bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Jonah's Gourd  (Read 8376 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Jonah's Gourd
« on: November 14, 2008, 05:03:26 PM »


Does anyone see part of a familiar tact or pattern used by God throughout scripture/history?
   

 Jonah 4

 1But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.

 2And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

 3Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.

 4Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?

 5So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.

 6And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.

 7But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.

 8And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.

 9And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.

 10Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:

 11And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

 I have been fascinated by this chapter for a while (especially taking into consideration the previous chapter), there seems tp be much here that deals with our journey.

 Peace,

 Joe

P.S.

 
gourd
   
1: any of a family (Cucurbitaceae, the gourd family) of chiefly herbaceous tendril-bearing vines including the cucumber, melon, squash, and pumpkin

2: the fruit of a gourd : pepo ; especially : any of various hard-rinded inedible fruits of plants of two genera (Lagenaria and Cucurbita) often used for ornament or for vessels and utensils
out of one's gourd also off one's gourd : crazy
Logged

Akira329

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 718
  • "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2008, 07:44:56 PM »

Funny you mentioned this chapter Joe.
Me and Marques once discussed this. :D

Antaiwan
Logged
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Akira329

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 718
  • "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2008, 07:52:37 PM »

Just when things seem to be going MY way, I am beaten down again.
A very repetitive pattern in the lives of those whom God loves and whom he loves he chastises.

Antaiwan
Logged
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2008, 08:26:14 PM »

John Newton, 1779, from Olney Hymns, vol. 1, hymn 75

As once for Jonah, so the Lord
To soothe and cheer my mournful hours,
Prepared for me a pleasing gourd,
Cool was its shade, and sweet its flow'rs.

To prize his gift was surely right;
But through the folly of my heart,
It hid the Giver from my sight,
And soon my joy was changed to smart.

While I admired its beauteous form,
Its pleasant shade and graceful fruit;
The Lord, displeased, sent forth a worm,
Unseen, to prey upon the root.

I trembled when I saw it fade,
But guilt restrained the murm'ring word;
My folly I confessed, and prayed,
Forgive my sin, and spare my gourd.

His wondrous love can ne'er be told,
He heard me and relieved my pain;
His word the threat'ning worm controlled,
And bid my gourd revive again.

Now, Lord, my gourd is mine no more,
'Tis thine, who only couldst it raise;
The idol of my heart before,
Henceforth shall flourish to thy praise.
 

A lot to be said about the gourd,but here is this set of lyrics in the meantime

beloved



Logged

Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2008, 03:54:53 AM »

There are so many things about this Book. But in light of your last thread....Patience

Here is Jonah, a prophet of Israel, sent to Nineveh to preach repentance...
Jonah =  a dove; he that oppresses; destroyer

Jonah tries to evade God, He does not want to go to this cesspool kingdom and so he runs off.  God causes the storm and Jonah knows the storm occurred because of him so he talks the crew into casting him overboard so God will punish only him for his disobedience.

In the water he is eaten by a great sea creature, after three days of hearburn...this fish vomits Jonah in the right place...He then goes to Nineveh and preaches ... the king and people repent

Jonah then goes and build a booth and sits to see what is going to happen next.. He sits there on the east and God causes a shade plant to come and then a worm to destroy it...Jonah loses it...Jonah knows God is causing all of this and is not one bit happy about any of it.

he knew God was Good and Faithful and would save these worthless people who have a fish god. He was angry because God removed the shade....The one bit of creature comfort that he had. 

God has shown abundant mercy and patience to a stubborn narrow minded man who has blatantly opposed His will.

This book shows that God can cause anyone not just Israel to repent and He will draw them to him. 

Jonah was a shadow of the Resurrection of Jesus,  He drew Jonah out of the Fish and Nineveh out of their fish God ...

God was/ is patient withl Israel and He is/ has been extremely patient with Christianity and the Unbelievers. He has a plan and His Word will not come back void.

After that talk with God, Jonah repented and wrote his story.  In Judism it is read on the day of atonement even today.

I think it odd that the religious folk ( pharisees, Nicodemus and Nathan his disciple at the time of Jesus...said that no prophet came from Galilee when Jonah's family came 50 miles north of Nazareth.  He is not a major prophet but a minor and he is also mentioned in 2 Kings.

beloved

Logged

Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2008, 03:59:41 PM »

I wrote the last post at 2:am and can not stop thinking about this.
It seems like such a tall tale but it is so loaded with information

The gourd really represents this world, the things of this world which God brings to man without any preparation on man's part. that bring comfort to man, We receive comfort from the things of this earth. We receive comfort from the plants and the food, the weather, the organic matter that we use to build our things.

