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Author Topic: Saints  (Read 15182 times)

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tinknocker

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Re: Saints
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2008, 03:38:40 AM »

Since we're talking about saints chew on this verse for awhile;

Revelation 13:7-8
And he was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. He was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. 8  All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

I think saints are the called. The chosen/elect come out of this group.

Blessings
tinknocker
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mharrell08

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Re: Saints
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2008, 09:28:47 AM »

Since we're talking about saints chew on this verse for awhile;

Revelation 13:7-8
And he was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. He was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. 8  All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

I think saints are the called. The chosen/elect come out of this group.

Blessings
tinknocker



"The saints shall judge the world" 1 Cor 6:2

The called are not going to judge the called. Look at the next verse: whose names are NOT WRITTEN from the foundation of the world in the book of the life of the lamb was slaughtered. Obviously, these are those who did not overcome. Nor does Rev 13:7 interpet itself [2 Pet 1:20]


John 8:31

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


Notice, IF they continue in His word, they are disciples. Were they disciples this day that Christ spoke it? Of course, that's why He said 'continue'. You can only 'continue' if you have started. Now, did all these same believing Jews continue? Most likely not, as they all chanted 'Crucify him!' [John 19:15].

All this goes for US now. If we 'continue' in the faith, we are his disciples/saints/elect/etc. If we do not, then NO we are not. How can one be a saint if one does not 'continue' in His Word? But who knows who will finish the race?

2 Tim 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

We ALL are saints as we abide in Christ and Christ abides in us...but if we do not 'continue' to abide in Christ then no we will not be His disciples/saints/elect and we will perish/destroyed/lost. That is why Paul could address the congregation as 'saints' because the were on the path even with their carnal flaws. But only God knows who will stay the path as it is HE who ordained the chosen in the first place.


Whew...  :D


Marques


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Rene

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Re: Saints
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2008, 09:53:57 AM »

To all of you who are interested in this topic, now would be a good time to reread and study the following installment from the Lake of Fire series:

LOF series Pt. 13    WHO IS THE BEAST?

Here is a small excerpt from this paper:

                                         WHO ARE THE SAINTS?

If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?
 
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).

So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.


René


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mharrell08

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Re: Saints
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2008, 10:14:52 AM »

Thank you Rene; Ray really makes it simple. :-)


Marques
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Samson

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Re: Saints
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2008, 11:10:00 AM »

Wow,

So Paul only literally called them saints, but didn't mean it.  Fine, whatever.  In love I consider all believers saints, You can call them whatever you want.

sigh


Why do you insist on implying negative connotations that have no merit? If there was one comment that deserved this slander, please point it out. This is not that complicated:

You are a 'saint' if God has called and chosen you and you remain faithful to the end. If you are not called and chosen and do not endure to the end, you are not.

No one knows who will be faithful and overcome to the very end. But as they are in the faith now, they are called saints. But if they do not endure to the end and turn away from the truth, then they obviously are not saints.

I can understand everyone not understanding everything. That's fine; as we are all striving for the truth. But the over the top attitude is not edifying in the least. Are we really having a blowout over the definition of the word 'saints'? I mean come on, are we really this carnal? It's not that serious...


Marques

               Marques point that " If they do not endure to the end and they turn away from the truth, they obviously are not Saints(Holy Ones-Samsons preference from hagioi-gk) hits the nail on the head."

                                            Endurance to the end of ones life is required, the Saints or Holy Ones are chosen
                                            out of the many called, so until one endures to the end, they are only prospective
                                            " Saints" until then.


                                         Kind Regards, Samson.
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ScarletWren

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Re: Saints
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2008, 01:02:38 PM »

I'm still reading, I just guess I'll keep my opinions to myself for the most part.   ;D
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aqrinc

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Re: Saints
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2008, 02:12:01 PM »

Hi SW,

No reason to become an introvert, we are all here because somehow (miraculously) we were shown some
more Light. ScarletWren, please keep asking even if the answer sometimes does not confirm your current
thought. It is only by diligent study and Prayer that we can both learn and then teach The Good News Of
The Gospel when called upon to do so. It would be nice if everyone always used the most understanding
and gentle tone to converse; however we are still all learning to be Just and Saintly (Holy). That comes with
practice and immersion in The Word (Baptism) and learning to Be Like Christ (Circumcision Without Hands).

We will all arrive at that point in our own order; so please do not lose patience or zeal for the Word and
Fellowship with like minded (even if not like in speech and conduct on line) people. Remember the Body Of
Christ is made up of different parts just like any other; the difference is that In Christ Jesus we are Made
Holy.

This is a bit longwinded for me, usually i just find the Scripture to say what needs to be said. Today i was
urged to write to you with application to us all so please do not be silent out of either anger or fear of
challenge to your current understanding.

For By Grace are ye Saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves, It is The Gift Of God; lest any should Boast.

Now for some Scripture:

Proverbs 16:23:
The heart of the wise teaches his mouth, and adds learning to his lips.

