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Author Topic: I wish that someone could help me with this.  (Read 3103 times)

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TimothyVI

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I wish that someone could help me with this.
« on: December 07, 2006, 09:28:44 AM »

I am really not understanding the apparent contradiction in exactly how
many Gods we have.
I do not believe in the trinity, but why did Jehovah tell us
numerous times that there is no other God but Him, and then
in the new testament, introduce us to his Father God? He even taught us to pray to
his Father.

We now have two distinct Gods, Ray seems to make this clear.
Even in a recent email to Ray he said "Jesus was the LORD [Jehovah] God of the Old Testament. He "emptied" Himself is the word used in Phillipians to describe what Jesus did in order to become man, flesh, so that He could DIE.  He has once again been returned to this splender, although he always had the "glory" of God upon Him even in His flesh.  Jesus now possesses with the Father all power in heaven and earth, and all judgment is given unto Him."

No one would touch my last question on this same subject. In fact it was the only question in the last six months on this forum that no one would comment on. Is this a forbidden subject on this forum,
or do other people have the same difficulty with understanding it?

I am trying to get this straight in my mind. I pray each time that I study the bible, for God to help me
to understand his word the way he wanted it understood. I think that is why he has brought me to this forum.
Without a trinity, or at least a duality, how do we reconcile "Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God" how do we reconcile that with praying to two Gods? Was it that only in the old testament were we to worship only one God, but after Jesus introduced us to his Father in the new testament, we could worship another God as well?

If no one else can help me with this, I won't ask again.

Tim
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hillsbororiver

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2006, 09:56:01 AM »

Hi Tim,

At the Mobile Conference last September during the course of Ray's presentation this question was brought up, as a matter of fact it was me that asked it. You can hear the answer on the audio.

In a nutshell "God" is a title comprised of the Father and the Son, and they have no part of the pagan gods such as Baal or any other.

 
John 10:30
† †

I and my Father are one.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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hillsbororiver

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hillsbororiver

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2006, 12:36:32 PM »

In John Chapter 14 Jesus explains His relationship with the Father to His disciples;

 John 14 (King James Version)


 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

 30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

 31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

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Pax Vobiscum

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2006, 03:25:31 PM »

I sense that you are not yet satisfied with the answers from Ray and those posted here, although the answers I read were intriguing.

My expertise lies in the NT, not the old, but I do know a bit about this stuff.† But since I am at work and have limited time today, I'll give you some pointers from off-my-cuff....

The answer to your question lies in ancient worship of regional gods in known world.† You know the Amy Grant tune, "El Shaddai"?† There's a key.† El was one of the gods worshipped by the Oikumene of the ancient world.† El was the "father of the gods" and the big cheese, as it were.† El now has come to mean Yaweh/Jehovah.† Does Beth-El ring a bell-el?† Beth-El or Bethel is "House of God."

When the OT writers credited Jehovah as saying essentially to not have other gods before Him, it is clear that there were some in the region worshipping other gods.† In fact, (hold on to your seat) it was acceptable at that time (and for a long time after) to believe in more than one god!† Only after finding Moses' sermon did the ancients really settle on Jehovah as the only God.†

This is a very "quick and simple" answer to a very complex question.† I hope it gets you started on some very intersting research.†

You keep learning and posting and I'll help all I can.

Beware the answers you seek.... you just might find them!

Peace.
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YellowStone

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2006, 04:35:18 PM »

This iis an interesting discussion and I find the answers very gratifying.

Just to pick up what Pax wrote, (at least I hope too) and John 10:30 I and my Father are one. They are one inthe same manner a husband and wife a one.

Neither claims eminence over the other although Jesus did state: for my Father is greater than I. (Jhn 14:28)

It also becomes clearer when one realizes that because Jehovah of the OT and Jesus of the NT are one and the same, then no human has ever come in contact with the father, one on one. To my knowledge the Father has ever spoken to man so that man could physically hear.

So this would leave us with the fact that Jehovah / Christ were the only ones who ever spoke, and this aligns very well with the following Scripture:

Jhn 1:1
  • In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Jehovah / Christ was God spoken word. Does this make sense?

If I am wrong, then please forgive me and point me in the right direction. :)

Thanks,
Darren
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Pax Vobiscum

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2006, 07:25:23 PM »

Actually, I understand the initial question to be more about the suggestion that in the OT Jehovah speaks of other gods.† My understanding of some of these answers deal with the divinity of Jesus.

When Yahweh suggests other gods in the OT, He is speaking of other distinct gods -- not necessarily emanations from Himself.

If this topic stays active, I promise a more complete and readable contribution to the discussion.

Peace
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TimothyVI

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2006, 08:14:08 PM »

Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I was afraid that no one would respond.

Thanks Joe for all you have given me to study. I downloaded all of the conference audios.
That took all afternoon. But I will listen to them this week.
So far I feel like a complete idiot, because the light still hasn't come on. I still see
Jesus and our Father as two completely, distinctly different entities.
I and my Father are one is referring to being one in belief and purpose, not one person.
So that doesn't help me with all of the scriptures where Jesus, Jehovah commanded us
to have no other Gods before Him.

Thanks for your input Pax. It is not that I am not satisfied with the answers that I have been
given so far. Believe me, I am thrilled that I was not ignored again. It is just that I am still not
able to rest easy in my understanding of the command of Jesus to worship no other god.
That was the reason that trinitarians had to come up with the theory that all three were really just one
co-equal God. That way they could still worship only one God.
I know that there were many other Gods during that time. I know that God commanded us to
not worship those gods. But the commands also seemed to include our Father in the restriction
because the people of the old testament knew nothing of the Father.


