bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Physical Bodies at ressurrection  (Read 22587 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

indianabob

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2144
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2008, 04:11:06 AM »

Marques and Claudia,

Good responses to Fe and patiently stated.  I'm proud of both of you for unities sake.

As we may agree some things will be learned later when God is ready to share.

My take on it is that God isn't going to elevate Satan to full sonship in a similar manner that He is each of us.  Satan may in some manner remain a messenger of the order of Gabriel or Michael who remained obedient and faithful during their service to God.  (not by their free will but according to their assignment) It is intimidating to me to think that great and powerful beings such as Gabriel and Michael who had such astounding responsibilities and delegated authority, will someday relate to us as servants of God's elected children.  Astounding!

One idea that comes to mind and that may not apply here, is that the angels know that they will not die.  They may be in some manner immortal already.  That is not to say that they cannot be destroyed if God wills, but they don't need food or oxygen to continue to exist.  So, in that manner they are quite different from us.

Also, the angels were never conceived of their parents and never had to grow and mature from infants to adults, with dependence upon another human for their continued existance; as far as we know.

Then there are the 24 elders.  There is so much yet to learn and if this discussion is to decide whether we are raised spirit and then whether spirit can be corrected or purified, then perhaps I don't see the NEED to KNOW.

We were made to be selfish and have the basic need to be changed.
Satan was made to tempt or test human kind and God made him as he is for a good purpose, so who is accountable for Satan's character?

Just my musings.  Indiana bob
Logged

Akira329

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 718
  • "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2008, 05:00:27 AM »

Hey Fe,
I'd like to throw myself into the pot!

Psa 104:4  Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Mar 1:23  And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mar 1:24  Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
Mar 1:25  And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
Mar 1:26  And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mar 1:27  And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Act 8:5  Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:6  And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Act 8:7  For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
Act 8:8  And there was great joy in that city.

Act 19:11  And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Act 19:12  So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Rev 16:13  And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14  For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

If I am understanding scripture correctly there are obviously unclean spirits, and Jesus, his apostles and even the lake of fire will cast out these spirits. Mind you there are more scriptures that show the power of Jesus and his chosen having power over these unclean spirits.
I don’t know at anytime that Satan was and is a spiritual being but scriptures do imply it.
Ray seems to make a point that Satan is always referred to as a serpent or dragon or devil (as scriptures refer to him as)
Since he is the father of lies, deception, and these acts are evil I’m going to say that Satan has unclean spirits. Also if he didn’t have unclean spirits why would he need to be thrown in the lake of fire?
Also no where in scripture does it say that spirits are incorruptible just by being a spirit (where by we have unclean spirits) Surely unclean spirits must be corruptible?? Sounds strange to me but then again corruption must put on incorruption.
Also Satan himself may be an unclean spirit and purged totally from the earth in the lake of fire??? Hope I’m not speaking as a fool!! If I am I stand to be corrected!

Hopes this helps Fe (symbol for Iron, hope your being sharpened!)
Antaiwan

Logged
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

jerreye

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2008, 07:09:30 AM »


Is Ezekiel 37 not a parable? Does Ray interpret this as a literal, physical event of dry bones literally coming together because of some literal shaking? The language seems to imply that the dry bones symbolize a people void of the living waters of TRUTH and are completely "dried up"...SPIRITUALLY speaking. God then gives them the knowledge of the truth by making those "dry bones" come to LIFE (not physically, but SPIRITUALLY) and then puts them "into their OWN LAND" (NEW Jerusalem). I believe that this "coming to LIFE" is vividly portrayed in metaphorical language as bones coming together with tendons, skin and breath (which are the essential elements that form a LIVING PERSON). Is this not the message of Ezekiel 37? I don't see how this can be taken literally. I don't see any "humiliation" here at all.

God also states that he will give them a "heart of FLESH". Ray admits and teaches that this is not LITERAL, but SPIRITUAL. Israel had a hear of STONE. This heart of FLESH is an obvious metaphor, symbolizing a PURE heart. Well, to me, the "dry bones" coming to life symbolizes a spiritually dead person being given the living waters of LIFE/TRUTH.

