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Author Topic: Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"  (Read 17874 times)

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Origen II

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« on: May 25, 2006, 05:10:26 AM »

I've been debating with a Messianic Jew for a little bit and he insist that we must keep the Law.

The thing is, I know scripture states otherwise.

Here's my confusion, though:

If the Mosiac Law (including 10 Commandments) have truly been abolished...then why must we still follow such rules as no homosexuality (since this is part of the Mosaic Law), and other such things?
 
While I understand that many of the Laws are types and shadows of Christ, there are those that seem connected to the 10 Commandments, and if we still follow these precepts...aren't we still following the Law?

Just wondering. And I read Mikes paper on the Law, but it still didn't answer these questions.

How can we truly say we are no longer under the Law if we still think it bad to commit things that were considered the Mosaic Law? Do you see what I'm saying?
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Andrew

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2006, 06:09:57 AM »

Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Rom 13:10  Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



HANG, v.i. To be suspended; to be sustained by something above, so as to swing or be movable below.

4. To be supported by something raised above the ground; as a hanging garden on the top of a house.

5. To depend; to rest on something for support. This question hangs on a single point.

(Websters 1828 Dictionary)
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eutychus

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Re: Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2006, 09:03:55 AM »

Quote from: Origen II
I've been debating with a Messianic Jew for a little bit and he insist that we must keep the Law.

The thing is, I know scripture states otherwise.

Here's my confusion, though:

If the Mosiac Law (including 10 Commandments) have truly been abolished...then why must we still follow such rules as no homosexuality (since this is part of the Mosaic Law), and other such things?
 
While I understand that many of the Laws are types and shadows of Christ, there are those that seem connected to the 10 Commandments, and if we still follow these precepts...aren't we still following the Law?

Just wondering. And I read Mikes paper on the Law, but it still didn't answer these questions.

How can we truly say we are no longer under the Law if we still think it bad to commit things that were considered the Mosaic Law? Do you see what I'm saying?





the law has not been abolished, it will remain for it is for  to bring people to Christ.


Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

after which you are not "under" the law.


Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

2nd witness

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


once the commandment of LOVE comes it takes care of the physical laws.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 if you  walk in LOVE the physical law really are a moot point.

 i spent 15 yrs as a beleiver trying to obey physicall law and i was miserable, tortured in the presence of the lamb if you would.

 once the commandment of LOVE came and i was given truth(CHRIST)

 thats is truley when deliverance came and i walk in newness of life
 CHRIST produceing the fruits of the spirit inj and through me, hence
 i cannot boast in me but HIM.

 obeying the physical law in the flesh always produces self boasting and pride :wink:


 hope this helps, didnt want to qoute bunches of scripture

 just give you mine.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


 love
euty/chuck
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Origen II

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2006, 01:13:02 PM »

Okay...I understand.

But still, if we are no longer to obey the Law of the flesh, why do we stop eating certain foods and viewing special Holy Days, but we still keep other parts of the physical law like homosexuality?


I'm just saying that I can't find anywhere where the ENTIRE Law is destroyed...nor can I find anywhere where the Food Laws are seperate from the sex Laws.
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shibboleth

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2006, 01:34:59 PM »

You have asked good questions, Origen. We do know that the law is for the lawless and if you are a sinner then you need the law.

When you are teaching your little children right from wrong, the law comes into force. Children should be taught not to steal, lie, tattle tale, or to be selfish. Honoring their mother and father teaches them to have respect for authority. But, little children are lawless. They are not capable of doing right or wrong without someone to guide them, The 10 commandments can be thought of as a protection for society. We know sexual relationships outside of marriage can cause unwanted babies and dideases. There are other consequences for sex sins, but those are 2 that come to mind.

If we all had the love of God in our heart the other commandments wouldn't be necessary. We wouldn't think of doing anything to hurt god or our fellow man.

the problem is with churches that try to force the 10 commands on thir congregation. They are usually the most lawless of all people, because you can't keep the law in the flesh. That is the whole purpose of law; iit shows us how weak we really are.
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eutychus

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2006, 01:56:07 PM »

Quote from: Origen II
Okay...I understand.