Darren, what you said is starting to make some sense to me. Jehovah knew that none of the other gods being worshipped during that time were our Father. So he had no reason to command us to not worship Him, just all of the other gods.
I think that Pax might have been saying something very similar. I just didn't catch it.


HMMMM, lots to think about tonight.

Thank you all very much.

Tim
« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 08:16:40 PM by TimothyVI »
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Kat

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2006, 11:35:50 PM »


Hi Tim,

This subject is very hard for me to explain,
so I found this in Ray's Trinity article that really has this nailed down.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ---------------------------------------------

A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!

Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:

"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!

Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.

In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.

I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

And the next verse says

"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)

I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.

If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!

The above verse really doesnít need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.

How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."

Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"

Is this too hard for anyone? Is not Godís definition far easier and better than the theologiansí "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?

Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let Godís Word tell us. We donít need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesnít the Scripture say so? He didnít come out of the trinity and He didnít come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!

Jesus Christ said,

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!

And again:

"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."

Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.

And again:

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).

Where do we read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?

There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).

There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

And remember these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?

There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Fatherís office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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stego

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2006, 03:53:11 AM »

Wow i never knew that Jesus Christ is Lord but is not God!  Prior to just now i had always interpreted

Quote
I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).


to mean Jesus is God.  That's crazy how long i've been under this false impression, even after being on this site for quite awhile now.  Thanks Kat for enlightening me!

Sean
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Craig

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2006, 08:31:05 AM »

Wow i never knew that Jesus Christ is Lord but is not God!  Prior to just now i had always interpreted

Quote
I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).



Sean

Careful Sean,  True Jesus is Lord...AND he is also God, BUT He is not the Father.  Think of God as a title.

There is God the Father and God the Son. 

Example my surname is Parsons, there is Parsons the father (my dad) and Parsons the son (me :D).  We are both Parsons.

And someday we will all be brought into the family of God.

Blessings
Craig
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 09:50:35 AM by parsonssc »
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TimothyVI

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2006, 09:43:53 AM »

Thanks Kat, but it was reading and re-reading what Ray said that got me more confused.

Ray said,
"In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.

I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6). "

That makes perfect sense to me. What doesn't make sense is why earlier in time, old testament,  Jesus said
that He was the only God and that we should have no other Gods before Him.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.
Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me.
Hsa 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me.
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
1Ki 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD [is] God, [and that there is] none else

I think that  we agree that it was Jesus saying these things in each of these passages.
In none of these scriptures does Jesus of the old testament intimate that there is one greater than He. He in fact makes it clear that He is the only God for us. So if you believed that there was a God greater than him, you were blasphemeing against him.
I agree with everything that Ray said in his paper as it relates to what the new testament teaches. The new testament is crystal clear about the relationship between Jesus and his Father. So if I disregard anything that Jesus said about himself in the old testament, I have no problem. Having the new covenant, are we to disregard the old testament altogether.

I am not splitting hairs to make something difficult that seems clear to many others. Perhaps I just do not yet have the eyes to see and the ears to hear. I am asking God in my prayers to give me the knowledge.

Thank you all for your patience with me.

Tim
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hillsbororiver

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2006, 10:13:39 AM »

Hi Tim,

Jesus did not give the New Covenant to the old time Prophets either, "the better promise" was reserved for His elect. The message He gave ancient Israel is not to put false earthly gods before Him, the Father was not revealed until Jesus came in the flesh. Remember John Chapter 14, posted earlier in the thread.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe
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jerry

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2006, 08:00:38 PM »

Ive always understood the other gods that God was speeking of was the pagan gods of the other nations,and god was defineing Himself away from them and was not,through that one statement,trying to explain eveything about himself,he gave Israel only what they needed at that time and that was to serve Him and Him only ,and that God had not at that time revealed Himself completly as a famiily type to Isreal at that time, and I beleave that is one of the mysteries that Jesus came to reveal through the Holy Spirit which brings us back to genises when God said Let us make man in our image after our likeness.......Jerry
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stego

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2006, 04:14:21 AM »

Hi Craig,
    I guess it would be okay to think of it as God the Father, and God the Son, thinking of "God" as a surname.  But then i think you have to agree that we all will have that surname someday, as we too will someday have the full image of God.  Jesus is only God in the sense that he is in the full image of God.  So for example, Jesus did not create the universe, but God did.  This is my understanding now.

Sean
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Kat

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Re: I wish that someone could help me with this.
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2006, 12:21:16 PM »

Hi Sean,

I thought I would add a little more to this subject.

Joh 4:24† God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

1Ti 1:17† To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Omniscient: Having universal knowledge or knowledge of all things; infinitely knowing; all-seeing; as the omniscient God.

Omnipresence: Presence in every place at the same time; unbounded or universal presence; ubiquity. Omnipresence is an attribute peculiar to God.

God is Spirit, not a Spirit, and He is invisible.†
The universe consists of the things of God's already eternally existing Self.
Matter is spiritual power and energy, tho invisible, and the Father is the source of it all.

1Co 8:6† yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

As physical being we can only come to understand and relate to the Father, but by Christ in us.
If our idea of God the Father is a man sitting on a throne, looking out over the creation, we are not going to get it.† We have to look beyond the physical.
Christ came to reveal the Father to us, because there is no other way to understand the Father, but through Him.

Luk 10:22† All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

God is invisible, but in what Christ is, and has done in the works of creation and redemption, we have a fair and full representation of what God the Father is.

Heb 1:3† He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



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