Psalms 63:1 "O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my FLESH longeth for thee in a DRY AND THIRSTY LAND, where no water [truth] is"
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a DRY GROUND: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
Matthew 12:43 "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through DRY PLACES, seeking rest, and findeth none"


Hey, I've been wrong before! One day we will know for sure! :)

Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2008, 09:27:16 AM »


Is Ezekiel 37 not a parable? Does Ray interpret this as a literal, physical event of dry bones literally coming together because of some literal shaking? The language seems to imply that the dry bones symbolize a people void of the living waters of TRUTH and are completely "dried up"...SPIRITUALLY speaking. God then gives them the knowledge of the truth by making those "dry bones" come to LIFE (not physically, but SPIRITUALLY) and then puts them "into their OWN LAND" (NEW Jerusalem). I believe that this "coming to LIFE" is vividly portrayed in metaphorical language as bones coming together with tendons, skin and breath (which are the essential elements that form a LIVING PERSON). Is this not the message of Ezekiel 37? I don't see how this can be taken literally. I don't see any "humiliation" here at all.

God also states that he will give them a "heart of FLESH". Ray admits and teaches that this is not LITERAL, but SPIRITUAL. Israel had a hear of STONE. This heart of FLESH is an obvious metaphor, symbolizing a PURE heart. Well, to me, the "dry bones" coming to life symbolizes a spiritually dead person being given the living waters of LIFE/TRUTH.

Psalms 63:1 "O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my FLESH longeth for thee in a DRY AND THIRSTY LAND, where no water [truth] is"
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a DRY GROUND: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
Matthew 12:43 "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through DRY PLACES, seeking rest, and findeth none"


Hey, I've been wrong before! One day we will know for sure! :)

Aaahhh, but do you have a spiritual match to tendons, muscles, etc. having a spiritual meaning?  :)

To me, the scripture on 'flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom' is the giveaway. Because it is both physical flesh & blood and also carnal mindedness. That's really what I think it's all about. Will carnal minded souls receive a spiritual, immortal body? Looking at it from this perspective, I have not read anyone present any scriptures that support this view. And then, the scriptures that state those carnal-minded souls will not receive a spiritual, immortal body do not have enough detail to everyone's liking. This is no one's fault or anything, just how we are and our differences. Great thread nonetheless.


Thanks,

Marques
Logged

Dennis Vogel

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3328
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2008, 11:11:04 AM »

Hey Dennis,
Thanks again. But your reasoning assumes that a spirit being is incorruptible. So is satan incorruptible? I totally agree with you that they may both be true, but one must accept the possibility that there are different possibilities. I do not think that this will make or break me, but I think  it is important for us to analyze the facts if we are going to make a decision towards one side. So why can't a wicked man be raised with a corruptible spiritual body. It is possible if we believe that Satan is a corruptible spiritual being, right? Your thoughts?...

Fe

There are the good messengers and the bad messengers, neither of which will come up in the resurrection.

I can only repeat what Ray said that makes perfect sense to me:

Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection?  Well many say “YES, yes they will.”  NO, no they WON’T!  Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?”   Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”

Saddam Hussein was corrupt and will come up in the resurrection still corrupt. He will have to go through what the elect are now going through to inherit incorruption. He doesn't get a free pass to a spirit being that is more limited in it's ability to receive correction.

Let's not forget that the former resurrection is the better, more desirable of the two resurrections. I'd much rather come up as a spirit that no longer feels any discomfort or pain than in this body.

Heb 2:7  Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Concordant: Heb 2:7 Thou makest him some bit inferior to messengers, With glory and honor Thou wreathest him, And dost place him over the works of Thy hands."

Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Right now, we are inferior to Satan in some respects. One of which is he is a spirit being with the ability to directly communicate with the Lord.

It is the elect who do the judging, not the messengers. Saddam Hussein will have to deal with the elect as a human being before he is made incorruptible and has direct access to the Lord. Just as the elect have to be judged now as human beings before they will have direct access to the Lord.

