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Author Topic: Physical Bodies at ressurrection  (Read 23052 times)

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pylady

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2008, 08:44:33 PM »

Hi Digitalwise,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the GWT being a "clearing house", but here is what I've come to understand from the scriptures and from Ray's writings on these scriptures.  As always please correct me if I am wrong, I'm just a student as we all are.

My understanding: The Great White Throne Judgment is not a one time moment in time, but a time of judgment for all mankind.  The elect are being judged now in this age (whether we can call this part of the GWT judgment or not, I'm not
sure).  It is these same elect who will judge the rest of mankind in their GWT judgment, those who live thru the end of this age and the rest who are brought back to life.  This will take time - just as the judgment of the elect takes time - all of their lives.

Please don't think I am implying that anyone on this forum is teaching apostasy.  We are all struggling to understand and are being guided by His Spirit.  What I meant is that the churches have the cart before the horse.  Judgment after the "reward". or rather the reward of being raised spirit to see Christ Jesus face to face before the judgment that must take place first.  Remember the judgment IS chastening and purging.

Sorry if I was not clear the first time.

Peace,

            Cindy

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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2008, 10:48:33 PM »


I would like to bring this Scripture in for consideration.  Peter is speaking to the Believers and in verse 3 says what they should NOT be living like the Gentiles anymore. 

But then in verse 5 he says that they/Gentiles will give account.  Is this for what they were saying in verse 4, giving account of their "speaking evil of you" Belivers? And the accounting woulf be in the Great White Throne Judgment?

1Peter 4:3  For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4  In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5  They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

But verse 6 is what I'm getting at here, as it states "they (referring to the Gentiles) might be judged according to men in the flesh."  So is this referring to the White Throne Judgment and judging men "in the flesh"?  Then they will learn to "live according to God in the spirit."

v. 6  For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Well I've looked at this a long time and that's what I see, so I'm wanted to bring this Scripture up and see what others think this is speaking of.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Akira329

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2008, 11:32:31 PM »


I would like to bring this Scripture in for consideration.  Peter is speaking to the Believers and in verse 3 says what they should NOT be living like the Gentiles anymore. 

But then in verse 5 he says that they/Gentiles will give account.  Is this for what they were saying in verse 4, giving account of their "speaking evil of you" Belivers? And the accounting woulf be in the Great White Throne Judgment?

1Peter 4:3  For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4  In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5  They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

But verse 6 is what I'm getting at here, as it states "they (referring to the Gentiles) might be judged according to men in the flesh."  So is this referring to the White Throne Judgment and judging men "in the flesh"?  Then they will learn to "live according to God in the spirit."

v. 6  For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Well I've looked at this a long time and that's what I see, so I'm wanted to bring this Scripture up and see what others think this is speaking of.

mercy, peace and love
Kat



Hey Kat,
In verse 6:
1Pe 4:6  For for this cause(the cause of Christ) was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they(the dead) might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.(men still in the flesh but walk after righteousness)

I'm not quite sure this is speaking of the white throne judgement??
I could be wrong because the words "might be" give me a since of hope or a looking forward to.
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digitalwise

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2008, 05:46:07 AM »


Quote
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the GWT being a "clearing house", but here is what I've come to understand from the scriptures and from Ray's writings on these scriptures.  As always please correct me if I am wrong, I'm just a student as we all are.

My understanding: The Great White Throne Judgment is not a one time moment in time, but a time of judgment for all mankind. 


I do not see it as one moment in time but a consumation of all things pertaining to JUDEMENTS. The reason I say   this, it is about the central figure in the redemptive drama - The Lord Jesus Christ in total declaration OVER mankind in a one off event. What follows are symbolic but only terms like sea of glass, actual throne, sky, the earth fading and the scene.

We can only take symbolism as far as it paints and declares a picture or imagine of Christ but we leave off saying or going as far as this is all pure symbolism when it comes to finality of events or consumational statements like prophesy in the end of this book of Revelations. We can believe in the teaching of resurrected bodies but how this translates to our new resurrected bodies is open to interpretation but NOT pure symbolism. That is: It will happen physically to those which are alive and remain at the time of the second coming.