But still, if we are no longer to obey the Law of the flesh, why do we stop eating certain foods and viewing special Holy Days, but we still keep other parts of the physical law like homosexuality?


I'm just saying that I can't find anywhere where the ENTIRE Law is destroyed...nor can I find anywhere where the Food Laws are seperate from the sex Laws.



huh?  


AGAIN:
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers



 the desires of the flesh just arnt  sexual sins and eating of foods.

do you know that some desire to obey the whole law???


  can two gay people live and love each other but yet refrain from
sexual acts??

 homosexuality is no different than any othere sexual perversion.

 sex was created for man and women and the marriage bed undefield.


 how is the command of LOVE fullfilled  while commiting sexual perversion and causing another one to sin???????


i love shrimp every now and then, how would the law of love be fullfilled if
i invited someone who i knew didnt eat shrimp or meat and i served it to them????

 chuck
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Origen II

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2006, 04:07:33 PM »

Let me explain further:


The Messianic Jew I'm debating with states that we are obviously still abiding to certain laws if we find homosexuality as a sin, though we rid ourselves of other things like food laws, etc.

He basically is saying that not going with the food laws and holy days is just as much a sin as performing homosexual acts, because all the Law goes against sin (even the food laws).

So how can Christians say that the Law is "abolished" when we still abide to certain parts of the Law and not others. That was his point.


My problem is that I cannot find where homosexuality is different from the food laws within the OT. I also cannot understand how the "law" is only the 10 Commandments and not the other 603 Laws, if this is the case. While I understand that Paul made example about the 10 Commandments when he spoke of the "law", where is there a difference between the Law of Moses and the 10 Commandments expressed in the OT?


It just seems funny to me because we still do actually follow some of the written code still (like no homosexuality), yet we disregard everything else. So if homosexuality is still a sin that falls under "adultrey", then what seperates that from the food laws etc.? There is no distinction made within the New or Old Testaments (as I have read).

This is the problem.


P.S.: I am not advocating homosexuality, just making an example.
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Steve Crook

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2006, 04:49:48 PM »

Please re-read the posts made because you obviously are over-looking what has already been stated.

The "bar" has been raised, NOT ABOLISHED. It has been fulfilled.

Commiting physical adultery is SIN as well as SPIRITUAL adultery. Both are SIN. However, if you are following spiritual law then are also following physical law. Physical homosexuality is a SIN under the Mosaic Law. Physical homosexuality is SIN under the spiritual law.

It is SIN, period. If it is a "spiritual law", it is ALSO a Mosaic Law but redefined to include the spiritual....which is MORE REAL, and NOT THE SHADOW. If physical adultery is SIN under the Mosaic Law, then spiritual adultery is SIN under God's Law.

It is not abolished, it is raised to a spiritual truth. Thinking IT is DOING IT.

Under the Mosaic Law you can think about it all you want, but acting on it was a crime. Now, thinking it is THE crime, and acting on it is simply just the end result. Either way, you are still guilty ....even WITHOUT the physical act.

When Eve lusted after the apple according to her flesh and eyes, and she also hadthe pride of life knowing it would give her the knowledge of good and even, SHE HAD ALREADY DONE THE DEED and WAS GUILTY. She has already spiritually eaten the apple.

Basically, this all has already been stated, but if you are conversating with someone who has not been given eyes and ears to see this, then you are battling against our Father himself..

I am sorry if none of this post helps you...
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Origen II

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2006, 05:17:08 PM »

Quote from: Steve Crook
Please re-read the posts made because you obviously are over-looking what has already been stated.

The "bar" has been raised, NOT ABOLISHED. It has been fulfilled.

Commiting physical adultery is SIN as well as SPIRITUAL adultery. Both are SIN. However, if you are following spiritual law then are also following physical law. Physical homosexuality is a SIN under the Mosaic Law. Physical homosexuality is SIN under the spiritual law.

