> General Discussions
Physical Bodies at ressurrection
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: ericsteven on October 22, 2008, 12:48:53 PM ---…to be not symbolic or metaphoric, but something literal, as in literal bodies being resurrected from the earth? Yes, God does say He will bring them up out of their graves, but when we first see these bones they're not in graves, but lying all jumbled together in a valley. What valley could this be? Perhaps the valley of the shadow of death? What I mean is: true, there are no “spiritual matches” as Marques said for tendons and muscles and such being put onto bones anywhere else in Scripture, but do "spiritual matches" have to necessarily include the exact words that are used in whatever vision one is talking about? What about "spiritual matches" that include similiar ideas or similiar visions?
Eric
--- End quote ---
Excellent point Eric and I agree completely with the scriptures and how they state Ezekial was seeing a vision. ;)
I looked at the muscles & tendons being put back on as literal they way Ray described the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Abraham was in the parable but he still represented Abraham. That's how I looked at this vision: muscles and tendons represent muscles and tendons though the vision is not about those particular bones in the vision but the House of Israel as Lazarus and the rich man did not mean a literal Lazarus and rich man. But I understand completely where you're coming from.
Thanks,
Marques
P.S. Just had a thought...when all of Israel is to be resurrected, they would ALL be in physical bodies as they have yet to accept Jesus as the messiah. Even the OT saints as grace came through Jesus. So like Eric pointed out, the vision is concerning the house of Israel but they would have to be in physical bodies to be made perfect through US. Very interesting...
jerreye:
Hi Eric, you said:
--- Quote ---I am tending towards Ray’s explanation of the physical resurrection of unbelievers from what he says in the following:
…those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies.
--- End quote ---
However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet, therefore will not BE in judgement at that time. They have to die first, do they not?
So, it seems to me that Ray's point here is moot. (However, this does beg the question then...does the second resurrection in fact take place at the END of the 1000 Year Reign after all?)
Could it be that the 1000 Year Reign is a period of judgment for the NATIONS (a macro judgment, if you will) and the Lake of Fire at the end is the judgement of each individual (a micro judgment)?
I absolutely agree with you that Ezekiel 37 is a vision (and/or parable) and not to be taken literally.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: jerreye on October 22, 2008, 02:48:37 PM ---However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet, therefore will not BE in judgement at that time. They have to die first, do they not?
--- End quote ---
1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell [hades; grave] shall not prevail against it
To die first is spiritual as not all will sleep; not all will be in hades/grave
--- Quote from: jerreye on October 22, 2008, 02:48:37 PM ---So, it seems to me that Ray's point here is moot. (However, this does beg the question then...does the second resurrection in fact take place at the END of the 1000 Year Reign after all?)
--- End quote ---
Please read LOF Pt. 16-D5 http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm. Also making a statement that Ray's statement is 'moot' begins to cross into debating with what we all have learned here at bible-truths and breaking the forum rules. This is how debates, arguments, and eventual defections start. Just saying, thread carefully. ;)
--- Quote from: jerreye on October 22, 2008, 02:48:37 PM ---Could it be that the 1000 Year Reign is a period of judgment for the NATIONS (a macro judgment, if you will) and the Lake of Fire at the end is the judgement of each individual (a micro judgment)?
--- End quote ---
Scriptures? Where is the shadow/type from the OT? God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. What Israel physically went through, we go through spiritually.
--- Quote from: jerreye on October 22, 2008, 02:48:37 PM ---I absolutely agree with you that Ezekiel 37 is a vision (and/or parable) and not to be taken literally.
--- End quote ---
As with Abraham in the Lazarus and the Rich man parable, Abraham represented Abraham. Tendons & muscles could very well represent tendons & muscles even though it is a vision.
There has yet to be any scriptures posted in support of the carnal/wicked receiving spiritual bodies. 4 pages long and still no scripture. We also are not making any progress between the 2 different points of view. We may need to let this one go ladies and gentlemen....I'm out. :)
Marques
ericsteven:
--- Quote ---However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet, therefore will not BE in judgement at that time. They have to die first, do they not?
--- End quote ---
This is my explanation. Perhaps this will help.
Here is the verse you’re referring to:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Peter speaks of this judgment in I Peter.
I Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Peter said judgment must begin at the house of God, and went on to say that it begins with ‘us,’ the chosen.
Jesus says in Luke:
Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Ray goes to great lengths to prove that this fire is the judgment that Peter is referring to in his first epistle. Look even at the verses right before verse 49 to understand that, in fact, Jesus is talking about judgment.
Luke 12:47ff And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
So if that is true, than by what you’re saying, Peter, Paul and the rest of the apostles, prior to them going into all the world with the Holy Spirit, must have physically died and been physically resurrected to face the judgment that Peter said must begin with ‘us’ and Jesus said was already in the world.
But we know that’s not the case. Peter, Paul and many of the apostles physically died after saying and writing all these things. So what does it mean? It means that they died in some form or fashion before they entered the judgment which they were then experiencing.
The verse in Hebrews 9:27 is not the end of the thought. The writer (perhaps Paul) goes on to say:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
This is one of those “as this is true, so this is true” statements. So what is said in verse 27 must have something to do with verse 28. Would it be too out of reach to say that we participate in His death by dying with Him once in Baptism by the Holy Spirit just as He died once for us on the cross? This baptism is not by water, but by the Holy Spirit; a lot of people have been baptized in water and not been truly baptized by the Holy Spirit as evidenced by their thoughts and actions. But once those chosen by God die through baptism by the Holy Spirit, they are ready to be judged, just as the apostles were judged after being baptized by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
Romans 6:4ff Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Physical death is just a product of what we are, flesh. Unless acted against by God, it will happen to everyone, even those who have been chosen, because we are all flesh. It even happened to Jesus, because He took our likeness as a flesh and blood human being.
But the way I see it, everyone, whether now or in the future after the return of Christ, must participate in the death of Jesus by being baptized with the Holy Spirit before they can experience judgment. We will know that those who have died physically in Christ as well as those who are physically alive in Christ when He comes, will have already been through judgment because they will be resurrected with or be changed to have the kind of body that Paul describes in I Corinthians.
I Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
All unbelievers and those who are not chosen who either are raised from physical life or live into the age to come and the reign of Jesus on the earth with physical bodies will have to accept Jesus by entering into His death through baptism of the Holy Spirit. It may be easier for those in the age to come to accept Christ as their Savior since He will be right there for all to see, but as Ray has somewhere written (not sure where), just because someone accepts Christ by having the Holy Spirit enter their heart doesn’t mean that judgment, chastisement, and punishment disappears. And once their judgment is complete, they will also be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Does that make any kind of sense?
God bless,
Eric
Kat:
Hi Jerreye,
--- Quote ---However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet,
--- End quote ---
Okay here is another perspective to consider.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
This Scripture states "anyone," so I take that to mean all people that have lived, except the Elect will be cast into the lake of fire/judgment. Now that must mean those that are still living will have to stand before Christ and give account with the rest of humanity.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
v. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
And there is this Scripture that says no one can see God and live.
Exo 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
So you can see where I'm going with this, it looks like all will die once before the judgment. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, but just what I see in these Scripture.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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