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Author Topic: John 17:12  (Read 5228 times)

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winner08

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John 17:12
« on: October 25, 2008, 03:10:17 AM »

John17:12 While I was with them in the world I kept them in thy Name, Those that thou gavest Me I have kept and none of them lost, but the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Who is the son of perdition?
What the the word lost means is this scripture?
where is the other scripture that predicts this scripture? (that the scripture might be fulfilled).
Is lost death, dead in the grave or spiritually dead? what am I missing?

Darren
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aqrinc

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Re: John 17:12
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2008, 03:29:33 AM »

Darren,

Here is the match for son of perdition, losing the old man of sin may be what (lost) means here.

John 17:12:
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept,
and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

II Thessalonians 2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

George.
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ericsteven

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Re: John 17:12
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2008, 06:36:59 AM »

Hi Darren,

Who is the son of perdition?

I think in this particular instance, Jesus is speaking directly of Judas Iscariot.

Quote
where is the other scripture that predicts this scripture? (that the scripture might be fulfilled).

Psalms 41:3     Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

How do we know this is the Scripture that Jesus speaks of?  He refers to it Himself in John 13.

John 13:18   I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

And of course, Judas is the one to whom Jesus gave the bread after dipping it in the sauce at the last supper.

John 13:26ff     Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it." And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.  Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."  But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him.

Quote
What the the word lost means is this scripture?

The Greek word 'lost' in this Scripture is apollymi.  Its various meanings are to perish, to be lost, ruined, or destroyed.

It can actually refer to either a physical state or spiritual state or even both, depending on the context of the verse in which the word is used.

For example, in John 6, Jesus instructs the disciples to gather up the leftovers of the bread and fishes so that none would go to waste. i.e. physically lost

John 6:12      When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost (apollymi).

In Matt 10, Jesus tells the disciples to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 

Matt 10:6     But go rather to the lost (apollymi) sheep of the house of Israel.

The disciples aren't going to physically lost people to preach the gospel (otherwise how would they know where to find them, and if Jesus had told them where these physically lost people were, then they wouldn't be physically lost, now would they? :D), but to those who are spiriually lost.

In Luke 15, Jesus tells a parable of the lost sheep.  In this instance, apollymi is used both in a physical sense to describe a physical sheep that is lost, but that sheep represents someone who is spiritually lost that Jesus says He will find and save.

Luke 15:4     What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost (apollymi), until he find it?

Luke 19:10     For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost (apollymi).

Quote
Is lost death, dead in the grave or spiritually dead? what am I missing?

In this instance of John 17:12, since Jesus is referring to the specific fulfillment of Psalm 41:9, then the term ‘lost’ could be defined as the condition that comes upon someone who lifts up their heel against Jesus.  And, of course, if one lifts up his heel against Jesus, he also lifts it up against the Father, therefore rendering him spiritually lost. 

Another clue that this is speaking of Judas being spiritually lost and not physically lost is the fact that John 17:12 is spoken by Jesus before the actual betrayal in the garden, and therefore before Judas' physical death by hanging.  So Judas was at that moment already ‘lost’ even before Jesus was taken captive.

But then, of course, we know he also became physically lost or destroyed when he hung himself and then fell and burst open, spilling his bowels.

Does that help?

Eric
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Beloved

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Re: John 17:12
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2008, 06:56:14 AM »

Good answer Eric   ;D    Nothing that I will add

beloved
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Rene

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Re: John 17:12
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2008, 10:10:50 AM »

John17:12 While I was with them in the world I kept them in thy Name, Those that thou gavest Me I have kept and none of them lost, but the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Who is the son of perdition?
What the the word lost means is this scripture?
where is the other scripture that predicts this scripture? (that the scripture might be fulfilled).
Is lost death, dead in the grave or spiritually dead? what am I missing?

Darren


Darren,

Here is an excerpt from the LOF series, Part 14, "The Beast Within".  After studying this paper, you should have a clearer understanding of this spiritual truth.

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html

AFTER WE FALL AWAY

And what does Paul tell us will be revealed AFTER we fall away?

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION" (II Thes. 2:3).

The beast, the man of sin, and the son of perdition are all one and the same:

"BEASTS": We have seen from God’s word that God calls mankind "beasts"—Psalm 49:12 & 20; Titus 1:12-13; II Pet. 2:12; Psalm 73:22; Jude 10; & Ecc. 3:18). There is not just one prophetic beast OUT THERE, somewhere. We are ALL beasts—within!

"MAN OF SIN": This phrase can be translated: "lawless one" or "man of lawlessness," as numerous translations do. But it can also be sin. Are we to believe that there is only ONE "man of sin?" or only ONE "man of lawlessness?"

"For ALL [all mankind] have sinned, and come [Greek: ‘fall’] short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

"MANY [not few] will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord... And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity [margin: ‘lawlessness’]" (Matt. 7:22a & 23).

"But the scripture has concluded ALL UNDER SIN…" (Gal. 3:22).

"Man of sin" is by no means the sole description of some one man that appears at the end of the age before the return of Christ.
"SON OF PERDITION": This phrase should really be "son of destruction." Again, my King James has "son of destruction" in its margin. Is this speaking of just ONE person at the end of the age who will be called "son of perdition?" Hardly. Jesus called Judas "the son of perdition [destruction]" in John 17:12. So maybe there are only two people who are ever given this designation? ‘Fraid not. Notice what Peter says:
"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition [destruction] of UNGODLY men" (II Pet. 3:7).


Darren,

I suggest you read the rest of this paper.

René
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