Dennis
Logged

AK4

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2008, 02:46:03 PM »

i believe it all has to do with inheriting the kingdom.  According to Dan 12:2  all are raised to age-lasting something, but is that the same as inheriting the kingdom.  Is it to far a stretch to say the kingdom of heaven is in the mind?  Remember Jesus was in heaven while He was on earth also,
So the unjust may be raised with a spiritual body like satan, but still have a carnal mind and not be in the kingdom while the others are in the kingdom of heaven (mind) (the just) also with a spiritual bodies.

So i guess this lead to the question what is the kingdom of heaven.  According to Rays teachings it has something to do with the mind.

Anthony
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2008, 03:19:26 PM »

i believe it all has to do with inheriting the kingdom.  According to Dan 12:2  all are raised to age-lasting something, but is that the same as inheriting the kingdom.  Is it to far a stretch to say the kingdom of heaven is in the mind?  Remember Jesus was in heaven while He was on earth also,
So the unjust may be raised with a spiritual body like satan, but still have a carnal mind and not be in the kingdom while the others are in the kingdom of heaven (mind) (the just) also with a spiritual bodies.

So i guess this lead to the question what is the kingdom of heaven.  According to Rays teachings it has something to do with the mind.
Anthony


Hello Anthony,

I understand your viewpoint, but what saith the scriptures?

1 Cor 15

38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47  The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood [carnal mindedness] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption [corrupt, carnal mind will not inherit spiritual, immortal, incorruptable bodies.


It is a contradiction of scripture to state carnal minded souls inheriting spiritual, immortal bodies. I'm not trying to be harsh, but where is SCRIPTURE that states the wicked inheriting spiritual, immortal bodies BEFORE going through judgment. This is one of the many wonderful purposes for judgment. The spiritual body is representative to our spiritual minds; also remember spirit is like the wind...how can a carnal mind (physical) be in a spiritual, invisible body?

Also, please don't think I am trying to debate; I always discuss the Word directly so nothing personable to anyone reading. We are all seeking the same thing: CHRIST!  ;D

Thanks,

Marques
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2008, 03:46:54 PM »


Hi Anthony,

Here is the Scripture you were referring to.

Dan 12:2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."

I think the key is in the Scriptrue Dennis posted from Ray.

Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection?  Well many say “YES, yes they will.”  NO, no they WON’T!  Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?”   Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”

It seems to me most use 1 Cor . 15 to imply all will be raised spirit being.  But notice who Paul is speaking to.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I make known unto you The joyful message, which I myself announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand;

Now notice that the subject is to "be made alive."

1Co 15:20 But, now, hath Christ been raised from among the dead,—a firstfruit of them who have fallen asleep;
v.21 For, since indeed, through a man, came death, through a man, also cometh the raising of the dead;
v. 22 For, just as, in the Adam, all die, so, also, in the Christ, shall all be made alive.
v. 23 But, each, in his own rank:—A firstfruit, Christ, after that, they who are the Christ’s, in his presence,

Paul goes on to elaborate more on this resurrection, as to be "raised in incorruption," "raised in glory,"  "raised in power,"  "raised a body of the spirit."  This must be only talking about those in the first resurrection.

1Co 15:42 Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption,
v. 43 It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power,
v. 44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—

Isn't this the blessing talked about in Rev. 20.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

AK4

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2008, 07:50:10 PM »

Good posts Marquess and Kat

I see my error

Thanks,

Anthony :)
Logged

jerreye

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2008, 08:39:09 PM »

Hi Kat,

You say:

Quote
Paul goes on to elaborate more on this resurrection, as to be "raised in incorruption," "raised in glory,"  "raised in power,"  "raised a body of the spirit."  This must be only talking about those in the first resurrection.

