"Whatever O Man is..."

[Amrhrasach]

"Repentance".

"One scripture says God frames evil, you know what it is when you put a frame around something,  you know frame it.  He frames evil, so it won't go totally out of control.  What appears to be out of control today in the world, is actually framed.  God knows how far it's going.  Nothing is out of control.

God makes vessels of honor and dishonor.  He makes vessels of dishonor and then has mercy on the other vessels.  Some He hardens and some He has mercy on.  He has had mercy on everybody in this room.  If you have never killed anybody or molested children or done any of these horrendous things.  He has great mercy on your life.  Now we need to be thankful for that and not assume we don't have very much to repent of.  We have to repent of what? 

O man, that's what we have to repent of.

Whatever O man is.  That's what we are, because O man is Adam.  O man came out of Adam.  Where did you come from, some place else?  We're all out of Adam.  And what does Adam do?  Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters and on and on.  Wow, this is O man out of Adam.  This is what he does. 

And only by the grace of God, some of us didn't have to go that route."

From "Repentance, 2005".

*>*>*>

Finely split hairs, God's way.

There is SO MUCH to learn.     

And I thank God.

And thank you Ray.

A.

[winner08]

I must say your post got to me. What do I have to repent for? What do I have to be thankful for. I think the two go hand and hand. I repent for my human nature that against Gods nature and am thankful for not going the route that you spoke of. The evil, murder, child molestation, and those such things. Ray says we all could have went that route but by the grace of God we didn't.

[Marlene]

Hi, Look at the Route Paul went. He did some of the things you mentioned, like murder, anger and such. God showed his Glory by giving Paul mercy. There are all kinds of sin and evil. I think this shows us God is in control and not man. We all have something to overcome. When, we overcome it is certainly to show Glory to God. We to not have anything to boast about. Can you even imagine the Love Paul had for Christ cause of all his terrible sins that the world looks as worse then other sins. Yes, I believe god controls evil in each of us. He has made some for honor and some for dishonor. It all is certainly to glorify him.
I bet people are trying to figure out even today how Paul got there. We know it was because God choose to show his glory this way. I look at myself and judge myself and I feel like the worse sinner in the world. This was a good discussion. Yes, evil is controlled by god or it would be totally evil and dark.
In His Love
Marlene

[Heidi]

Amrhrasach, I will share my testimony with you regarding this bible-study that Ray did. 

I used to be very judgemental prior to coming to BT.  I think self-righteous is a better work actually.  (I am still very embarrassed thinking back now on how I used to be.)  But praise God, when I read the study on repentance, God opened my spiritual eyes and I knew then that I was no better than any murdering, gunslinger, raping drunkard that has ever lived.  I was that "O'man". 

It humbled me to the core and I give my Heavenly Farther all the glory for it.  I no longer judge other people for anything, except....nowa days I judge myself.

[Amrhrasach]

Heidi said:  "I was that "O'man"."

As am I.

I believe that is Ray's point of this study, exactly, and the point Jesus was driving to the heart of the followers.

My thrust of quoting Ray in the post was that we are all the "o man", and the only difference between one or any other is the grace given, as Ray says.  His point is thick and rich with wisdom and not as simple as one may think in just a casual "lord, forgive my sins".

But even more, only Christ can change us internally from the "o man".

Not elementary, in my view.

A.

[Marlene]

Amen to all of this!
Marlene

[aqrinc]

Hi A,

It is noteworthy to look at the most vile person or thing done by that person and Remember:

There but for The Grace Of God go i.

Worthy Is The Lamb That Was Slain From The Foundation Of The Worlds; For The Sins Of The Whole World.

Love, Charity, Understanding and Faith.

George.

[Heidi]

Worthy Is The Lamb That Was Slain From The Foundation Of The Worlds; For The Sins Of The Whole World.

Amen George!!!!  Hallelujah.

[Amrhrasach]

Hi A,

It is noteworthy to look at the most vile person or thing done by that person and Remember:

There but for The Grace Of God go i.

Worthy Is The Lamb That Was Slain From The Foundation Of The Worlds; For The Sins Of The Whole World.

Love, Charity, Understanding and Faith.

George.

Hi back George.   I agree with you.   But, is this repentance process so simple as just knowing and believing "there but for the grace of God go I"?   While it is true we can/should be thankful, or as Ray states, "some of us didn't have to go that route" there's still more it would seem, an imperative spiritual humbling process perhaps, to achieve the higher mark of true "repentance".  As Ray states more expressively, "Now we need to be thankful for that and not assume we don't have very much to repent of. "  .............We're all out of Adam. And what does Adam do?     Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters and on and on."