Man by nature is more concerned about this earth than he is about his fellow man. We see this today as man gets very uptight when Panda or baby seals are threatened but do you see them organizing any world campaigns and selling tee shirts of protest when the Rowandans or other folks are being slaughtered. Cut down some trees or kill some spotted owls...watch out. This creation is what is important to them. And this is what pains them.

Do you see something similar here, Jonah. is more concerned about this plant than he is about Nineveh, that was on the threshold of being destroyed. You see how unbalanced, how out of proportion, the attitude of man is toward this world.

He is far more concerned about those things which benefit him directly, the things that this world produces, than he is about his fellow man

I found this YLT translation very interesting.

Jon 4:10  And Jehovah saith, `Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for which thou didst not labour, neither didst thou nourish it, which a son of a night was, and a son of a night perished

Being that we are called sons of light...the things of the world are sons of darkness, like grass ....here today gone tommorrow...this is very poetic.

Here at the end of Jonah we are back to almost the same position we were in at the end of chapter one:

the outsiders(the sailors and now the city and its king)  had turned to God despite the example they had from a follower of God and they  understood and obeyed God better than the prophet did.

And the prophet is once again isolated by his own attitudes and actions, and his only chance out of his isolation is turning back and talking with God. It is time for the insiders to come in too.

The storm,  the great fish, the gourd and the worm and scorching sun may all seem at first to be just God giving Jonah a taste of his own medicine, but I think that is only a part of it.

There is something else going on in these last verses. God is calling out to Jonah, asking him to end his isolation and come home.

There is a interplay play of selfishness/selfrighteousness going on in all of us sometimes and we need to constanly pray that God will keep us on the straight and narrow.......for like Jonah and Elijah we are all men who are subject to like passions

beloved
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2008, 06:54:45 PM »

I wrote the last post at 2:am and can not stop thinking about this.
It seems like such a tall tale but it is so loaded with information

The gourd really represents this world, the things of this world which God brings to man without any preparation on man's part. that bring comfort to man, We receive comfort from the things of this earth. We receive comfort from the plants and the food, the weather, the organic matter that we use to build our things.

Man by nature is more concerned about this earth than he is about his fellow man. We see this today as man gets very uptight when Panda or baby seals are threatened but do you see them organizing any world campaigns and selling tee shirts of protest when the Rowandans or other folks are being slaughtered. Cut down some trees or kill some spotted owls...watch out. This creation is what is important to them. And this is what pains them.

Do you see something similar here, Jonah. is more concerned about this plant than he is about Nineveh, that was on the threshold of being destroyed. You see how unbalanced, how out of proportion, the attitude of man is toward this world.

He is far more concerned about those things which benefit him directly, the things that this world produces, than he is about his fellow man

I found this YLT translation very interesting.

Jon 4:10  And Jehovah saith, `Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for which thou didst not labour, neither didst thou nourish it, which a son of a night was, and a son of a night perished

Being that we are called sons of light...the things of the world are sons of darkness, like grass ....here today gone tommorrow...this is very poetic.

Here at the end of Jonah we are back to almost the same position we were in at the end of chapter one:

the outsiders(the sailors and now the city and its king)  had turned to God despite the example they had from a follower of God and they  understood and obeyed God better than the prophet did.

And the prophet is once again isolated by his own attitudes and actions, and his only chance out of his isolation is turning back and talking with God. It is time for the insiders to come in too.

The storm,  the great fish, the gourd and the worm and scorching sun may all seem at first to be just God giving Jonah a taste of his own medicine, but I think that is only a part of it.

There is something else going on in these last verses. God is calling out to Jonah, asking him to end his isolation and come home.

There is a interplay play of selfishness/selfrighteousness going on in all of us sometimes and we need to constanly pray that God will keep us on the straight and narrow.......for like Jonah and Elijah we are all men who are subject to like passions

beloved



Well said Dr. Carol  :)


Marques
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2008, 07:33:44 PM »

Thanks to all who replied, Amrhrasach you are on the right track;

Joe, would some of this be representative of man's pride, sorrow, and injustice toward God throughout life, a volatile living pattern to man?  Yet, God is continually showing his pity, longsuffering (patience), and justice toward man?  All with the intent of removing man's self centeredness and instilling a need for God's redemption?

Surely I'm just too far off the mark.  But nonetheless, my first thoughts.