Proverbs 9:9:
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

Acts 26:24:
And as he thus spoke for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, you are beside yourself; much learning
does make you mad.

Romans 15:4:
For whatever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort
of the scriptures might have hope. 

Romans 15:5:
Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be like minded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

II Corinthians 6:4:
But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

Love and Patience,

george.


I'm still reading, I just guess I'll keep my opinions to myself for the most part.   ;D

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Beloved

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Re: Saints
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2008, 07:19:42 PM »

I have looked at the word saint in the scriptures The word Hagios is also used in conjection with the "Holy" Spirit.

I agree that this sentance in Ephesians has a conjunctive "and" but I do not see two groups being addressed but rather one, saints that are aloo faithful....

Eph 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by [the] will of God, to the holy ones [or, saints, and throughout epistle], the [ones] being in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus:

I see what Ray has written but is it possible that many of the church fathers in babylon saw themselves as saints and translated it that way. We are reading translations... :-\

The called and the chosen have both been called to Jesus, but I do not see how those in babylon can be called "holy" , except by their being called.

I was able to find a LXX with greek strongs and see that saints was used for holy in some places and this was translated saints, but in other places where saints is translated in the OT, the other words are used that I defined in my above.

It is going to take me time to put this together, There are a lot of verses to pull and compare. I want to see some witnessing scripure on this word.

I often find that terms and words are bandied in this world about without concern for a tight definition. I also believe that language in itself causes words to have multiple meanings.

I often find double entendre in scriture now, where the words are there but the person reading them sees something that is not intended.  Here at BT we are all aware of things that Ray has shown us like....all, eternity forever and ever....but I think there may be more.

Look whate a little comma and belief in heaven when you die, does to the understanding of this verse

Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luk 23:43  "I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."

Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt  be with me in paradise.

Luk 23:43    And Jesus said to him, "Positively, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.

Luk 23:43 And he said unto him-Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise.



beloved
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EKnight

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Re: Saints
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2008, 09:15:07 PM »

George,

I hope Scarletwren appreciates your sincerity.  I know I do.

Very well said George.

Eileen
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aqrinc

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Re: Saints
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2008, 09:30:42 PM »

Beloved,

This has been my biggest contention, words mean things so definition of words is of extreme
importance when speaking or translating. Especially when we read that in the latter times
even the meaning of words will be changed to deceive the world.

Yes there is Scripture to back this up but i have to wait until i get home to search it out or
let the fun begin and my Sisters and Brothers can go to work now.

george.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 09:37:16 PM by aqr »
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Beloved

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Re: Saints
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2008, 09:53:03 PM »

On a lighter note  The Day after halloween is ALL Saints Day  November 1st

ALL Saints day...it is a babylonean feast that was set up by early roman church.

I found this interesting of what people think a saint is:

In Roman Catholicism, a person of great spirituality who has died, is responsible for at least three miracles, and who has been elevated to the sainthood by the church.

In Protestantism, a saint is one of the ancient leaders of the church, like St. Peter and St. Paul.

In Evangelical Christianity, all saved Christians are saints

Three 'stupid' definitions...since none are saved but are being saved

...is Saint a collective term for those being saved....then that would have to include the unbelievers too.  Hagios...Hagios  from hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Somehow I think that paul was using it with  different meaning in mind...but then again from God's perspective this too could be true.   ;D 


beloved
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Fester

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Re: Saints
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2008, 11:55:59 PM »

Oh when the saints go marching in
When the saints go marching in
Oh lord I want to be in that number
When the saints go marching in
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"Christianity began as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. When it went to Athens, it became a philosophy. When it went to Rome, it became an organization. When it went to Europe, it became a culture. When it came to America, it became a business."

aqrinc

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Re: Saints
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2008, 02:19:31 AM »

Fester,

I have never yet seen a marching pancake; does it roll or shuffle on the march ???.

Yes when the Saints go marching in, the real job that we are training for starts ;D.

george.
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digitalwise

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Re: Saints
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2008, 03:10:09 AM »

1Co 1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1. Already "sanctified in Christ".
2. "Corinth" - a carnal church
3. "Called to be saints" - Equality to be a saint - either your one or your not ................not of who is holier or sees more truth or earns it.
4. "all that in every place" - note inclusion not EXCLUSION
4. ALL those [regardless] "THAT CALL the name Jesus Christ our Lord"
5. "both theirs and ours"

Exclusion or inclusion? Saints that are called and qualified by man made denominations are of a party spirit.

digitalwise
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Heidi

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Re: Saints
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2008, 07:49:00 AM »

Digitalwise....Ray always says "look at the words" and when I read your post at first glance I read the verse and then a second time the "church of God" stood out to me.  This is referring to the believers of the truth and not the temples and synagogues.....so unto those that are believers in the truth (that God will save all) they are called saints, both CLNT and YNG translations leave out "to be"....they are just called.....few are called, many are chosen.

