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Author Topic: To many ifs.  (Read 5941 times)

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Richard D

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To many ifs.
« on: November 11, 2008, 11:07:45 PM »

I feel very distraught at the difficulty of the process of being saved. It seems as if God has made it almost unattainable!!!

The process of being saved is one big if with God which frightens me because Iím not perfect and because I have been subjected to vanity by God. I am carnal and sold under sin and not by my choice.

Ií am weak and not perfect but imperfect and being imperfect I can not trust my fallen nature to live up to the standards of God for the ability I find is not in me. As much as I would like to, I can not will myself to do righteousness can I?

I will be saved if I abide in Christ until the end if indeed the spirit of God is in me but now I read this scripture Heb 10: 26-27

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27  but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

Well this scripture says it all, so there can be no more sacrifice for me if I sin willfully but I am carnal and cannot guarantee I will not sin willfully because I am weak. What happens if I overcome any sin in my life and then commit that sin again? Now I read this scripture, 2 pet 1:9-

2Pe 1:9  For he that lacketh these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.

I donít have free will and Iím right where God wants me to be and I cannot do anything outside of Godís purpose but now I read this scripture 2 Pet 1:10

2Pe 1:10  Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:

Now I see itís up to me a sinner sold under sin by being subjected to vanity have to make my own salvation sure and IF I do these things I wonít stumble.

So Jesus die for my sins but if I donít repent of my sins then I am dead in my sins but I am sold under sin. I feel my back is against a rock and a hard place.

Christendom makes heaven easily obtainable with all there lies but I see Godís truth makes heaven barely obtainable with His truths.

I finally realize what Paul meant when he said woe is me. Jesus said for us to count the cost, it seems to me the cost is greater than my sinful nature can pay. Please donít take me wrong, God is good no doubts about that but there are too many ifs to feel secure.  I know God is aware of all these things I feel inwardly because God put them there to begin with. So it all comes down to me like this, either God saves me or I save myself.

But I already know I cannot save myself but I also know I can become saved if I this or if I that but there is always and if as if I have to save myself.

I apologize if I have upset you or in some way hurt your faith as this was not my intention but itís a difficult thing to feel everything is fine between God and me one day and the next day to feel different.

I see myself as a yoyo never really knowing my end, its like do all these things and then see if you made it. I starting to think the odds of winning the state lottery for billions of dollars are in ones favor than becoming saved by God.



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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2008, 11:31:53 PM »

Hey Richard!

He has made it unattainable for you!

The only person who can attain it is Christ!

1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2008, 11:34:50 PM »

Richard I see you're having a bad day :'( Don't worry you're not alone! If salvation were impossible to attain then Jesus must have given his life in vain! I don't think so! :o Remember Ray says it's an ongoing process. It's not get saved, screw up, get saved again and on and on! That's a big fat lie! It's you (and all of us) asking forgiveness, screwing up, asking forgiveness, and so on until we are perfected! You know that will take a really long time! Was ANYONE in Scripture good NO not one, not Moses, not Abraham, certainly not David, What about the disciples were they perfect Nooooo! Not by a long shot! So why would God expect you to be perfect ???

It's your willingness to let God drag you around until you're perfect! Obedience is you crawling back to God asking Him to help you to stay out of the sin, if you see something that looks like sin to you RUN!!!  :D
Now you are too important to God and us to start believing a lying devil!  >:( Now get out there and FIGHT!! Oh sorry I got a little carried away! ;)
Now be sweet! ;)
Kathy :)


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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2008, 11:39:40 PM »

Oh, Sorry Martin, I'm glad you reminded him (and me) that it's Jesus who does it because we aren't qualified!
I meant that! We can only let God do it and we follow as He drags! :D
  :-[ Kathy


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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 11:43:14 PM »

No, I am the one who is sorry!

I should have responded with a little more compassion instead of the robot like rapid fire "this is protocol" type response.

Sorry Richard!


  • Guest
Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 11:51:50 PM »

Martin at least you can do that! I have to look up everything I know the verses in my head but not always where they're  located! That's why we are all members of the body we each have a different role to do! I appreciate your "rapid fire" response! ;D
Kathy :)

Richard D

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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2008, 01:02:41 AM »


Your right, Iím having a bad day today and feel like the weight of the whole world is resting on me. Iím getting these mix signals today for what ever reason. I need a day of two to sort this stuff out.