Kat quoted a verse: 1Peter 4:3  For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4  In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5  They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Thus this is future, not past or present and syncs with judgements on mankind as referred by Ray.

The lake of fire and what follows are difficult verses to contend with. These are not literal but imply purging and cleansing as all fire does in the bible = both spiritually and physical purging.
 
Quote
The elect are being judged now in this age (whether we can call this part of the GWT judgment or not, I'm not
sure). 
 

Why has judgement already passed on us? I'm saying it has not - I agree with you - but why has it? Think of your answer after reading this.

Quote
It is these same elect who will judge the rest of mankind in their GWT judgment, those who live thru the end of this age and the rest who are brought back to life.  This will take time - just as the judgment of the elect takes time - all of their lives.


There is no mention of our judging anyone at the Great White Throne. We and all mankind are implicated in this resurrection and are to be judged by the power, majesty, grace, love and authority of Christ! No man comes to the FATHER but by me [Jesus]! Emphasis must be placed on the coloring derivatives of this powerful word usage of judge. That's why God used GREEK language in the scriptures.

The Great White Throne is controversial in end time theology these days. Some say there are two seats of judgement. The Bema Seat and the Great White Throne. I believe there is ONE JUDGEMENT SEAT! These judgements ARE NOT to be confused with NOT just judgements*, but FINALITY and DECLARATIONS of God's SALVATION  for mankind. I will draw your attention to the verse in that Chapter.

*Greek krinō in Rev 20:13

Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

As you can see the meaning of judgements does NOT just imply sinful or reprobate in the body resurrection of mankind! It is also a COMPLETION.

Quote
Please don't think I am implying that anyone on this forum is teaching apostasy.  We are all struggling to understand and are being guided by His Spirit.  What I meant is that the churches have the cart before the horse.  Judgment after the "reward". or rather the reward of being raised spirit to see Christ Jesus face to face before the judgment that must take place first.  Remember the judgment IS chastening and purging.


As I've said judgments are not always punishment. It is incorrect to imply the word judgement in the bible always is harsh and punitive as shown by the Greek meaning.

Check the meaning Hebrews greek word on dealing with us as sons.

Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement*, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.

* paideia

pahee-di'-ah
tutorage, that is, education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.

Bless you,

Digitalwise.

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Heidi

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2008, 07:31:52 AM »

Kat quoted a verse: 1Peter 4:3  For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4  In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5  They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Thus this is future, not past or present and syncs with judgements on mankind as referred by Ray.

Ray has never claimed that the elect will not be judged in the LOF, expert from his LOF Part 3 "Every man’s work [including believers] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).

With such noble and august witnesses, does anyone deny that the repentant, converted, dedicated, believing Christian will escape being "revealed," tried," "salted," and "baptized" by FIRE? These Scriptures are undeniable! Whatever this "fire" is, it is going to be used ON EVERYONE. These four Scriptures have the believer specifically in view, but it says and includes "EVERYONE shall be salted with FIRE," and "EVERY MAN’S WORK ... shall be revealed by FIRE."

Is this "fire" in the book of Revelation DIFFERENT from the fire that tries the works of believers in the book of I Corinthians? NO. The word "fire" used in the four examples above concerning believers, is the SAME word "fire" used in the book of Revelation concerning non-believers:

STRONG’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 219, #4442, pur; a primary word; "fire" (literally OR FIGURATIVELY. Pur is used (besides its ordinary natural significance):

(1) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Heb. 10:27; 12:29; cf. Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12;

(1a) similarly of the holy angels as His ministers, Heb. 1:7;

(1b) in Rev. 3:18 it is SYMBOLIC of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD;

(2) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ I Cor. 3:13 and 15;

(3) of the fire of DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the REJECTERS of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the holy Spirit at Pentecost and the "fire" of divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Lk. 3:16."



