Growth..sin to some, grace to others.

[WhoAmI]

How would you all test any spiritual growth in your walk? The reason I ask is because for many people new growth is viewed as wrong. I seen this with Jesus and the Pharisees. And many Christians call things false only because they have not moved on yet. What if someone came on here and shared a growth and because it was not revealed to us yet, we called it false. What would be a fail proof test or is it even possible, because if a person is deceived even in the slightest, it is the nature of being deceived that you know NOT that your deceived.

This scripture reminds me of this sort of happening.

Ac 10:13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."
Ac 10:14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."
Ac 10:15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."

Plus we are told to be perfect as our Father. So could this be part of the continual dragging that God does to bring us to Him?

For those of us who trust God and know He does not fail and the end result will be His Will anyhow, we can rest in us being dragged to the end. But in the relative sense what would you all say is the best "test" on these matters.

Thanks in advance for responses. 

Jeff

[aqrinc]

A few Scriptures to answer your question would be best i think. 

Test the new information against the Gospel Of Jesus Christ; That is our Real and Only Hope.

I Corinthians 2:16:
For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?  But we have the mind of Christ.

II Corinthians 4:4:
In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the
glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them.

Philippians 1:27:
Only let your conversation be as it becomes the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent,
I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 4:7:
And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

I Peter 1:13:
Why gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought to you at the
revelation of Jesus Christ; 

George.

[mharrell08]

How would you all test any spiritual growth in your walk? The reason I ask is because for many people new growth is viewed as wrong. I seen this with Jesus and the Pharisees. And many Christians call things false only because they have not moved on yet. What if someone came on here and shared a growth and because it was not revealed to us yet, we called it false. What would be a fail proof test or is it even possible, because if a person is deceived even in the slightest, it is the nature of being deceived that you know NOT that your deceived.

2 Tim 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

John 7:16-17  Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself

Gal 1:8-9  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Phil 1:27  Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;


I concur with George...the scriptures have to be the foundation for any new growth/spiritual knowledge. Christ is the Word as well as 'that Rock' which is our foundation. Christ had a doctrine that he received from His Father; we are to follow it.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[WhoAmI]

Many quote all the same scriptures in defense of their belief that they are following the Gospel of Christ. Paul is proof that knowing the scriptures doesn't amount to anything. Because the way you understand the scriptures seems to point to where you are at in your walk away from Egypt and on to the Promise Land. How many of us when we were in Babylon knew the scriptures and could quote and defend our position with the scriptures. So the idea that we base it on the scriptures does not work because with blurred eyes you make up what you want all along using the scriptures. Could the scriptures be a god and lead us astray with this mode of thought?


Jeff

[mharrell08]

Many quote all the same scriptures in defense of their belief that they are following the Gospel of Christ.

Jeff,

Quoting scriptures compared to having spiritual discernment to understand them is like night and day. It is not the same.

Paul is proof that knowing the scriptures doesn't amount to anything.

I believe you mean 'Saul' right? Saul was not converted, Paul was. His conversion was a type of putting off the old man and being spiritually converted [Eph. 4:22-23]

Because the way you understand the scriptures seems to point to where you are at in your walk away from Egypt and on to the Promise Land. How many of us when we were in Babylon knew the scriptures and could quote and defend our position with the scriptures.

What we all thought was defense of the scriptures was exposed to be contradictions which Ray has pointed out again and again. That's the main purpose of bible-truths.com.

So the idea that we base it on the scriptures does not work because with blurred eyes you make up what you want all along using the scriptures.

Again:
2 Tim 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

People make up all kinds of doctrine all over the world...but we don't need to 'make up' any doctrine as we already have one: the doctrine of Christ which was given to him by the Father [John 7:16-17]. Any spiritual growth will be in agreement with this doctrine. If it is not, it is not of God.

Could the scriptures be a god and lead us astray with this mode of thought?

Jeff

Jesus is called the Word of God. Jesus is not a 'god' he is GOD. When you DON'T look to Christ the Word of God you will be lead astray. Why would you even want to not rely on the very words that our Lord and Savior has spoken? I really am having a hard time understanding your point on this Jeff. It's like you're implying why do we use the scriptures for our foundation. If not the Word of God, what would we rely on? Jesus stated that He was the truth...when you have truth, why settle for anything else?


Marques

[OBrenda]

I think I know what Jeff is getting at.  I've though about this also!

Example my Husband and I can go to the movies, see the same movie, and when explaining it to our friends, it's like we saw two different Movies.