So, is this repentance a sudden burst of forgiveness and all is done?  Is it a process that goes for some time, one item removed at a time?  We "repent" of our internal make-up, what we are, and those bad things (the bad character traits) magically go away and now we've "repented"?  Because some of those descriptions in the list above are not eliminated in an instant, well, at least not in my case.    I can be thankful that I'm not a murderer but does that mean I'm not required to repent?  I'm taking from Ray's teachings, and I could certainly be wrong, that this "repentance" is more like standing on the sand of the sea looking back, truly recognizing and truly repenting for serving a god which wasn't a god at all.  To me, that would seem foremost in repentance.

We (all mankind) have our place(s) in that list that can go "on and on".   We've all read Ray's teachings, but, have we all truly repented?   I can gain knowledge (read Ray's teachings for a prime example) but knowledge is useless unless placed comfortably and applied correctly and wisely. 

Repentance strikes me as much deeper and profoundly personal.  One man and one true God working things out.

Just thoughts.

A.

[aqrinc]

A,

It is knowing and believing that but for The Grace Of God Through Faith; not of ourselves: i or you or anyone
else can absolutely be in that fallen condition. We are always in a repentant state from now until (Thy Kingdom Come) since we are still sinners Forgiven. The Working out is For God Through our Saviour And Lord Jesus Christ
To Do. Please help by pointing out what is missing or can be added to my understanding so we can all benifit and
grow in God's Grace.

Love brother.

Heidi, Amen Sister.

George.

[Amrhrasach]

Hi George.   Thank you for your added reply and my apology for the late response.  I'm terrible about rolling things around too long.

No, it doesn't appear you're missing anything.  Apparently I am.

Yes I can agree, with some reservation, that by God's grace we are given over to a state of continued repentance.   

In retrospect, however, I suppose what I'm attempting to blend into this view of repentance is really a matter of personality and upbringing, and perhaps that is a failure point that should best be overlooked.  For some that may be an easy accomplishment.  For others, perhaps, it isn't as easy.  That is apparently my case.

While looking at others and calling out their character flaws it's easy to then feel fortunate and say to oneself, "I'm not like them".

But aren't we supposed to remove our own beam of the eye to really understand the specks in the eyes of others?   And is that a simple thing to accomplish?  Not according to what Ray has derived and is teaching.

"Because when it comes to cast out the beam in your on eye, your thinking yea, well whatever this character flaw or sin is, get rid of that.  But it doesn't work that way.  You don't get rid of a beam by just pulling it out and throwing it away, no.  It's going to take a long time to get that beam out, because it's big.  This represents big sins, big character flaws, huge shortcomings.  It's not like you can pull it out of your eye and it's gone.  It's going to take time."

and:

"You know it only appears that you see a beam in your brother eye, but if you could see clearly instead of that speck or mote, you would see that he too has a beam in his own eye.  But you can't judge him with a beam in your eye, you can't even see what his faults are, for crying out loud, you have so many yourself."

So, it's one thing to stand and say "I don't do those things".  If that's true, then God has truly blessed one for not having gone that "route" in life, and then, in it's truest form, "there but for the grace of God go I".

But in reality, however, saint and sinner alike go by the grace of god, no? 

Mark 7:21  For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

If I'm reading Ray's teachings and scripture correctly, I am ALL of those things.  We ALL are.   None of us are any different.

So repentance must be thorough.  It must be deep.  And it is imperative. 

And there's the crux of what I'm attempting to say.

For me, at least, it's more than just asking the Lord to forgive my daily sins.  I want to recognize, I want to see, I want to KNOW the depravity of the beast that I am.   I must SEE the horrendous person I am.  Only then will I understand true repentance and turn and never turn back, and then, with *true north* confidence could/can/will I say and believe, BY THE GRACE OF GOD GO I. 

This is so much more, at least to me, than overcoming a sinning pattern.

I apologize for the wall of words.  I know of no shorter convenience to convey what I'm attempting to discover.

Once again, I'm more than likely blending personality where personality doesn't belong.

But.

Proverbs 20:5  The purposes of a man's heart are deep waters, but a man of understanding draws them out.

Best.
A.