Thank you also, Iím going through these doubts right now and Iím struggling I do appreciate your input and no need to apologize as no offence was taking my brother.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 08:23:45 AM by Richard D »


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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2008, 01:16:14 AM »

Hi Richard,

I think this might help, it is an excerpt  from the transcript 'Who and What is Jesus and Who is the Father?',4472.msg34384.html#msg34384 ---

itís like the old saying; act like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God.  Thatís the way you should live your life.  He (Jesus) could not help but pray. 

What appears to be contradictions are not contradictions, when you have a higher spiritual understanding of what itís talking about.  Let me show you a perfect example and it sounds like a contradiction, but itís not.

Phi 2:12  ďTherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Ē

Doesnít that contradict this whole thing... weíre saved by grace and not of works?  Now weíre to work out our own salvation?  What is that?  How do you explain that ďOf Myself I can do nothingĒ (John 5:30)?   And He said YOU can do nothing (John 15:5), to the apostles.  Then Paul says ďwork out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Ē  Well it does sound like a contradiction.  But read the next verse and He tells us why.  "For" now that word always means Ďbecause' or itís another word for because.

Phi 2:13  ďFor (because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.Ē

Some of you probably still donít get the answer, but it is there.  "Work out your own salvation," is not the gist of that saying.  He is not saying, work out your own salvation(.)  No, Heís saying ďwork out your own salvation with fear and trembling, thatís where the emphases is, on fear and trembling, not on work out your own salvation. 

You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, why?  Because it all depends on God!  If God doesnít do it, it wonít happen, IT WONíT HAPPEN!  So we live in fear and trepidation.

I cannot drive down the street, being the safest driver that I can be and know that I will avoid an accident, if God has already determined Iím going to have one.  What it doesnít mean is you can drive down the road foolishly... or you donít need to wear a seat belt... or close your eyes for a while... or something like that.  But you do have to act it out.  Why?  You have to, He makes you. 

He made you come out of your motherís womb and He made you cry.  Not that He forced you, but circumstances, He brought about all the circumstances.  He made you cry, makes you grow and makes you fight with your kid brother. 

You do all these things and people reach a place where they get tired of it.  So we have plays like ĎStop the world I want to get off.í  It's like Iíve had enough, Iím at the end of my rope and itís the end of the line.  Well itís only the end of the line IF God has determined itís the end of the line. 
If say you came to that conclusion at 8:30, and He knows you wonít die until your 77 1/2, your not going to end it. 

Thatís where the fear and trepidation come in.  It ALL depends on God, thereís nothing you can do.  But YOU have to work it out.  YOU have to get up and go to work.  YOU have to do all this stuff. 

Then you say I donít want to anymore, well circumstances make you.
So you think, Iíll just end it all... then your child comes up and says ĎMommie.í  Now you say, oh my gosh I have a child, I canít kill myself Iíve got to live for my child.  You see? 

So God makes you live this life.  He makes you do all this, HE MAKES YOU DO IT.  But not against your will.  He puts you in circumstances and thatís the only way you can go.  The ONLY way!

You think, 'I shouldnít have done this or that.'  Thatís right you should think that way.  You should think that... 'I shouldnít have done that,' because then you're learning.
When you learn, you will then put that into practice, because God doesnít have you learn things so you canít put them into practice.  He has you learn things so you CAN put them into practice.  But the only way you will learn them, is if you see how stupid it was, and you say if I had it to do over, I wouldnít have done that.  So YOU HAD TO DO THEM!  Because that lead to a lot of trouble and pain and sorrow.  But did you learn your lesson?  'Well yea.'  Then donít do it again okay, now their back on track.

But the whole human race does not comprehend that they do not have free-will.  They have a will based on everything that everything makes them do.  Thatís their 'free' will.

When you think about this you can go crazy, because the whole thing is bizarre.

mercy, peace and love

« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 11:23:55 PM by Kat »


  • Guest
Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2008, 01:17:49 AM »

Martin at least you can do that! I have to look up everything I know the verses in my head but not always where they're  located! That's why we are all members of the body we each have a different role to do! I appreciate your "rapid fire" response! ;D
Kathy :)

Yeah you're so right Ninny, it is a gift, a free gift,

it's called e-sword!



