make a decision towards one side. So why can't a wicked man be raised with a corruptible spiritual body. It is possible if we believe that Satan is a corruptible spiritual being, right? Your thoughts?...

Fe
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dewey

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2008, 10:33:33 PM »

Fe,

What part of the excerpt I posted with scriptures did you still not understand?
[/
quote]   hi my brother, if you are telling me and the other people that read this forum that you understand the spiritual meaning of these scriptures that you quote ,then you are so far out of my league of the understanding of God's word that maybe I should move on to a forum where the people are not so privileged to understand the meanings of the scriptures.  I say this because you seem to know the meaning of what Jeasus has spoken in parables. Why ,I spoke in parables so that they would not all believe at the same time ,therefore not be saved in their order .It is very easy to be abusive, especially when you think you know it all.

love y'ans in the Spirit of Jesus

Dewey
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Kat

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2008, 11:02:00 PM »


The way it looks to me is that the spirit being, were created from the beginning as spirit/messenger beings, so when their time of judgment comes they will be judged as such.

2Peter 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Jude 1:6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day." (CLV)

These spirit/messengers are a separate creation from the human creation and it is humanity that God is putting through the process of making into His image.

Heb 1:13 Now to which of the messengers has He declared at any time, "Sit at My right, till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet"? (CLV)
v.14 Are they not all ministering spirits commissioned for service because of those who are about to be enjoying the allotment of salvation?

Where is there a scrpture that states that people in the resurrection from the dead will be spirit beings, apart from 1 Cor. 15 where Paul is speaking to the believers?  I can not find any.  But there are Scripture that indicate they will be flesh and blood.

Eze 37:4  Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, "O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
v. 5  Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
v. 6  I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.""'

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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pylady

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2008, 11:16:35 PM »

Hi Fe,

One thing we do know for sure - Jesus while on earth set the pattern for all mankind.  He was begotten by His Fathers spirit while a man on earth, and then raised with a glorious spirit body.  Every person on earth must follow that pattern.  The elect in this age are begotten by God's spirit and will be raised with glorious spirit bodies next (following Jesus).  The rest of mankind will be begotten of God's spirit in the next age while in the flesh (following the pattern), and then will be raised with a glorious spiritual body.

Satan is not of mankind, but he certainly has not inherited God's kingdom.  But it seems if he too is to be saved in God's time He will deal with him in the best way.  But it will be different from the way he deals with mankind since Satan is not flesh but spirit already.

1Cor 15: 42,43 "So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;"

Of course, this scripture is speaking of the elect now, but all mankind follow.  From perishable body (flesh), to imperishable body (spirit).

Just my thoughts,

        Cindy
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fe32k

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2008, 12:10:44 AM »

Hi Dewey,
I understood every part of that excerpt. But unfortunately it is one of Ray's teachings I do not quite see eye to eye yet. Either God has not opened my eyes to it or God hasn't opened Ray's eyes to it (very possible). But this is not a forum for arguing Ray's teachings so I will respect that rule and refrain from doing so. I will say however that the excerpt you posted does not answer my question. I don't know or assume anything. I just sincerely want a scriptural answer. Ray says in your excerpt that he knows of no spirit with tendons muscles and what not, but I do know one thing; Ezekiel 37:8 is a vision and why is Ray taking that vision literally is beyond me (literally beyond me, because I do not understand). If anything I learned from Ray is to not take visions literally.

Thanks!
Fe
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mharrell08

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2008, 01:06:43 AM »

Hi Dewey,
I understood every part of that excerpt. But unfortunately it is one of Ray's teachings I do not quite see eye to eye yet. Either God has not opened my eyes to it or God hasn't opened Ray's eyes to it (very possible). But this is not a forum for arguing Ray's teachings so I will respect that rule and refrain from doing so. I will say however that the excerpt you posted does not answer my question. I don't know or assume anything. I just sincerely want a scriptural answer. Ray says in your excerpt that he knows of no spirit with tendons muscles and what not, but I do know one thing; Ezekiel 37:8 is a vision and why is Ray taking that vision literally is beyond me (literally beyond me, because I do not understand). If anything I learned from Ray is to not take visions literally.

Thanks!
Fe

Hello Fe,

That is an excellent point regarding not taking a vision literally. But what about the rest of Ezekial 4?

5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7  So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9  Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,


This is a prophecy that has to come to pass. No, the Lord is not going to literally raise 'these bones' from the vision but He will eventually raise bones into physical bodies.

Also, have you ever read a scripture that you believe states that the wicked/unbelievers/called would be raised into a spiritual, immortal body? It's one thing to not agree with the scriptures given, but is there another scripture you believe states otherwise. I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck; I am just wondering how this thinking of all with spiritual bodies came about. I hope we, the other members, can help you find the answer you seek.

Thanks,

Marques
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cjwood

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2008, 03:23:10 AM »

hi fe,
as arcturus pointed out from an excerpt from one of ray's teachings, "God is in full control of satan".

we cannot reason with our human brains how God will transform satan after he has been cast into the lake of fire.
satan was created by God for His purposes. you cannot try to reason about evil humans upon resurrection by comparing them to an evil spirit satan. it's not apples to apples. it's apples to oranges.

i pray that God will show you His Truths in your spirit pertaining to the lake of fire. all who have studied diligently the teachings of God regarding the truth about the lake of fire, which are and have always been testified of in His scriptures, and expounded to us by the spirit of Jesus Christ through our brother ray smith KNOW by that same spirit of Jesus Christ, that God indeed has opened ray's (spiritual) eyes of understanding on this matter. no ifs ands or buts.

claudia
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