I call your attention to the statement in Strong’s (1b) "In Rev. 3:18 it [fire] is SYMBOLIC, of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD"! (CAPS emphasis mine).

I just love it when Christian Scholars will occasionally just absolutely "nail" a Scriptural Truth. Notice this beautiful and profound Scriptural Truth: The symbolic fire of Rev. 3:18 tries the faith of the saints, and PRODUCES what will GLORIFY THE LORD! ASTOUNDING!

Carefully note that it is not the "believer" who "produces" these glorious things, but it is the "SYMBOLIC FIRE" that produces them. And just Who is this "symbolic fire?" It is, of course, GOD -- "For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)!

Therefore it is GOD who "PRODUCES" qualities in the saints that will GLORIFY HIMSELF! God’s consuming SPIRITUAL fire (remember that "GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24) does the "producing," not the saint,

"For HIS ACHIEVEMENT are we, being created in Christ Jesus ..." (Eph. 2:10).

"Now what have you which you did not OBTAIN? Now if you OBTAINED it also [from GOD] why are you boasting as though [you are] not obtaining [it from God]?" (I Cor. 4:7 Concordant Literal New Testament).

"All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).

"The One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will" (Eph. 1:11).


God corrects us by judging us, we are being chastised of the Lord now, before everone else, why....because He wants sons and daughters.

"Furthermore we have had fathers of our FLESH which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of SPIRITS, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His HOLINESS.

Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb. 12:9-11).


"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that WE [Christians, followers of Christ] MUST through MUCH TRIBULATION [Greek: thlipsis--affliction, troubles, burdens, persecution, anguish] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS that ye endure; Which is a manifest token [display] of [of WHAT?] ... OF the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT [Gk: ‘just judging’] OF GOD!"

We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
(LOF 3)

"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).

God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811

HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!

God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!

Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!

Heidi




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Heidi

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2008, 07:46:01 AM »

Also from LOF3 concerning judgement:

The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."

"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).

Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.

There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).

Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.

We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.

There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement!
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Kat

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2008, 10:32:30 AM »


Hi Digitalwise,

Quote
There is no mention of our judging anyone at the Great White Throne. We and all mankind are implicated in this resurrection and are to be judged by the power, majesty, grace, love and authority of Christ! No man comes to the FATHER but by me [Jesus]! Emphasis must be placed on the coloring derivatives of this powerful word usage of judge. That's why God used GREEK language in the scriptures.

1Cor 6:2  Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
v. 3  Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
v. 4  If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?

This is Paul stating that the Elect will judge the world and not only the world but the angels as well.
Of course Christ will judge the world, Ray teaches this all through the LOF, but He will judge the world throught the raised Saints/ELect.
Here is an excerpt where Ray teaches this in LOF no. 12

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html ----------------------

THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD

The called and chosen were born to be Judges:

"Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall JUDGE THE WORLD? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).

"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them [the saints, the manifested Sons of God]…" (Rev. 20:4).

Every man will be judged and the Saints will do the judging:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).
-------------------------------------------------------------

Here is one excerpt of many where Ray teaches that the Elect are being judged now, the first resurretion comes before the Great White Throne judgment, which is when the rest of humanity are to be judged.

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ---------------------------

So there are innumerable Scriptures that show that you and I and all humanity are or have been apollumi—lost/perished/destroyed. We all spiritually die once. The called and chosen are then judged in this lifetime, while the many called but not chosen (and all unbelievers) will be judged in the second resurrection white throne judgment.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Quote
The Great White Throne is controversial in end time theology these days.

One thing we all have learned is that all theology coming from the church is not only controversial, but in error.  That is why we are studying what Ray teaches and leaving that behind.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Kat

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2008, 12:10:08 PM »

Act 17:31  because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Psa 9:7  But the LORD shall endure forever;
       He has prepared His throne for judgment.
Psa 9:8  He shall judge the world in righteousness,
       And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.