How do you know that this "MUST" be talking of ONLY the FIRST resurrection? It doesn't say that. It says "the resurrection of the DEAD". Since ALL will be "resurrected from the DEAD", this must be talking about the just AND the unjust, since it does not tell us which of the two resurrections he was talking about. Paul could have said the "BETTER resurrection of the dead" as he did in Phil 3:11....but he did not do that. He is making reference to THE resurrection of the dead, which according to Acts 24:15 includes both the just AND the unjust.

To be honest, I'm not 100% convinced EITHER way. I'm just trying to collect all the evidence and make a sound conclusion :)

Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2008, 08:59:54 PM »

It seems to me most use 1 Cor . 15 to imply all will be raised spirit being.  But notice who Paul is speaking to.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I make known unto you The joyful message, which I myself announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand;

Now notice that the subject is to "be made alive."

1Co 15:20 But, now, hath Christ been raised from among the dead,—a firstfruit of them who have fallen asleep;
v.21 For, since indeed, through a man, came death, through a man, also cometh the raising of the dead;
v. 22 For, just as, in the Adam, all die, so, also, in the Christ, shall all be made alive.
v. 23 But, each, in his own rank:—A firstfruit, Christ, after that, they who are the Christ’s, in his presence,

Paul goes on to elaborate more on this resurrection, as to be "raised in incorruption," "raised in glory,"  "raised in power,"  "raised a body of the spirit."  This must be only talking about those in the first resurrection.

1Co 15:42 Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption,
v. 43 It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power,
v. 44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—


This is why Kat stated it is talking of those in the first resurrection...because of the first scriptures in ch. 15 of 1 Corinthians, not her own opinion.


Marques
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2008, 09:22:14 PM »


Thanks Marques,

Yes that is why I stated it 'must' be the first, because of all the references in the rest of the chapter.  Those in the first resurrection will also be in the resurrection of the dead, but it will be to "life."  The rest will be to "condemnation," or as some translations say "judgment."  But that is still the same "resurrection of the dead," just 2 different cateorgies.

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29  and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

I see a clear difference here, but that's my opinion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

pylady

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2008, 12:30:17 AM »

1Cor 15?42  "Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption (is this speaking of body and mind?), it is raised in incorruption (then this would have to mean both body and mind), vs43) it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.

If these verses are speaking of both the just and the unjust,  then the unjust are raised in incorruption, with glory and power.
What need would they have to go thru the lake of fire?? ???

Don't mean to offend anyone but this sounds to me like the apostate churches teaching of being changed immediately when you die and sent to heaven or hell before being judged at the White Throne Judgement.

Peace,

           Cindy :)
Logged

fe32k

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2008, 02:48:38 AM »

Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:

Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?

incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.

And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.

Thanks!
Fe
Logged

digitalwise

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2008, 03:39:24 AM »

1Cor 15?42  "Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption (is this speaking of body and mind?), it is raised in incorruption (then this would have to mean both body and mind), vs43) it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.

If these verses are speaking of both the just and the unjust,  then the unjust are raised in incorruption, with glory and power.
What need would they have to go thru the lake of fire?? ???

Don't mean to offend anyone but this sounds to me like the apostate churches teaching of being changed immediately when you die and sent to heaven or hell before being judged at the White Throne Judgement.

Peace,

           Cindy :)

Hi Cindy,

I do not mean to offend anyone but is not the Great White throne the "clearing house" for the just and unjust or elect and not elect whom will be purged.

Aka - Rev 20 = resurrection of ALL mankind. Lamb's Book of life and those not found. and then Justice!

Digitalwise
Logged

cjwood

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2008, 03:59:41 AM »

Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:

Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?

incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.

And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.

Thanks!
Fe









fe,
you state that you are just trying to understand why ray has made up his mind on this. i believe it is time you emailed ray and asked him directly. ray not be able to type due to his pain at this time, but he is able to relay his response to you via one of the moderators who speaks to him on a regular basis.

claudia
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2008, 09:31:51 AM »

Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:
Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?
incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.

And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.
Thanks!
Fe

fe,
you state that you are just trying to understand why ray has made up his mind on this. i believe it is time you emailed ray and asked him directly. ray not be able to type due to his pain at this time, but he is able to relay his response to you via one of the moderators who speaks to him on a regular basis.

claudia

I have to agree with Claudia as well...your comments and line of thinking seem to be in conflict with what Ray has taught.