Why does this happen?........Perception, personal prejudices & experiences. 
Before I came to BT, I threw my hands up in the air, and said If the God of the Universe wanted to reveal Himself clearly to everybody He would have.  It must be His Will that everybody disagrees!

Then I learned from Ray about Jesus always teaching in Parables to intentional keep some in the dark, I had a "Ah Hah" moment.....

Marques is absolutely right the Scriptures are our foundation, but the interpretation of them correctly rests with the will of God.  Are we at BT off the mark or ignorant in an area, very possible, but we will find at least 2 witness to it in scripture.  And God will lead some to more truth, and some will turn to false ones.  Frightening to know that isn't it?
The whole Old testament to New Testament commandments/covenants where impossible for some to bridge.  To answer your question IMO  the Scriptures are the best test we have, they are not flawed, we are.

Hope this Helped,
Brenda

[Dave in Tenn]

Jeff, I think what you may be talking about is what we used to refer to as 'head knowledge' vs. 'heart knowledge'.  What profit is it to have all knowledge and lack love?  Faith without works is dead. Is that correct?

As Marques pointed to in Jn 7:16-18, right doctrine glorifies God.  As we handle the truth ourselves, and as we discern the teaching of others (and of spirits whispering to us), it has to pass this test...is it God glorified or the man handling/presenting it?  

It doesn't much glorify God if we have tons of 'truths' but don't obey/submit to any of them.  If the fruits of the Spirit are not becoming evident (and I mean the genuine fruits and not our fleshly imitations of them) then it matters little how much of the scripture we know.

BUT...it's only by and through the scripture that we can know Christ to follow Him at all.  The more of His Word that is in us, the more of Him that is in us.  The two go hand in hand...knowing and obeying the Word of God and doing the will of God.

This is a question for books and serious contemplation, not for easy forum replies.  But for me, testing teaching and our own lives against scripture is the way to 'live', but that life doesn't begin until we begin to know scripture.  Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, until the whole councel of God is available not just in the book but in our hearts.

[Linny]

Jeff,

I think that is an excellent question. I understand what you are saying as well. And as Brenda said, we are blind even to Scripture unless our eyes are opened by God.

You are right, people often see growth as wrong when they themselves haven't gotten there yet. I certainly have done that myself. 

Coming from a place where God has been teaching us truths outside of BT truths (along with BT truths too of course) for years now, I really understand what you are talking about. We were "wackos" (albeit more quiet ones as we didn't scream from the rooftops what we were learning) for long before we came to BT and became the ultimate wackos!

So I agree with Brenda and others that the Scriptures are our ultimate place for finding truth and finding agreement with what we are learning. But I will add to that. The second witness, IMO, is not just something found in Scripture. I think it is a principle that God uses elsewhere.

Whenever I was given a new idea and thought it was from God, I waited patiently for my second witness. Yes, I searched the Word but God always seemed to give me another second as well. It might be finding that same information in another place or meeting someone or talking to someone who becomes a second witness. Then, actually living it out, once I feel strongly it is from the Lord, ALWAYS works out beautifully when He sent the information.

I hope this helps....

Lin

[musicman]

What do you mean a growth is a sin?!!  I get growths all over my body from bad sanitation.  And we know that the "cleanliness is next to Godliness" is a false scripture, so you can't use that to justify your hatred for fungus ridden growths.  I mean, we don't have to bathe to be good with God, do we?  I am appalled that people on this forum have the audacity to criticize those of us that are comfortable with big, ugly, festering growths on our body, just because we don't try to keep our living space clean and free of disgusting toxins.

[Kat]

Hi Jeff,

What I believe is that you know it is a 'truth' when it fits neatly in with ALL the Scriptures.  There are no contradictions in the Scripture.  I look at the truth as a giant puzzle, when a piece fits in perfectly you know it is right.

What Ray has given us here to remove the errors in the translations and getting us to focus on ALL the words is a great help in our personal study of the Scriptures.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[aqrinc]

Musicman,

You just may have to do penance before too long if you keep this up. Well i guess that
is another way to keep demons out;    they figure you are already infested  LOL ROTF

George.

What do you mean a growth is a sin?!!  I get growths all over my body from bad sanitation.  And we know that the "cleanliness is next to Godliness" is a false scripture, so you can't use that to justify your hatred for fungus ridden growths.  I mean, we don't have to bathe to be good with God, do we?  I am appalled that people on this forum have the audacity to criticize those of us that are comfortable with big, ugly, festering growths on our body, just because we don't try to keep our living space clean and free of disgusting toxins.