These are just two Scripture that says Christ will judge the world

world  1 : the earth with its inhabitants and all things upon it 2 : people in general : mankind 3 : human affairs <withdraw from the ~> 4 : universe, creation 5 : a state of existence : scene of life and action  (Merriam-Webster)

The earth is 'the world,' it is the realm of human beings. This is what will be judged.  Only the Elect will enter the kingdom of heaven as spirit being.

Mat 7:21  "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

If Christ was going to raise everybody as spirit beings, then they would be in heaven.  The heavens are the domain of God and the angels - spirit beings. 

This leads to a verse I have often wondered about.

Jude 1:6  And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

Is this referring to the evil spirits/demons that roam about in this world (causing so much trouble, for which they will be judged), having let their proper domain, which is heaven?  This seems to make sense, since the messengers of God only come in the world of humans when sent on a mission.

Just some more thoughts on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 12:57:25 PM by Kat »
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indianabob

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2008, 01:27:25 PM »

Also from LOF3 concerning judgement:

The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."

"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).

Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.

There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).

Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.

We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.

There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement!


Friend Heidi,

Good commentary, helpful.

Please expound a little more on your statement about the "volunteering heart and accepting the judgments of God on our lives now in this life."

I am inclined to agree and I want to be sure that I am not taking undue credit for the acceptance or the volunteering. We understand that our choices are influenced by causes God places in our life.  How does this relate to personal acceptance?
Many who have come from a "free choice" background will wonder about this view of God's way of working in us.  We understand logically that God is SOVEREIGN and yet we think we are cooperating with God to some extent.

Indiana Bob
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ericsteven

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2008, 03:48:53 PM »

I am tending towards Ray’s explanation of the physical resurrection of unbelievers from what he says in the following:

…those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies.

That makes perfect sense to me.  That said, I don’t believe Ezekiel 37 can be used to substantiate this.  (And yes, what I say below is only my interpretation, just as Marques and Joe have their interpretation, so take it as you will).

Let me begin by asking, does anyone here believe that the things spoken of in Revelation are literal events that John was seeing?  Well, of course not, because:

1.   John was seeing a vision while being in the Spirit
2.   it is told to us that the revelation is signified, that is, told in signs and symbols, by Jesus to his servant John

Now, if we had not been informed that the book had been signified, would anyone here still believe that the great whore was literally a gaudily dressed woman prancing around the earth on a great red dragon, or for that matter, that the great seven headed beast was literally a great monster with seven heads and ten horns occasionally rising up out of the ocean like Nessie at Loch Ness?  I’ll take a chance and say no.  You’d probably still believe these images were symbolic or metaphoric simply because it said that John was in the Spirit seeing these things in vision.

So then why are some taking Ezekiel 37, where the chapter clearly begins…

Ezekiel 37:1      The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD…,

…to be not symbolic or metaphoric, but something literal, as in literal bodies being resurrected from the earth?  Yes, God does say He will bring them up out of their graves, but when we first see these bones they're not in graves, but lying all jumbled together in a valley.  What valley could this be?  Perhaps the valley of the shadow of death?  What I mean is: true, there are no “spiritual matches” as Marques said for tendons and muscles and such being put onto bones anywhere else in Scripture, but do "spiritual matches" have to necessarily include the exact words that are used in whatever vision one is talking about?  What about "spiritual matches" that include similiar ideas or similiar visions? 

What I mean is that it is not unlike God to give multiple visions or explanations to people to explain exactly the same event.  So what if we read the rest of that same chapter?  The latter half of Ezekiel 37 describes the Lord telling Ezekiel to take two sticks, one for the House of Judah and one for the House of Israel, and put them together to make one stick.  In this way, the Lord will rejoin the whole house of Israel that was split during the time of Solomon’s son, Rehoboam, by bringing the two houses, both cut off from God and scattered throughout the nations - being essentially dead - into the land He had promised Abraham and make them one nation.

Ezekiel 37:19   Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim…even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 

Ezekiel 37:21ff   Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (nations), whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:  And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all   

This is exactly what can be seen in metaphoric language in Ezekial 37:12.