Your translation: 1Co 1:2  Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Concordant Literal New Testament 1 Cor 1:2 "to the ecclesia of God which is in Corinth, hallowed in Christ Jesus, called saints, together with all in every place who are invoking the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:"

Young's Literal translation: "to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place -- both theirs and ours:"
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digitalwise

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Re: Saints
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2008, 09:24:49 AM »

Dear Heidi

Church of God is a GENERIC term for an assembly of people in Christ's name - that is all.

Look at the co-concordant translation:

Assembly is a description of many meeting together not a qualification in being a saint.

hallowed [sanctified] in Christ Jesus, called saints, together with all in every place who are invoking the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:"

It is noted that Armstrongism [of that movement I was once a part] - described the Church of God as their only name.

What is then a legitimate Assembly of God then?

I would have thought those CALLING or invoking the Name of Jesus along with this reference of OTHER assemblies are believers hence saints.

Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The concordant seems to say more emphatic that we are saints ALREADY provided the condition of Christ's santification - past tense is met as the condition. - to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints,

Who then are beloved of God?

Rom 1:7  To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do we have to be in Rome to be beloved of God or called saints?

Likewise the church or "ecclesia of God" phrase - the qualification to a saint is not on the phrase "church"  but rather the action of Christ's grace on the individual believer - that is the real determinate of whether you are a saint or not.   Thus sanctified by the Christ is real cause in being a saint not the assembly.

digitalwise


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mharrell08

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Re: Saints
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2008, 10:29:29 AM »

2 Great bible studies by Ray:

'How hard is Getting Saved' [http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html]

and

'Can We lose God's spirit and Eonian life' [http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html]


I think can give further insight on this issue. Remember, 'The sum of thy Word is true' Ps 119:160 CLV. Here's a great analogy from Ray's March 2008 bible study:

What good does it do when a police officer stops you for speeding and you start outlining to him all the time, that you didn’t speed?  You say, ‘officer I drove this road yesterday twice and I did not speed.  I took my wife to the doctor and I did not speed. I went down town and I didn’t speed.  I went out on the highway and went over to Pensacola and I didn’t speed.’  I mean how much weight is that going to carry?
The officer says, ‘ but now you are speedingThat’s good that you didn’t speed then, but that will not allow you to start speeding now.’
How simple is that.  Can a child understand that?  If you punish a child because he was bad and he says, ‘but mommy I was good yesterday and I was good the day before.’  She says, ‘well that’s good, that’s admiral, but you’ve got to be good today too.’  How simple is that.
Well a lot of these people can’t understand it.  I’m not poking fun at them, I mean they sincerely can’t, because no one has ever taught them these things.



Hope this helps those who need more understanding,

Marques
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ScarletWren

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Re: Saints
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2008, 12:01:40 PM »

Do we have to be in Rome to be beloved of God or called saints?

Likewise the church or "ecclesia of God" phrase - the qualification to a saint is not on the phrase "church"  but rather the action of Christ's grace on the individual believer - that is the real determinate of whether you are a saint or not.   Thus sanctified by the Christ is real cause in being a saint not the assembly.

digitalwise


Exactly!!
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mharrell08

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Re: Saints
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2008, 01:03:44 PM »

Truly those who overcome are saints, but does that mean the rest of the assembly are not called saints? 

Hello,

I don't mean to single out Scarlet, but I wanted to really get to the heart of the matter regarding this subject. I work in IT so it's kind of my nature to get to the root of an issue.

This is why earlier I referenced Ray's bible study on 'Can We lose God's spirit and Eonian life'. The first half of Scarlet's statement is absolutely true. Those who overcome are the elect/saints/disciples/'him who overcomes'/etc. They shall, with Christ, judge the world [1 Cor. 6:2]

The second half, the question of are the rest of the assembly called saints, is if they do not overcome, then NO they are not saints. At the time of Paul's letter, these believers were abiding in the truth as most members of this forum are. But we all as well as those in Paul's time, has to endure to the end. If we or any of those back then fell away, then we are no longer saints and only judgment awaits us at the resurrection.

So yes, YOU CAN LOSE God's spirit and eonian life. But only God knows that are His and rarely will you even know if one has fallen away from the truth unless they blatantly speak heresy and contradictions.

Again, look at the words of our Lord and Saviour:

John 8:31

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


These Jews, who believed, were 'His disciples indeed' IF they continued. At the moment Christ made this statement, these Jews were His disciples. But they had to continue! Were they disciples when they were yelling with the crowd, 'Crucify him!' [John 19:15]. Of course not...that's why 'the SUM of thy Word is true'.

Then said Jesus to those Jews [We are now Jews (Rom. 2:29)] which believed on Him [do we not all believe?], IF ye continue in my Word [it's a process, see?] THEN are ye my disciples [disciples/elect/saints/'him who overcomes'/etc.]indeed;

We are all on the path, like the congregations that Paul spoke to, but we must continue. The 'many are called' are NOT ON THE PATH. They have chosen the road to destruction. [Matt. 7:13]


Marques
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Rene

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Re: Saints
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2008, 01:15:55 PM »

This topic has run it's course, which is why I am locking it.

Thanks.

René
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