[WhoAmI]

Many quote all the same scriptures in defense of their belief that they are following the Gospel of Christ.

Jeff,

Quoting scriptures compared to having spiritual discernment to understand them is like night and day. It is not the same.

Paul is proof that knowing the scriptures doesn't amount to anything.

I believe you mean 'Saul' right? Saul was not converted, Paul was. His conversion was a type of putting off the old man and being spiritually converted [Eph. 4:22-23]

Because the way you understand the scriptures seems to point to where you are at in your walk away from Egypt and on to the Promise Land. How many of us when we were in Babylon knew the scriptures and could quote and defend our position with the scriptures.

What we all thought was defense of the scriptures was exposed to be contradictions which Ray has pointed out again and again. That's the main purpose of bible-truths.com.

So the idea that we base it on the scriptures does not work because with blurred eyes you make up what you want all along using the scriptures.

Again:
2 Tim 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

People make up all kinds of doctrine all over the world...but we don't need to 'make up' any doctrine as we already have one: the doctrine of Christ which was given to him by the Father [John 7:16-17]. Any spiritual growth will be in agreement with this doctrine. If it is not, it is not of God.

Could the scriptures be a god and lead us astray with this mode of thought?

Jeff

Jesus is called the Word of God. Jesus is not a 'god' he is GOD. When you DON'T look to Christ the Word of God you will be lead astray. Why would you even want to not rely on the very words that our Lord and Savior has spoken? I really am having a hard time understanding your point on this Jeff. It's like you're implying why do we use the scriptures for our foundation. If not the Word of God, what would we rely on? Jesus stated that He was the truth...when you have truth, why settle for anything else?


Marques

Your response reminds me of a type of a religious rebuttal. My discussion is not some secret attack against Ray, bible-truths or Jesus or the scriptures.
But if I was to question Ray, bible-truths or Jesus or the scriptures then so be it, but it never means I am questioning them so say, but my understanding of them. And I would hope you would be aware that Ray is much more a thinker than most of those who come preaching. It is this use of this God given ability that has helped him expose the many contradictions. And this is what I do as well. And one last thing, all I have is words to communicate and manipulation of them to represent a bias interpretation of what I am going after is not of my doing. This again is clear proof how the mentally of man gets interjected in words, and yes we do this with the scriptures as well. I can speak and I will speak it with words, but if they do not fit a religious understanding set pattern it does not mean it is wrong. I can speak truth without quoting someone else who lived a long time before me. Again be aware of how much Ray writes his papers with his own words to express the same ideas expressed maybe in a few quotes of scriptures.

Jeff

[Robin]

When I still believed in the teachings of the church I realized that deceived people don't know they are deceived. I started thinking of all the people who were sure they knew the truth and each had a different truth. I thought I could be one of those people too although I didn't think I was at the time. I prayed that God would show me if I was deceived and he did. I started learning truth.

A few years later I was watching Star Trek and Will Riker kept waking up in different realities and didn't know which one was real. God showed me that I can't trust myself. I am not able to keep myself from deception. Deceived people don't know they are deceived. I can only put my total trust in him to keep me from being deceived and humble myself before him. I still to this day ask him to show me if I am decieved and ask him to keep me from deception. It is all in his hands and he is in control. It was very scary to have that rug of self reliance pulled out from under me. When I found Bible-truths I found that I was still deceived about many things. I feel comfortable now putting it in God's hands and trusting him to open my eyes.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

[mharrell08]

When I still believed in the teachings of the church I realized that deceived people don't know they are deceived. I started thinking of all the people who were sure they knew the truth and each had a different truth. I thought I could be one of those people too although I didn't think I was at the time. I prayed that God would show me if I was deceived and he did. I started learning truth.

A few years later I was watching Star Trek and Will Riker kept waking up in different realities and didn't know which one was real. God showed me that I can't trust myself. I am not able to keep myself from deception. Deceived people don't know they are deceived. I can only put my total trust in him to keep me from being deceived and humble myself before him. I still to this day ask him to show me if I am decieved and ask him to keep me from deception. It is all in his hands and he is in control. It was very scary to have that rug of self reliance pulled out from under me. When I found Bible-truths I found that I was still deceived about many things. I feel comfortable now putting it in God's hands and trusting him to open my eyes.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

This is a great comment M.G.