I'll also say from personal experience...it's good if you have some scripture when presenting a different point of view with Ray. I didn't and of course fell flat on my face when scripture was presented.

The one thing I've noticed (and you can go back and look for yourself) is that you have yet to present any scriptures, only human reasoning. That is always a red flag with me even with my own thoughts. The scriptures have to be our foundation as the Word is Christ, that rock. Your reasoning seems to hedge on humans being resurrected into spiritual, immortal bodies but with carnal minds like Satan is now. Interesting thought, but again, where are the scriptures to support that? I have never read that the children of the devil (wicked [John 8:44]) being fashioned into Satan's image.

I also had this thought which I discussed with a friend regarding this subject:

Matt. 23:24-26   Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Do we think our Lord wouldn't take his own guidance and counsel? Why would he place a carnal mind & heart into a spiritual body (which is invisible by the way [John 3:8])? That's like cleaning the outside of the cup (body) before cleaning the inside (carnal heart & mind).


Hope this helps,

Marques
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2008, 11:09:13 AM »

Isa 26:19  Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body5038 shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
 
Isa 26:20  Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

 
H5038
נבלה
nebêlâh
neb-ay-law'
From H5034; a flabby thing, that is, a carcase or carrion (human or bestial, often collective); figuratively an idol: -  (dead) body, (dead) carcase, dead of itself, which died, (beast) that (which) dieth of itself.

Marques presented some compelling scripture from Ezekiel 37, here is a second witness to what he posted, it seems apparent that the bodies being raised are corpses, beastly dead carcases....... However His chosen have a "better promise."

Peace,

Joe




 
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2008, 11:56:38 AM »


Hi Fe,

Quote
But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible?

I think I do understand your point and here what I see in the Scriptures. 

Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
v. 6  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
v. 7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
v. 9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
v. 10  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Only those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be given this "life."  Now a little further down we see that this "life" is for the "heirs," to be "glorified" with Him.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17  and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

This is the reward of the just, the rest of creation "will be delivered," so it is yet to happen.

Rom 8:21  because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(NKJV)

It tells us in 1 Cor. that as Adam was "the man of dust" and so are all humanity.

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
v. 47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
v. 48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
v. 49  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Now in verse 49 Paul says "we" he is talking to the Believers, "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man."  Here it is in the Concordant.

1Co 15:49 And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."

Now isn't this saying that those Believers/Elect will also be brought into "image of the heavenly man" at the resurrection?  This image being heavenly - Celestial, which is spirit and unless you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you are still of Adam and "made of dust" and dust/flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

1Co 6:9  Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.

But we do know who does inherit the Kingdom, His sheep, those that know His voice (John 10:4, 27).

Mat 25:34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

Akira329

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 718
  • "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2008, 03:28:37 PM »

Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:

Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?

incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.

And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.

Thanks!
Fe

I think I understand your question.
My question then is why would God raise a carnel minded man to a spiritual body and yet still have his carnel mind? It would definitely be easy to then to rid yourself of carnel lust of the flesh since I don't have them any more, I have a spiritual body now!!whoopee!!
I can go to and fro like the wind now. No one will know when or were I'm coming from! Also take into the fact that carnel(which means fleshy) now dwells in an invisible body???HUH?? This doesn't work, at least not according to scripture.

All things are possible with God but this is not apart of his plan.
Also what is the purpose of a spiritual body? I think it has been stated already.
Men are flesh they must be dealt with accordingly.
 
This question is similar to asking why couldn't Adam be a spiritual being at the beginning?
It just wasn't God's plan nor his way of accomplishing his purpose.
Whats even more interesting to me is that God is dealing with these carnel minded men and wicked spirits the same way, with fire!! SO what does it matter if men are raised to be wicked spirits, they will be dealt with!!(But again this is not what God is doing)

Antaiwan
Logged
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.032 seconds with 23 queries.