It is SIN, period. If it is a "spiritual law", it is ALSO a Mosaic Law but redefined to include the spiritual....which is MORE REAL, and NOT THE SHADOW. If physical adultery is SIN under the Mosaic Law, then spiritual adultery is SIN under God's Law.

It is not abolished, it is raised to a spiritual truth. Thinking IT is DOING IT.

Under the Mosaic Law you can think about it all you want, but acting on it was a crime. Now, thinking it is THE crime, and acting on it is simply just the end result. Either way, you are still guilty ....even WITHOUT the physical act.

When Eve lusted after the apple according to her flesh and eyes, and she also hadthe pride of life knowing it would give her the knowledge of good and even, SHE HAD ALREADY DONE THE DEED and WAS GUILTY. She has already spiritually eaten the apple.

Basically, this all has already been stated, but if you are conversating with someone who has not been given eyes and ears to see this, then you are battling against our Father himself..

I am sorry if none of this post helps you...


The thing is that these post are helping me understand the nature of sex as a sin, but no one has yet pointed out why it isn't a sin to eat certain foods.

My real dilema is the food laws etc. What makes not eating certain foods any less a sin than homosexuality?
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love_magnified

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2006, 05:23:10 PM »

The food laws represented a separation of the Elect, itself represented by the physical Jews. Remember Peter's vision of the sheet and the animals that he could eat? That represented the cleansing of the forbidden meats (representing Gentiles) who would enter into the royal priesthood according to spirit. So the food laws are a type and shadow. The righteousness of the Law represented the righteousness in spirit that we would be given so that we could fulfill Christ's higher law. That is why those who walk by Spirit respect their mothers and fathers, and love God with all their might, and do not take his name in vain. This is not because Moses says so, but because Jesus Christ is within us.
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Becky

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2006, 05:23:49 PM »

Quote from: Origen II
Quote from: Steve Crook
Please re-read the posts made because you obviously are over-looking what has already been stated.

The "bar" has been raised, NOT ABOLISHED. It has been fulfilled.

Commiting physical adultery is SIN as well as SPIRITUAL adultery. Both are SIN. However, if you are following spiritual law then are also following physical law. Physical homosexuality is a SIN under the Mosaic Law. Physical homosexuality is SIN under the spiritual law.

It is SIN, period. If it is a "spiritual law", it is ALSO a Mosaic Law but redefined to include the spiritual....which is MORE REAL, and NOT THE SHADOW. If physical adultery is SIN under the Mosaic Law, then spiritual adultery is SIN under God's Law.

It is not abolished, it is raised to a spiritual truth. Thinking IT is DOING IT.

Under the Mosaic Law you can think about it all you want, but acting on it was a crime. Now, thinking it is THE crime, and acting on it is simply just the end result. Either way, you are still guilty ....even WITHOUT the physical act.

When Eve lusted after the apple according to her flesh and eyes, and she also hadthe pride of life knowing it would give her the knowledge of good and even, SHE HAD ALREADY DONE THE DEED and WAS GUILTY. She has already spiritually eaten the apple.

Basically, this all has already been stated, but if you are conversating with someone who has not been given eyes and ears to see this, then you are battling against our Father himself..

I am sorry if none of this post helps you...


The thing is that these post are helping me understand the nature of sex as a sin, but no one has yet pointed out why it isn't a sin to eat certain foods.

My real dilema is the food laws etc. What makes not eating certain foods any less a sin than homosexuality?


That's a good question.... one that I am going to look at a little closer... i see what you're asking... i don't know the answer either
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chrissiela

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2006, 05:36:35 PM »

The Law is not abolished for those who are still 'under' it, but isn't it abolished for those who have come to Christ?

Once we have had His commandments written on our hearts, what need have we for those laws written in stone?

    Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    Eph 2:15  
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:[/list:u]

The same is discussed in 2 Cor chapter 3:

Where we have moved from one 'glory' (of the law) to another more exceeding 'glory'.