A.

Just when things seem to be going MY way, I am beaten down again.
A very repetitive pattern in the lives of those whom God loves and whom he loves he chastises.

Antaiwan

Hi Antaiwan,

We are beaten down especially when we focus on ourselves rather than God and our Brothers and Sisters, whether they be in agreement with us or are in a church or totally in the world they all are our brethren.



The gourd really represents this world, the things of this world which God brings to man without any preparation on man's part. that bring comfort to man, We receive comfort from the things of this earth. We receive comfort from the plants and the food, the weather, the organic matter that we use to build our things.


Yes Beloved!

Just like the Garden of Eden and the church, gifts from God but with a worm/serpent/devil to tempt us into defiling them with our carnal, selfish nature. You raise many valid points in your responses.



Man by nature is more concerned about this earth than he is about his fellow man. We see this today as man gets very uptight when Panda or baby seals are threatened but do you see them organizing any world campaigns and selling tee shirts of protest when the Rowandans or other folks are being slaughtered. Cut down some trees or kill some spotted owls...watch out. This creation is what is important to them. And this is what pains them.


Exactly! More moral outrage over someone's "carbon footprint" than all the innocent lives lost to abortion!


And the prophet is once again isolated by his own attitudes and actions, and his only chance out of his isolation is turning back and talking with God. It is time for the insiders to come in too.

There is a interplay play of selfishness/selfrighteousness going on in all of us sometimes and we need to constanly pray that God will keep us on the straight and narrow.......for like Jonah and Elijah we are all men who are subject to like passions


As there was with "The Sons Of Thunder (James and John) who Jesus rebuked when they wanted to rain fire down on the Samaritans that did not welcome them into their village.
   
Luk 9:51  And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
 
Luk 9:52  And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
 
Luk 9:53  And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
 
Luk 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did?
 
Luk 9:55  But he turned and rebuked them and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
 
Luk 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Carol, you are so right, there is a lot to consider here.

Peace,

Joe






 
Logged

Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2008, 08:01:02 PM »

I think you will appreciate this Joe  in Luke 11 and Matthew 12 Jesus himself revives the story of Jonah and applies it to his life and to his generation.

In these two passages Jesus denounces the people who are seeking a sign and saying to only sign that will be given to them is the sign of Jonah, ....is it being in the belly of the fish or ....that the foreigners and outsiders repented at the word while they, the current insiders, were not repenting.

According to Jesus, the foreigners and outsiders who had repented would rise in judgment against those in the current generation who were demanding a sign and rejecting it when they had it.

In Matthew the sign of Jonah does point to the belly of the fish  In Matthew Jesus likens his own death and resurrection to the time Jonah spent dead for all practical purposed and the message he delivered afterwards, which was accepted with repentance.

The other thing this brings up for me is the "sign of the fish" that a lot of Christians have on their car bumpers do you know the origins and symbolism of a fish?   It is not what you think...yep... pagan....the miter hat, not eating fish on fridays...yep they all has pagan roots.  No wonder God warns us about graven images...they are all twisted pagan images.

beloved
Logged

Amrhrasach

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2008, 09:54:15 PM »

Beloved, your responses on this topic are deep, interesting, and of high quality.  I, for one, appreciate them. 

A.

ps.  how interesting the bumper stickers and the symbolism.  I see them all the time where I live.  It never occured to me.
Logged

aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2008, 01:03:36 AM »


Thank You All,

Joe, Amrhrasach, Antiawan, beloved, Marques.

This is real food for me, it is interesting that as many times as i have read these passages in the Bible this is
the very first time i understand in a deeper sense. When one has eyes to see and ears to hear The Word; It
Shouts Out Softly and Clearly ever more. I am ever so Thankful that God Is In Total Control At All Times And
Out Of Time Also.


What a Treasure Trove I have found Today:

george.

Thanks to all who replied, Amrhrasach you are on the right track;

Joe, would some of this be representative of man's pride, sorrow, and injustice toward God throughout life, a volatile living pattern to man?  Yet, God is continually showing his pity, longsuffering (patience), and justice toward man?  All with the intent of removing man's self centeredness and instilling a need for God's redemption?

Surely I'm just too far off the mark.  But nonetheless, my first thoughts.

A.

Just when things seem to be going MY way, I am beaten down again.
A very repetitive pattern in the lives of those whom God loves and whom he loves he chastises.