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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2008, 05:21:19 AM »

Hi Richard, Great thread everyone. Love you a lot! Richard, I struggled with these concepts some months ago. Thinking about it broke something inside of me. I became fearful, and to a certain point unbelieving as well. It just seemed too hard! The reason I had these thoughts was that I talked to a man who criticized me for not going to any church on Sundays. He told me that Satan had fooled me into believing that everything was OK in my life, that I could just take it easy and 'sleep'. Well, this got me thinking and I started to be a bit unsure to say the least. I knew that nothing was wrong about the church thing, but I couldn't let go of that judging tone (Who do you think you are, you don't go to church?). I felt like... 'This is hopeless'. But after thinking about this for many days, I arrived back to the cornerstone Jesus Christ! Here's the thing: We don't know if we will be the Elect, but we don't know if we will NOT be the Elect. If you knew, you would be puffed up! It's for our own good that we don't know! In my opinion, the fact that you struggle with fighting sin, the fact that you worry about sin shows that you at least are on the right track! Feeling saved just because you go to a church every Sunday morning shows that you are far away from realizing how hard it is to get saved. Richard, thank God that you worry about these things! Be patient and pray. Remember always that GOD IS GOOD! He won't let you down! God bless you, Eirik
Hereís how to tell if you have faith; how do you liveÖ what do you doÖ what do you accomplish in lifeÖ what are your goalsÖ What is there about you that proves that you have this faith and belief inside of you? What?


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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2008, 05:25:02 AM »

And by the way... There are no if's with God. They just seem to be if's to us!  ;D
Hereís how to tell if you have faith; how do you liveÖ what do you doÖ what do you accomplish in lifeÖ what are your goalsÖ What is there about you that proves that you have this faith and belief inside of you? What?


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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 05:53:12 AM »

To right eggi!

We become puffed up enough with the knowledge He gives us, imagine if We knew for sure that We were the elect!


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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 11:52:59 AM »

Kat, Amen to that!



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Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 12:25:20 PM »

My dearest brother, Richard,

I read your post yesterday, and for the life of me, I could not find one word to comfort you by!!

I tossed and turned all night, my heart was heavy for you and Martinez.

Then, in the morning, this thought came to me:

God said through Paul to comfort each other with the same comfort that we are comforted.
So here it is, the comfort that I am comforted by:

When I feel like I must do God's job, when I feel down and have one of these seasons [sometimes days]
where I feel that it my salvation depends on me, and from I stand, it will never be accomplished,
when the cross gets to heavy to bear, when I see my own wretchedness, weakness and dirt,
when I question why, when all these if's come to my mind, when scripture does not connect with Scripture,
when I just DON'T UNDERSTAND, I retreat in the love language.

I pray that you will not laugh at me, but here it is:

I play this song in my CD player.
Here are the lyrics:

                         "Looking back, in retrospect,
                          Funny how I see,
                          The laughs and frowns,
                          The ups and downs,
                          Is part of destiny!!

                          You wish upon a star, and hope,
                          One day that wish come true,
                          BUT I WOLDN'T CHANGE A SINGLE THING
                          FOR THE CHANCE OF LOVING YOU.

                          Born for this, destined for greatness!!
                          I was prepared for this,
                          YOUR STRENGHT FOR MY WEAKNESS,
                         I learned that loving you is easy,
                          And that with love it comes a RISK
                          And in my quest to find the answer,
                          FOUND I WAS BORN FOR THIS!!!!!

                          What we don't KNOW,
                          Time will tell,
                           This I do believe,
                          Life doesn't mean just happiness,
                          There's always room for rain,
                          BUT IF WE LEARN WHAT MATTER MOST
                          SPRING WILL COME AGAIN!!!

                          THERE IS A TIME TO LIVE
                          AND A TIME TO DIE
                          Let's celebrate each moment of our lives,
                          AND IF EVER LOOSE OUR WAY
                          BECAUSE THE HEART IS TORN,
                          NEVER LET A QUESTION WHY,
                          THE REASON WE ARE BORN!!!!!!!

I hope that this touched your heart,
Let go and let GOD!!

I hope that is not at me!!
And if it is so what,
I became as fool, and I am willing even to became a clown,

Your sister that loves you,

PS: Martinez this is for you as well brother!!! ;D ;D ;D



  • Guest
Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2008, 12:42:56 PM »

Good Morning Richard,

                               Kat covered this quite well mentioning Ray's explanation about
" working out one's Salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING " and Ariel provided some
comforting words.

                               After reading your Thread, this Scripture was in my thoughts
from reflecting on your initial Post: " When the Disciples heard that, they expressed very
great surprise saying: Who really can be saved. " Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them:

                                      Kind Regards, Samson.


  • Guest
Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2008, 12:54:52 PM »

Brothers and Sisters,

Thank you All for the great Scriptures, remarks and observations. Richard, you are going through the walk
now as are we. The highs and lows of this tortured path sometimes seem way too much to bear and i want
to quit many times. Especially when i know how to make it in the carnal world so well and my family is hurt
and do not understand. On my own i would never have been here but instead living it up as if this life is all
there is. God in His Mercy and Grace Has Shown me that He Has Already Made my way and He is Taking me
and you and All of humanity to the Place that He is Placing us. Of myself i expect nothing but evil and lust
and carnality.