    2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,
was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2Co 3:8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be RATHER GLORIOUS?

2Co 3:9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.[/list:u]

I didn't want to post the whole chapter, but the entire chapter covers this well and ends:

    2Co 3:11  For if that which
is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2Co 3:12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2Co 3:13  And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2Co 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Co 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory TO GLORY, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/list:u]

From the 'lesser' glory of the law to the 'greater' glory of Christ??

Ok, so I posted almost all of the chapter....  :oops: I couldn't figure out which part to pick apart.  :roll:

So is the veil abolished, is the law abolished... are they one and the same... is the 'law' the veil??

Hasn't he freed us from sin and death.... having abolishing death... where the strength of sin is the law... the law being a ministration of death...  :shock:

ok, now I'm just confusing myself....  :roll:


Chrissie
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Steve Crook

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2006, 05:45:41 PM »

Isa 1:11-14
(11)  To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
(12)  When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
(13)  Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
(14)  Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.


Isa 43:23-24
(23)  Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honored me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
(24)  Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.


Jer 7:21-27
(21)  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
(22)  For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
(23)  But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
(24)  But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
(25)  Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
(26)  Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
(27)  Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.


It all comes down to what the Mosaic law was FOR. The LAWLESS.

What was the point of NOT eating/touching unclean meat? What is the spiritual application that can be applied to this Mosaic Law and raised?

The food requirments were there for a reason, to keep the lawless under a law, same as with homosexuality. Homosexuality comes from the heart, just the same as eating of certain foods, or not, comes from the same place. So, the real question for me, is not why we don't include the food laws in with keeping homosexuality a sin. The question I ask is, if Christ fullfilled the law, even man's added laws, then when he fulfilled those laws, what was then told to us concerning the estate of those laws?

Mat 15:17-20
(17)  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
(18)  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
(19)  For []out of the heart[/b] proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
(20)  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mar 7:7-16
(7)  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/u]
(8)  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
(9)  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(10)  For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
(11)  But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
(12)  And ye suffer him no more to do aught for his father or his mother;
(13)  Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
(14)  And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
(15)  There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him (HIS HEART), those are they that defile the man.
(16)  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar 7:18-23
(18)  And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
(19)  Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
(20)  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
(21)  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
(22)  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
(23)  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Didn't the physical Jews think their temple was great?

1Co 3:16-17
(16)  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17)  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

How again are we defiled? OUR HEART.....

1Ti 1:7-10
(7)  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
(8)  But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
(9)  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
(10)  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I tend to trust the words of our Lord and Christ when he says:

Mar 7:20
(20)  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

versus mans understanding BY WAY OF THE LAW:
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Steve Crook

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2006, 05:51:21 PM »

Quote from: chrissiela
The Law is not abolished for those who are still 'under' it, but isn't it abolished for those who have come to Christ?


Yes, I see it this way also, but as always when typing it out, my thoughts are thinking the same "train of thought" but the use of the "words" are not in jive sometimes when the actual thought.

It isn't until after someone reacts to the words, that I then see how it can be taken a different way...

Anyhow, thought I'd respond with that..

later
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Harryfeat

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2006, 06:35:40 PM »

Quote from: Andrew
Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Rom 13:10  Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


That seemed to me to be an excellent summary of how I understand that Christ's doctrine of love replaces and exceeds the law of the ten commandments.  If we truly follow Christ's doctrine such that we  love God and our neighbor, we wouldn't even think of doing anything outlined in the ten commandments.


Nowhere in the ten commandments does it address food or any sex prohibitions other than adultery.  Clearly to me adultery is not necessarily the same a homosexuality or fornication.


The subject of shellfish and homosexuality (fornication if you prefer) seems to keep coming up.  Perhaps someone can quote from scripture where Christ tells us these are sinful.