[mharrell08]

Your response reminds me of a type of a religious rebuttal. My discussion is not some secret attack against Ray, bible-truths or Jesus or the scriptures.
But if I was to question Ray, bible-truths or Jesus or the scriptures then so be it, but it never means I am questioning them so say, but my understanding of them. And I would hope you would be aware that Ray is much more a thinker than most of those who come preaching. It is this use of this God given ability that has helped him expose the many contradictions. And this is what I do as well. And one last thing, all I have is words to communicate and manipulation of them to represent a bias interpretation of what I am going after is not of my doing. This again is clear proof how the mentally of man gets interjected in words, and yes we do this with the scriptures as well. I can speak and I will speak it with words, but if they do not fit a religious understanding set pattern it does not mean it is wrong. I can speak truth without quoting someone else who lived a long time before me. Again be aware of how much Ray writes his papers with his own words to express the same ideas expressed maybe in a few quotes of scriptures.

Jeff

Hello Jeff,

I don't understand where you continue to take this discussion. George, Lin, Dave, Kat & Brenda all stated they understood where you were coming from but also that ultimately they relied on the Word of God for truth in matters. Why you choose to continue to harp at me, the one person who DOESN'T UNDERSTAND what you mean, is bewildering.

1. You began this thread asking what we relied on to gauge our spiritual growth. George and I stated the Word of God.

2. Your next comment, is how if one's beliefs are false then they can't rely on scripture since they are spiritually blind. I understand that, but you asked members here who have eyes to see and ears to hear. We ultimately rely on the scriptures...even with Ray's teachings.

3. This last comment is all over the place. 'A religious rebuttal'? Which quote? Who ever said you were making a sneaky attack? When has anyone said that your words need to fit a 'religious understanding set pattern'? If you make accusations, where are the quotes???!!!

But to stick to the main subject of this thread, we ultimately rely on the Word of God to establish any spiritual truths/growth. How do we do that? By comparing spiritual to spiritual for a SPIRITUAL MATCH. Ray goes over this and other spiritual truths in great detail in this paper: http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

Also, if you, personally, feel that God is molding you and giving you more understanding and you want to share, go ahead. If it is of God, it will NOT contradict the scriptures. If it is of God, more than enough members here will give an amen. Don't think that the members here are rigid when it comes to new spiritual understandings. But do take heed if they show that scripturally this new understanding is not of God. Even if you don't agree, seek God and he will lift you up and show you the truth.


Thanks,

Marques

[aqrinc]

Jeff, Marques, All

Here is the best answers i have found so far Scripturally speaking. I am diligently seeking for ever
clearer understanding.

Mat_26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Joh_5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

George.

[aqrinc]

Here is another reason for verifying any Revelation with Scripture.

Rom_15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we
through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

George.

[mharrell08]

Jeff, Marques, All

Here is the best answers i have found so far Scripturally speaking. I am diligently seeking for ever
clearer understanding.

Mat_26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Joh_5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

George.

Here is another reason for verifying any Revelation with Scripture.

Rom_15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we
through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

George.

Amen! 


Marques

[Robin]

Joh_5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

I love that verse.

Thank you George

[Ninny]

Remember, Jeff the pharisees objected to Jesus' teachings because of their legalism. They kept the letter of the law. They were not willing to accept Jesus as the Messiah because that would have released people from the letter of the law. It was a completely new way of thinking. Freedom from the law?

Do you remember when the Soviet Union dissolved (or whatever you call it)? many Russian people came to the US, but many of them went back because they didn't know how to deal with freedom! I have always thought of it in that way, people would rather remain in darkness than to accept the freedom of the light. If you look at the way the pharisees reacted to Jesus I guess it's a reflection of our human condition. We question whatever takes us out of our comfort zone.

Sometimes it takes us a long time to accept new light or whatever you want to call it because we are comfortable living the way we always have. It's a hard call to step out in faith and follow where you think God is leading you. If God is in control of your life he will lead you into all truth--a little at a time!

I speak these things from experience, God has led me in many different directions and each path ended in the place I was supposed to be at the time! I have learned so many things and mostly I have learned that not everything is truth! Some truth mixed with error, but as the error is burned away the truth shines forth brightly! You take that truth and you move on to the next place where God sends you always learning always willing to take the path set out by God! This may not answer your question at all but it is just the way I have learned to deal with things that are new ideas to me. Searching Scripture and long hours of prayer. That's it!
Kathy