In God Through Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ is my (our) only Hope to get to the Place He has Already
Placed us Before The Worlds Were Formed.

Take heart Brother, turn from the beast, Turn To God, He is in the direction you are currently not looking.

II Samuel 22:3:
The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge,
my saviour; you save me from violence.

Psalms 18:2:
The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler,
and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Proverbs 30:5:
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Daniel 3:28:
Then Nebuchadnezzar spoke, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent
his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies,
that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

 II Corinthians 1:9:
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raises the dead:

I Timothy 4:10:
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

I Timothy 6:17:
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God,
who gives us richly all things to enjoy;

In Hope and Love,



Richard D

  • Guest
Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2008, 10:48:10 PM »

Hello my brothers and sisters, Kat, Ariel, Eggi, Samson and George.

I am very thankful for the input each and every one of you has given. Kat, the excerpt from Rayís papers you have put down on this thread was absolutely beautiful with perfect timing also.

Sometimes when I read scripture it appears its saying to me, I have much to do with my salvation which came in the form of ( if )  I do this or if I do that. I know in my heart I cannot live up to the standards that God has place before me. I became overwhelmed knowing I do not possess the ability to adhere to the righteousness of God.

Ariel, Yes I was comforted by the lyrics you wrote down and no sister I assure you I did not laugh but realized how fortunate I am to have a sister like you. Thank you Ariel.

EggI, Thank you for sharing your experience with me you had a few months ago as it helped me with this heavy load of doubt I been going through. Thank you my brother and friend.

Samson, that scripture you have given me Matt. 19:25,26. Was very comforting to read as it really hit home. Thank you my brother and friend for writing down that scripture for me as it helped me to understand salvation depends not on me but on our God.

George, Thank you my brother and friend for writing down the scriptures you did because they were of comfort to me as well, Thank you very much George I want you to know I appreciate much.

I find my walk with God is filled with ups and downs accessing and reassessing, feeling inadequate and victorious with frowns and smiles and growing pains mixed with insecurities and panic as well as feeling the love of God shining through like the morning sun.

One thing I am sure of in this life, there is no ability found in me to live up to the high standards God has place before me. I discovered I am at His mercy fully and completely.
Life is only found in God and no other.

I humble thank you all for being there when my day turned dark as night. God bless you all.  :)

                                                    In His Love. Richard.   


  • Guest
Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2008, 11:09:17 PM »


No thanks needed; It Is All Of God. What you put on the forum is what we all or at least i also
go through daily. But for The Grace Of God, i would not survive a day on my own, i break every
day and many times feel so lonely it hurts physically. We are in the world, i definitely feel that
i am not of this world; just passing through and suffering and learning.

Just so you know, your posts are always lifting old scars and opening hidden doors that hide
the beast in me. This is a good thing for me so i never get too puffed up for long before i am
convicted again and must repent and turn away. I could say a lot more Brother but i think
you understand whereof i write.

Love Repentance and Faith,


Richard D

  • Guest
Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 12:23:07 AM »

Hi George.

I hear you loud and clear and I do understand what youíre saying and I thank you for your honesty.

I find human nature funny in many ways but what strikes at me the most is the mask we all wear in life, we human being always need to be someone or something we are not. You know George, I found in the beginning with God I had this joy I no not how to describe but after awhile I discovered the self righteousness within me that I never really saw before.

I know God was and still is showing me the mask I wore all my life and itís the stripping off of this mask that is so hurtful because it leaves us bare exposing the self righteousness within us.

Thatís the mask we all wear George, the mask of pride, but deep down inside we know the truth the real truth because God keeps showing us who we really are and itís a hurtful thing to our pride.

Pride loves to stand up and say I can save myself, I can do that or I can do this. The truth of the matter is pride is our worst enemy. The beast within cannot live without this pride, therein is the conflict we all struggle with everyday of our lives and whatís worst is I know as long as I live in this life the beast is not going away.

This is where my insecurities stem from knowing every time I see the beast within me I wonder what God sees in me?

But like the scripture says what is man that thou should me mindful of. It is what it is George and I realize it will be like this unto my body lies lifeless and the breath of God in me returns back to Him.

Who said it was going to be easy anyways? But sometimes I do get down and discourage but never destroyed.  :)

Thank you George for your response. In Godís Love. Richard. 


  • Guest
Re: To many ifs.
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 03:11:14 PM »

Dear Richard,
in His eyes, you are beautiful!!! ;D ;D ;D
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