Antaiwan

Hi Antaiwan,

We are beaten down especially when we focus on ourselves rather than God and our Brothers and Sisters, whether they be in agreement with us or are in a church or totally in the world they all are our brethren.



The gourd really represents this world, the things of this world which God brings to man without any preparation on man's part. that bring comfort to man, We receive comfort from the things of this earth. We receive comfort from the plants and the food, the weather, the organic matter that we use to build our things.


Yes Beloved!

Just like the Garden of Eden and the church, gifts from God but with a worm/serpent/devil to tempt us into defiling them with our carnal, selfish nature. You raise many valid points in your responses.



Man by nature is more concerned about this earth than he is about his fellow man. We see this today as man gets very uptight when Panda or baby seals are threatened but do you see them organizing any world campaigns and selling tee shirts of protest when the Rowandans or other folks are being slaughtered. Cut down some trees or kill some spotted owls...watch out. This creation is what is important to them. And this is what pains them.


Exactly! More moral outrage over someone's "carbon footprint" than all the innocent lives lost to abortion!


And the prophet is once again isolated by his own attitudes and actions, and his only chance out of his isolation is turning back and talking with God. It is time for the insiders to come in too.

There is a interplay play of selfishness/selfrighteousness going on in all of us sometimes and we need to constanly pray that God will keep us on the straight and narrow.......for like Jonah and Elijah we are all men who are subject to like passions


As there was with "The Sons Of Thunder (James and John) who Jesus rebuked when they wanted to rain fire down on the Samaritans that did not welcome them into their village.
  
Luk 9:51  And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
 
Luk 9:52  And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
 
Luk 9:53  And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
 
Luk 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did?
 
Luk 9:55  But he turned and rebuked them and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
 
Luk 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Carol, you are so right, there is a lot to consider here.

Peace,

Joe






 
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2008, 04:34:18 AM »

Hi Carol

This stood out for me quote : Beloved
Quote
The gourd really represents this world, the things of this world ....

The second witness I found is that this word gourd is used only once in the singular as in the book of Jonah and in the plural it is referenced in 2 Kings 4 : 39 where it takes on another meaning that brings forward death that is in it with combination to other things of the world.

First the meaning as in 2 Kings is Strongs 6498 from the same as 6497: the wild cucumber (from splitting open to shed its seeds)  6497 to burst: only used as an architect term of an ornament similar to 6498.

2 Kings 4 : 38 Elisha returned to Gilgal and there was a famine in that region. While the company of the prophets was meeting with him, he said to his servant, "Put on the large pot and cook some stew for these men." 39 One of them went out into the fields to gather herbs and found a wild vine. He gathered some of its gourds and filled the fold of his cloak. When he returned, he cut them up into the pot of stew, though no one knew what they were. The stew was poured out for the men, but as they began to eat it, they cried out, "O man of God, there is DEATH IN THE POT!"

The Strong's meaning for this word Gourd in the book of Jonah is 7021 from 7006  the gourd as NAUSEOUS and 7006 to vomit, spue. Jonah took delight in what is nauseous worldly and vomit to God when he delighted in the shade of the world and the comfort it gave to him.

When the gourd is mixed into a stew with other ingredients, as in our times there are many things to disguise the presence of false doctrines yet the prophets will still detect the yeast of the Pharisee and spit it out. Elisha told his servants to add flour and then the mix became edible. Flour being the bread of life. Christ being the vital ingredient of life not death of light not darkness equipping his Elect to endure this world of vomit and false deadly doctrines, beliefs and errors.

Arc
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 04:36:06 AM by Arcturus »
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2008, 12:31:25 PM »

I thought I would add a bit more to the mix here, there have been so many interesting comments and insights! We can all agree that the Lord has made many provisions for His people and has only required obedience in return, when instead of obeying we use human reasoning or carnal feelings to make decisions we are left wide open to assaults and destruction by the worm/serpent/devil.

We saw it in the Garden, we saw it east of Ninevah with Jonah and we see it in the churches virtually throughout her history, not only "out there" somewhere but even here in our own little oasis, when intemperence reigns and patience gives way to impatience we experience the results of Satan's influence and the fruits of his spirit, just the opposite of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

We have been given a spiritual manna, the Word of the scriptures to sustain and nourish us, do we seek above all else to obey the wisdom we have been so generously provided or are we like the nation of Israel in the wilderness (as well as Jonah under his gourd)? Are we hoarding God's mercy for ourselves only or are we filled with the joy that comes from the realization that God's mercy is for all men? Friends and enemies alike.


 Exodus 16

 1And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.