I remember the nuns  in catholic school telling us that if we masterbated we would go to hell.  If it's true then I guess I would have been  joining maybe 95% of the male teenage  population :lol:

While homosexuality is looked upon as taboo or a perversion  in ours and many other societies, I've read somewhere that it is not considered such in some societies , inlcluding certain American Indian tribes, that had not heard of the old testament.

While I don't condone  or even understand it all that well. I have friends who are a gay couple.  They are just as much in love with each other as I am with my wife.  I personally have just never considered it any of my concern whether what they do sexually with each other  is sinful or not.  

The point of this thread though asks .. are they fulfilling Christ's commandments of love.  I don't see how they are breaking any of the ten commandments either.

I am totally confused on this issue, as well,  even after all the scripture quoted.  I guess you can hit me with the standard eyes and ears too ignorant to understand line.  I plead guilty.

feat
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Origen II

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2006, 02:33:02 AM »

You see, I understand also that the food laws were just a 'type'.

But then I don't understand if breaking the food laws is the same as say...breaking one of the 10 Commandments.

Are the 10 Commandments the only things we can sin against...or are the other 603 Laws also considered somethings we can sin against? If this is so, then why do we still hold to certain precepts, ackowledging them as sins, yet we don't to others?

You see, I don't believe we should follow the Food Laws, but I want to know what makes them different from other Laws and WHY and WHERE it's pointed out.
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Origen II

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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2006, 02:38:53 AM »

Quote from: Steve Crook
Isa 1:11-14
(11)  To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
(12)  When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
(13)  Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
(14)  Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.


Isa 43:23-24
(23)  Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honored me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
(24)  Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.


Jer 7:21-27
(21)  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
(22)  For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
(23)  But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
(24)  But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
(25)  Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
(26)  Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
(27)  Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.


It all comes down to what the Mosaic law was FOR. The LAWLESS.

What was the point of NOT eating/touching unclean meat? What is the spiritual application that can be applied to this Mosaic Law and raised?

The food requirments were there for a reason, to keep the lawless under a law, same as with homosexuality. Homosexuality comes from the heart, just the same as eating of certain foods, or not, comes from the same place. So, the real question for me, is not why we don't include the food laws in with keeping homosexuality a sin. The question I ask is, if Christ fullfilled the law, even man's added laws, then when he fulfilled those laws, what was then told to us concerning the estate of those laws?

Mat 15:17-20
(17)  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
(18)  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
(19)  For []out of the heart[/b] proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
(20)  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mar 7:7-16
(7)  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/u]
(8)  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
(9)  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(10)  For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
(11)  But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
(12)  And ye suffer him no more to do aught for his father or his mother;
(13)  Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
(14)  And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
(15)  There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him (HIS HEART), those are they that defile the man.
(16)  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar 7:18-23
(18)  And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
(19)  Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
(20)  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
(21)  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
(22)  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
(23)  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Didn't the physical Jews think their temple was great?

1Co 3:16-17
(16)  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17)  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

How again are we defiled? OUR HEART.....

1Ti 1:7-10
(7)  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
(8)  But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
(9)  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
(10)  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I tend to trust the words of our Lord and Christ when he says:

Mar 7:20
(20)  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

versus mans understanding BY WAY OF THE LAW:


Awesome scripture, Steve.

Are you suggesting that God never really told the Israelites to burn offerings etc...that the laws outside of the 10 Commandments were just Laws made up by Moses?
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love_magnified

  • Guest
Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2006, 04:09:43 AM »

Quote from: Origen II
You see, I understand also that the food laws were just a 'type'.

But then I don't understand if breaking the food laws is the same as say...breaking one of the 10 Commandments.

Are the 10 Commandments the only things we can sin against...or are the other 603 Laws also considered somethings we can sin against? If this is so, then why do we still hold to certain precepts, ackowledging them as sins, yet we don't to others?

You see, I don't believe we should follow the Food Laws, but I want to know what makes them different from other Laws and WHY and WHERE it's pointed out.
They are no different from eachother. They all mean JESUS. I know you have heard that before, but understanding that answers all your questions. They are BOTH types and shadows of Christ within us. If we continue to think of the Law as something that is mandated and kept or broken, we can't get past a certain point. The food laws and the 10 commandments and the sacrifices, etc are the same, not different. They both represent Jesus Christ and him crucified within you.