Ezekial 37:12   Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

The kingdom of the House of Israel, which ceased to exist after God scattered them among the worldly nations after the Assyrian captivity and gave them a writ of divorce, was to be brought back together with the kingdom of the House of Judah, which mostly disappeared after the Babylonian captivity and then ceased to exist totally after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and become one nation again as it was under the reign of the blessed king David.  This time they would have the Christ as their king, who is symbolized in this passage by David.

Ezekiel 37:24-25   And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd…and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Now, if we look in the chapter before, chapter 36, we have another description of this same event.

Ezekiel 36:24ff   For I will take you from among the heathen (nations), and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

The whole nation of Israel was dead, spiritually dead as is described by the heart of stone.  But the Lord would revive them spiritually by giving them a heart of flesh, and the entire nation would be resurrected when God would bring them back into the land that God had promised their fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  In fact, God describes this resurrection of national Israel in verse 35-36.

Ezekiel 36:35ff   And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.  Then the heathen (nations) that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

Has any of this happened yet?  I don’t think so.  Anyone who says that the nation of Israel founded in 1948 is absolute fulfillment of these visions given to Ezekiel hasn’t really read them very well.  Hardly any of the Jewish people in Palestine accept Jesus as their Messiah so therefore their hearts are still as stony as the hearts of the Pharisees in the first century.

However, I do think that the process has started, and it started at the first appearing of our Lord on the earth.  Here is what Jesus says in John 5:25.

John 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The dead He's talking about here aren't physically dead people, but spiritually dead people.  The words of Jesus were, even at that time, and are, continuing even to today, resurrecting the spiritually dead with hearts of stone and replacing them with hearts of flesh, able to see and understand what God is doing with His chosen people and with all the nations of the earth.

Ezekiel 37 is a description of the resurrection of the nation of Israel to the land promised to them (the New Jerusalem?) sometime before, during, after (I don’t know) the return of our Lord, not a description of the individual resurrection of people at the last day to reward and judgment.  Yes, if we look at Ezekiel 37:1-14 all by themselves, it’s easy to come up with the latter explanation.  But when taken along with the rest of what God is showing Ezekiel, I think that that explanation has a few flaws.

God bless,

Eric


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mharrell08

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2008, 04:22:52 PM »

…to be not symbolic or metaphoric, but something literal, as in literal bodies being resurrected from the earth?  Yes, God does say He will bring them up out of their graves, but when we first see these bones they're not in graves, but lying all jumbled together in a valley.  What valley could this be?  Perhaps the valley of the shadow of death?  What I mean is: true, there are no “spiritual matches” as Marques said for tendons and muscles and such being put onto bones anywhere else in Scripture, but do "spiritual matches" have to necessarily include the exact words that are used in whatever vision one is talking about?  What about "spiritual matches" that include similiar ideas or similiar visions? 

Eric

Excellent point Eric and I agree completely with the scriptures and how they state Ezekial was seeing a vision.  ;)

I looked at the muscles & tendons being put back on as literal they way Ray described the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Abraham was in the parable but he still represented Abraham. That's how I looked at this vision: muscles and tendons represent muscles and tendons though the vision is not about those particular bones in the vision but the House of Israel as Lazarus and the rich man did not mean a literal Lazarus and rich man. But I understand completely where you're coming from.


Thanks,

Marques

P.S.  Just had a thought...when all of Israel is to be resurrected, they would ALL be in physical bodies as they have yet to accept Jesus as the messiah. Even the OT saints as grace came through Jesus. So like Eric pointed out, the vision is concerning the house of Israel but they would have to be in physical bodies to be made perfect through US. Very interesting...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 04:27:25 PM by mharrell08 »
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jerreye

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2008, 05:48:37 PM »

Hi Eric, you said:

Quote
I am tending towards Ray’s explanation of the physical resurrection of unbelievers from what he says in the following:

…those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies.

However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet, therefore will not BE in judgement at that time. They have to die first, do they not?

