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Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"

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Becky:

--- Quote from: Origen II ---
--- Quote from: Steve Crook ---Please re-read the posts made because you obviously are over-looking what has already been stated.

The "bar" has been raised, NOT ABOLISHED. It has been fulfilled.

Commiting physical adultery is SIN as well as SPIRITUAL adultery. Both are SIN. However, if you are following spiritual law then are also following physical law. Physical homosexuality is a SIN under the Mosaic Law. Physical homosexuality is SIN under the spiritual law.

It is SIN, period. If it is a "spiritual law", it is ALSO a Mosaic Law but redefined to include the spiritual....which is MORE REAL, and NOT THE SHADOW. If physical adultery is SIN under the Mosaic Law, then spiritual adultery is SIN under God's Law.

It is not abolished, it is raised to a spiritual truth. Thinking IT is DOING IT.

Under the Mosaic Law you can think about it all you want, but acting on it was a crime. Now, thinking it is THE crime, and acting on it is simply just the end result. Either way, you are still guilty ....even WITHOUT the physical act.

When Eve lusted after the apple according to her flesh and eyes, and she also hadthe pride of life knowing it would give her the knowledge of good and even, SHE HAD ALREADY DONE THE DEED and WAS GUILTY. She has already spiritually eaten the apple.

Basically, this all has already been stated, but if you are conversating with someone who has not been given eyes and ears to see this, then you are battling against our Father himself..

I am sorry if none of this post helps you...
--- End quote ---


The thing is that these post are helping me understand the nature of sex as a sin, but no one has yet pointed out why it isn't a sin to eat certain foods.

My real dilema is the food laws etc. What makes not eating certain foods any less a sin than homosexuality?
--- End quote ---


That's a good question.... one that I am going to look at a little closer... i see what you're asking... i don't know the answer either

chrissiela:
The Law is not abolished for those who are still 'under' it, but isn't it abolished for those who have come to Christ?

Once we have had His commandments written on our hearts, what need have we for those laws written in stone?

Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:[/list:u]

The same is discussed in 2 Cor chapter 3:

Where we have moved from one 'glory' (of the law) to another more exceeding 'glory'.

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2Co 3:8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be RATHER GLORIOUS?

2Co 3:9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.[/list:u]

I didn't want to post the whole chapter, but the entire chapter covers this well and ends:

2Co 3:11  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2Co 3:12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2Co 3:13  And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2Co 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Co 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory TO GLORY, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/list:u]

From the 'lesser' glory of the law to the 'greater' glory of Christ??

Ok, so I posted almost all of the chapter....  :oops: I couldn't figure out which part to pick apart.  :roll:

So is the veil abolished, is the law abolished... are they one and the same... is the 'law' the veil??

Hasn't he freed us from sin and death.... having abolishing death... where the strength of sin is the law... the law being a ministration of death...  :shock:

ok, now I'm just confusing myself....  :roll:


Chrissie

Steve Crook:
Isa 1:11-14
(11)  To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
(12)  When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
(13)  Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
(14)  Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.


Isa 43:23-24
(23)  Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honored me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
(24)  Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.


Jer 7:21-27
(21)  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
(22)  For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
(23)  But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
(24)  But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
(25)  Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
(26)  Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
(27)  Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.


It all comes down to what the Mosaic law was FOR. The LAWLESS.

What was the point of NOT eating/touching unclean meat? What is the spiritual application that can be applied to this Mosaic Law and raised?

The food requirments were there for a reason, to keep the lawless under a law, same as with homosexuality. Homosexuality comes from the heart, just the same as eating of certain foods, or not, comes from the same place. So, the real question for me, is not why we don't include the food laws in with keeping homosexuality a sin. The question I ask is, if Christ fullfilled the law, even man's added laws, then when he fulfilled those laws, what was then told to us concerning the estate of those laws?

Mat 15:17-20
(17)  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
(18)  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
(19)  For []out of the heart[/b] proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
(20)  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mar 7:7-16
(7)  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/u]
(8)  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
(9)  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(10)  For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
(11)  But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
(12)  And ye suffer him no more to do aught for his father or his mother;
(13)  Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
(14)  And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
(15)  There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him (HIS HEART), those are they that defile the man.
(16)  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar 7:18-23
(18)  And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
(19)  Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
(20)  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
(21)  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
(22)  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
(23)  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Didn't the physical Jews think their temple was great?

1Co 3:16-17
(16)  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17)  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

How again are we defiled? OUR HEART.....

1Ti 1:7-10
(7)  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
(8)  But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
(9)  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
(10)  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I tend to trust the words of our Lord and Christ when he says:

Mar 7:20
(20)  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

versus mans understanding BY WAY OF THE LAW:

Steve Crook:

--- Quote from: chrissiela ---The Law is not abolished for those who are still 'under' it, but isn't it abolished for those who have come to Christ?

--- End quote ---


Yes, I see it this way also, but as always when typing it out, my thoughts are thinking the same "train of thought" but the use of the "words" are not in jive sometimes when the actual thought.

It isn't until after someone reacts to the words, that I then see how it can be taken a different way...

Anyhow, thought I'd respond with that..

later

Harryfeat:

--- Quote from: Andrew ---Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Rom 13:10  Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

--- End quote ---


That seemed to me to be an excellent summary of how I understand that Christ's doctrine of love replaces and exceeds the law of the ten commandments.  If we truly follow Christ's doctrine such that we  love God and our neighbor, we wouldn't even think of doing anything outlined in the ten commandments.


Nowhere in the ten commandments does it address food or any sex prohibitions other than adultery.  Clearly to me adultery is not necessarily the same a homosexuality or fornication.


The subject of shellfish and homosexuality (fornication if you prefer) seems to keep coming up.  Perhaps someone can quote from scripture where Christ tells us these are sinful.

I remember the nuns  in catholic school telling us that if we masterbated we would go to hell.  If it's true then I guess I would have been  joining maybe 95% of the male teenage  population :lol:

While homosexuality is looked upon as taboo or a perversion  in ours and many other societies, I've read somewhere that it is not considered such in some societies , inlcluding certain American Indian tribes, that had not heard of the old testament.

While I don't condone  or even understand it all that well. I have friends who are a gay couple.  They are just as much in love with each other as I am with my wife.  I personally have just never considered it any of my concern whether what they do sexually with each other  is sinful or not.  

The point of this thread though asks .. are they fulfilling Christ's commandments of love.  I don't see how they are breaking any of the ten commandments either.

I am totally confused on this issue, as well,  even after all the scripture quoted.  I guess you can hit me with the standard eyes and ears too ignorant to understand line.  I plead guilty.

feat

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