[Dave in Tenn]

"For me, at least, it's more than just asking the Lord to forgive my daily sins.  I want to recognize, I want to see, I want to KNOW the depravity of the beast that I am.   I must SEE the horrendous person I am.  Only then will I understand true repentance and turn and never turn back, and then, with *true north* confidence could/can/will I say and believe, BY THE GRACE OF GOD GO I."
 
It is no stretch at all for me to believe "there but for the Grace (Divine Influence) of God go I".  In thought and in deed, I've done things the world condemns.  I know from experience what I am capable of, and know very well from the same experience that if God had not framed my life by His grace there is no depth to which I could not have sunk.  I also know full well that it is His Grace which is making me stand now.  This is not theoretical to me, and perhaps this little bit of testimony from the 'dark side' will help those who've not personally visited it to imagine a full application of the scripture in their own lives. 

That said, I don't think any of us are going to come to full repentance by looking at others.  We only know how far short we fall by looking at holiness, and that is only in Christ.  We have the Word and we have the Spirit of God in and with us.  It is a relationship and it will proceed as the Master of this relationship dictates.  It is HIS yoke we take and we are to be learning from Him.

I also don't think any of us are going to come to full repentance all at once.  It's incremental by design.  "One third of the trees, one third of the grass, one third of the seas."  He works in us only what we are able to bear, although at times it is 'almost' more than we can bear.  Yet we have to remember that even this repentance is His work, for He is working in us both to will and to do His Good pleasure.

I'm not the best 'quoter' on the forum, but this is what I've learned from the Scripture Ray has taught. 

[aqrinc]

A,

Flesh: Needing something when you were a child; you absolutely depended on your Parent to provide.

Spirit: Needing to conquor the beast within now; you Absolutely Depend On God Through Christ
Jesus To Provide.

Mar_10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

[Marlene]

This has been such a good discussion. I can tell you before I came to the truth. I was dealing with not being able to forgive some one who had hurt me so bad. I tried and tried to forgive. Forgiving, was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. I fail into the same sin this person did. I had to repent of doing the same thing they did. But, God used this for the good. He taught me how to forgive. Now, I just say when someone hurts me Father Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do. I struggled  with an unforgiving spirit for years.Now, for the good part. I repented and I felt so guilty. I thought, God could never forgive me. He used this to make me feel like I deserved Hell. I ended up feeling totally forsaken. I felt that from the sin I did that he made me hate. He gave me victory over that sin. Had I not felt like King David he would never had led me to his truth. He put me in this spot. Praise the Lord one night he gave me truth. He taught me not to judge others, he taught me to forgive and he showed me that he loved me and showed me he forgave me. He gave me a gift of truth. His truth has taught me so much. Taught me how to look at all of us in the same boat. Sometimes, we put people we love on a pedestal when in reality they are just like us. All, of you who say he frames us is right. But, also the ones who are looking at the Beast of themselves are judging themselves. Now, I love all cause we are just alike. We are all in the same boat. If, not for grace we would be dead in our sins. I want the prize and even if he does not choose me I want to do his will and I know its only because he has enabled me to do it. I have tried the other way through the beast myself. All, I can say is he took alot of my sins that I struggled with and brought me to truth. I know that I still have sins and I know he can enable me to let them all go when he chooses. I also, know our sins can really humble us. I know longer want to not forgive although that old man still rears and tries, but with him I have victory over it. That fall was a hard lesson , but taught me well. So, I praise and thank him for that fall. He desearves all the glory and all my love.

In His Love
Marlene

[Amrhrasach]

Dave said:  "I know from experience what I am capable of, and know very well from the same experience that if God had not framed my life by His grace there is no depth to which I could not have sunk."

Precisely.   You've reflected.   The genesis was not of your doing, obviously, but in my view a certain gift has been given and now you recognize God's grace even more so.  He has given you the insight to recognize that which you are quite capable, and also have been, once.  And that's what I'm talking about. 

It's intricate, it's critical, it's painful, it's necessary.

Isn't this what Ray is speaking of?

A.

George said:  "Flesh: Needing something when you were a child; you absolutely depended on your Parent to provide."

My parents weren't around when I was a child.  The "some-things" came by whatever means I could conjure, invent, or steal. 

I depended on myself.

George said: "Spirit: Needing to conquor the beast within now; you Absolutely Depend On God Through Christ Jesus To Provide."

No argument. 

For those who have never known anything but to trust themselves for provisions, this is a mountain.  For others, a mole hill.   See the difficulty to get to the point you are?

George said: "Mar_10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."

Baby steps first?

A.