So, it seems to me that Ray's point here is moot. (However, this does beg the question then...does the second resurrection in fact take place at the END of the 1000 Year Reign after all?)

Could it be that the 1000 Year Reign is a period of judgment for the NATIONS (a macro judgment, if you will) and the Lake of Fire at the end is the judgement of each individual (a micro judgment)?

I absolutely agree with you that Ezekiel 37 is a vision (and/or parable) and not to be taken literally.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 06:05:37 PM by jerreye »
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mharrell08

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2008, 06:35:45 PM »

However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet, therefore will not BE in judgement at that time. They have to die first, do they not?

1 Cor. 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Matt. 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell [hades; grave] shall not prevail against it

To die first is spiritual as not all will sleep; not all will be in hades/grave

So, it seems to me that Ray's point here is moot. (However, this does beg the question then...does the second resurrection in fact take place at the END of the 1000 Year Reign after all?)

Please read LOF Pt. 16-D5 http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm. Also making a statement that Ray's statement is 'moot' begins to cross into debating with what we all have learned here at bible-truths and breaking the forum rules. This is how debates, arguments, and eventual defections start. Just saying, thread carefully.  ;)

Could it be that the 1000 Year Reign is a period of judgment for the NATIONS (a macro judgment, if you will) and the Lake of Fire at the end is the judgement of each individual (a micro judgment)?

Scriptures? Where is the shadow/type from the OT? God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. What Israel physically went through, we go through spiritually.

I absolutely agree with you that Ezekiel 37 is a vision (and/or parable) and not to be taken literally.

As with Abraham in the Lazarus and the Rich man parable, Abraham represented Abraham. Tendons & muscles could very well represent tendons & muscles even though it is a vision.

There has yet to be any scriptures posted in support of the carnal/wicked receiving spiritual bodies. 4 pages long and still no scripture. We also are not making any progress between the 2 different points of view. We may need to let this one go ladies and gentlemen....I'm out.   :)


Marques
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 06:40:09 PM by mharrell08 »
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ericsteven

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2008, 07:12:37 PM »

Quote
However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet, therefore will not BE in judgement at that time. They have to die first, do they not?

This is my explanation.  Perhaps this will help.

Here is the verse you’re referring to:

Hebrews 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Peter speaks of this judgment in I Peter.

I Peter 4:17   For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Peter said judgment must begin at the house of God, and went on to say that it begins with ‘us,’ the chosen.

Jesus says in Luke:

Luke 12:49   I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Ray goes to great lengths to prove that this fire is the judgment that Peter is referring to in his first epistle.  Look even at the verses right before verse 49 to understand that, in fact, Jesus is talking about judgment.

Luke 12:47ff    And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

So if that is true, than by what you’re saying, Peter, Paul and the rest of the apostles, prior to them going into all the world with the Holy Spirit, must have physically died and been physically resurrected to face the judgment that Peter said must begin with ‘us’ and Jesus said was already in the world.

But we know that’s not the case.  Peter, Paul and many of the apostles physically died after saying and writing all these things.  So what does it mean?  It means that they died in some form or fashion before they entered the judgment which they were then experiencing.

The verse in Hebrews 9:27 is not the end of the thought.  The writer (perhaps Paul) goes on to say:

Heb 9:28   So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This is one of those “as this is true, so this is true” statements.  So what is said in verse 27 must have something to do with verse 28.  Would it be too out of reach to say that we participate in His death by dying with Him once in Baptism by the Holy Spirit just as He died once for us on the cross?  This baptism is not by water, but by the Holy Spirit; a lot of people have been baptized in water and not been truly baptized by the Holy Spirit as evidenced by their thoughts and actions.  But once those chosen by God die through baptism by the Holy Spirit, they are ready to be judged, just as the apostles were judged after being baptized by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

Romans 6:4ff     Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.   For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Physical death is just a product of what we are, flesh.  Unless acted against by God, it will happen to everyone, even those who have been chosen, because we are all flesh.  It even happened to Jesus, because He took our likeness as a flesh and blood human being.