The morality in the Law is not kept by us. It is kept by Christ in us, and so much more because Christ came with a higher law. He raised the bar and then he put himself in us to establish it. To me, all this talk about which laws we should keep and which ones are more important or less important misses the point. They are all equally important and equally fleshy. If Christ is in us, it is not a struggle: love eachother and avoid sexual immorality.
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eutychus

  • Guest
Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2006, 10:03:31 AM »

Quote from: Origen II
Quote from: Steve Crook
Please re-read the posts made because you obviously are over-looking what has already been stated.

The "bar" has been raised, NOT ABOLISHED. It has been fulfilled.

Commiting physical adultery is SIN as well as SPIRITUAL adultery. Both are SIN. However, if you are following spiritual law then are also following physical law. Physical homosexuality is a SIN under the Mosaic Law. Physical homosexuality is SIN under the spiritual law.

It is SIN, period. If it is a "spiritual law", it is ALSO a Mosaic Law but redefined to include the spiritual....which is MORE REAL, and NOT THE SHADOW. If physical adultery is SIN under the Mosaic Law, then spiritual adultery is SIN under God's Law.

It is not abolished, it is raised to a spiritual truth. Thinking IT is DOING IT.

Under the Mosaic Law you can think about it all you want, but acting on it was a crime. Now, thinking it is THE crime, and acting on it is simply just the end result. Either way, you are still guilty ....even WITHOUT the physical act.

When Eve lusted after the apple according to her flesh and eyes, and she also hadthe pride of life knowing it would give her the knowledge of good and even, SHE HAD ALREADY DONE THE DEED and WAS GUILTY. She has already spiritually eaten the apple.

Basically, this all has already been stated, but if you are conversating with someone who has not been given eyes and ears to see this, then you are battling against our Father himself..

I am sorry if none of this post helps you...


The thing is that these post are helping me understand the nature of sex as a sin, but no one has yet pointed out why it isn't a sin to eat certain foods.

My real dilema is the food laws etc. What makes not eating certain foods any less a sin than homosexuality?






havent read all post posts :shock:


its not what goes in that defiles its what comes out

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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2006, 10:31:45 AM »

Quote from: love_magnified
Quote from: Origen II
You see, I understand also that the food laws were just a 'type'.

But then I don't understand if breaking the food laws is the same as say...breaking one of the 10 Commandments.

Are the 10 Commandments the only things we can sin against...or are the other 603 Laws also considered somethings we can sin against? If this is so, then why do we still hold to certain precepts, ackowledging them as sins, yet we don't to others?

You see, I don't believe we should follow the Food Laws, but I want to know what makes them different from other Laws and WHY and WHERE it's pointed out.
They are no different from eachother. They all mean JESUS. I know you have heard that before, but understanding that answers all your questions. They are BOTH types and shadows of Christ within us. If we continue to think of the Law as something that is mandated and kept or broken, we can't get past a certain point. The food laws and the 10 commandments and the sacrifices, etc are the same, not different. They both represent Jesus Christ and him crucified within you.

The morality in the Law is not kept by us. It is kept by Christ in us, and so much more because Christ came with a higher law. He raised the bar and then he put himself in us to establish it. To me, all this talk about which laws we should keep and which ones are more important or less important misses the point. They are all equally important and equally fleshy. If Christ is in us, it is not a struggle: love eachother and avoid sexual immorality.


Since you state...... "They are no different from eachother. They all mean JESUS. I know you have heard that before, but understanding that answers all your questions."


........does that mean that we are sinning if we eat pork and shellfish.  Do we have to abide in spirit to the other 603 commandments?

This is my source of confusion also.  I enjoy eating shellfish and never gave it a second thought as being sinful.

feat

ps euty where do you get those clever smilies?
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