But the way I see it, everyone, whether now or in the future after the return of Christ, must participate in the death of Jesus by being baptized with the Holy Spirit before they can experience judgment.  We will know that those who have died physically in Christ as well as those who are physically alive in Christ when He comes, will have already been through judgment because they will be resurrected with or be changed to have the kind of body that Paul describes in I Corinthians.

I Cor. 15:52    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

All unbelievers and those who are not chosen who either are raised from physical life or live into the age to come and the reign of Jesus on the earth with physical bodies will have to accept Jesus by entering into His death through baptism of the Holy Spirit.  It may be easier for those in the age to come to accept Christ as their Savior since He will be right there for all to see, but as Ray has somewhere written (not sure where), just because someone accepts Christ by having the Holy Spirit enter their heart doesn’t mean that judgment, chastisement, and punishment disappears.  And once their judgment is complete, they will also be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Does that make any kind of sense?

God bless,

Eric
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Kat

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2008, 07:29:57 PM »


Hi Jerreye,

Quote
However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet,

Okay here is another perspective to consider.

Rev 20:15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This Scripture states "anyone," so I take that to mean all people that have lived, except the Elect will be cast into the lake of fire/judgment.  Now that must mean those that are still living will have to stand before Christ and give account with the rest of humanity.

Rom 14:9  For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
v. 10  But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

And there is this Scripture that says no one can see God and live.  

Exo 33:20  But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."

So you can see where I'm going with this, it looks like all will die once before the judgment.  Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, but just what I see in these Scripture.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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ericsteven

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2008, 07:52:01 PM »

Here's a quick verse that may be of some help:

I Cor. 1:28-29  and the base things of the world, and the things despised did God choose, and the things that are not, that the things that are He may make useless -- that no flesh may glory before Him;

If no flesh is to glory before him, how can unbelieviers and those not chosen be raised at His coming as Paul says 'in glory?'

Something to think about.

God bless,

Eric
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jerreye

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2008, 08:49:22 PM »

Hi Eric: You said:

Quote
So if that is true, than by what you’re saying, Peter, Paul and the rest of the apostles, prior to them going into all the world with the Holy Spirit, must have physically died and been physically resurrected to face the judgment that Peter said must begin with ‘us’ and Jesus said was already in the world.

This is not what I am saying :) They in fact DID die. In fact they died DAILY -- to themselves. Are we as believers not BURIED into His Death? This IS their/our first death. Since we DO die daily in Christ and are BURIED with Him IN death (yet even though we LIVE), we as believers are now being judged.

The "wicked" who survive the end of this age have not died at all, neither physically nor to themselves. See what I mean?

Hi Kat,

As for this passage you gave:

Rom 14:9  For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

I believe this to mean that since God wants to be the God of the dead and the living, He will have to resurrect them, as He promised to do. It says He is NOT the God of the dead, so in order to BE the God Of the dead, He will have to resurrect them to life. This is how I see it.

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is NOT the God of the dead, but of the living.

As for this one:

Exo 33:20  But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."

Perhaps this is talking of the Father? After all, MANY "saw" Christ Himself as the Risen Savior and DID in fact live. Saul saw Jesus and lived.

At any rate, I appreciate all your input and will respect all of your opinions. I think that this is a topic that we simply will not fully know for sure until we witness it.

I love you all :)

« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:05:12 PM by jerreye »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2008, 09:11:05 PM »

Quote
God is NOT the God of the dead, but of the living

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2008, 09:17:43 PM »



If no flesh is to glory before him, how can unbelieviers and those not chosen be raised at His coming as Paul says 'in glory?'



Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Gal 6:8  For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Physical Bodies at ressurrection
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2008, 09:24:05 PM »


I absolutely agree with you that Ezekiel 37 is a vision (and/or parable) and not to be taken literally.
 

On what scriptural authority? Isn't prophecy also spiritual?

Is the following not to be taken literally either?




 Isaiah 53

 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

 9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 Was this not fulfilled in the physical?

 Joe
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