 2And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:

 3And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

 4Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

 5And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

 6And Moses and Aaron said unto all the children of Israel, At even, then ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the land of Egypt:

 7And in the morning, then ye shall see the glory of the LORD; for that he heareth your murmurings against the LORD: and what are we, that ye murmur against us?

 8And Moses said, This shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD.

 9And Moses spake unto Aaron, Say unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, Come near before the LORD: for he hath heard your murmurings.

 10And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

 11And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

 12I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God.

 13And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.

 14And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.

 15And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.

 16This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.

 17And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.

 18And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.

 19And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.

 20Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

 21And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.

 22And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.

 23And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

 24And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

 25And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

 26Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

 27And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

 28And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

 29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

 30So the people rested on the seventh day.

 31And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

 32And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations; that they may see the bread wherewith I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.

 33And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations.

 34As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.

 35And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.

 36Now an omer is the tenth part of an ephah.

 Peace,

 Joe
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2008, 02:04:24 PM »

I think you will appreciate this Joe  in Luke 11 and Matthew 12 Jesus himself revives the story of Jonah and applies it to his life and to his generation.

In these two passages Jesus denounces the people who are seeking a sign and saying to only sign that will be given to them is the sign of Jonah, ....is it being in the belly of the fish or ....that the foreigners and outsiders repented at the word while they, the current insiders, were not repenting.

According to Jesus, the foreigners and outsiders who had repented would rise in judgment against those in the current generation who were demanding a sign and rejecting it when they had it.

In Matthew the sign of Jonah does point to the belly of the fish  In Matthew Jesus likens his own death and resurrection to the time Jonah spent dead for all practical purposed and the message he delivered afterwards, which was accepted with repentance.

The other thing this brings up for me is the "sign of the fish" that a lot of Christians have on their car bumpers do you know the origins and symbolism of a fish?   It is not what you think...yep... pagan....the miter hat, not eating fish on fridays...yep they all has pagan roots.  No wonder God warns us about graven images...they are all twisted pagan images.

beloved


Yes Carol, great observation!

Another thing both Jesus and Jonas shared was the capacity to sleep through a very rough storm at sea that nearly scared everyone else to death;


Jon 1:4  But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.
 
Jon 1:5  Then the mariners were afraid and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them. But Jonah was gone down into the sides of the ship; and he lay and was fast asleep.
 
Mat 8:23  And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him,
 
Mat 8:24  And behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
 
Mat 8:25  And his disciples came to him and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

Actually there is another parallel/type/shadow too; Jonah knew that it was because of his disobedience that the storm was raging on that boat, he did not seem to deny accountability, so why didn't he just jump into the sea? Why was he asking the others to throw him overboard? Did he have to be submerged at the hands of other men? I suppose the same question could be asked about Jesus, why did He not just die at His own hand or even of old age? Death is death isn't it? What could be the significance? Could it be that the people doing the throwing (killing) were judging themselves as well as all of humanity by their action(s)?

We can see that at first the men who were with Jonah tried to save him and themselves through their own power (rowing harder) we also know that when Jesus told His disciples He was to die Peter rebuked Him and the Lord looked at Peter and commanded Satan "Get thee behind me!"


Jon 1:12  And he said unto them, Take me up and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.
 
Jon 1:13  Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought and was tempestuous against them.
 
Jon 1:14  Wherefore they cried unto the LORD and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.
 
Jon 1:15  So they took up Jonah and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
 
Mar 8:31  And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things and be rejected of the elders and of the chief priests and scribes and be killed and after three days rise again.
 
Mar 8:32  And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him and began to rebuke him.
 
Mar 8:33  But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me Satan: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
 
Mar 9:31  For he taught his disciples and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Luk 9:44  Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.

There is so much going on in these 4 short chapters by a minor prophet.......

Peace,

Joe
Logged

Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2008, 03:10:22 PM »

Not to go off topic but there is a lot of word play in the book

If you look at the word Fish..at first it is masculine in 1:17 and then it is feminine in 2;1 and then masculine in 2:10...

Since God "prepared" the great fish....he must have grown a big one so that a man could be swallowed. It is possible...take a peak in the mouth in this pic
 
http://www.sharkattacks.com/images/amos/rightf1.jpg     

http://www.sharkattacks.com/prehistoric.htm       scroll down to see man sittting in mouth                     

Did Jonah die inside the fish and then God revived him...like Lazarus or was he alive in there for three days and three nights...yuk

No wonder the Fish God Nation paid attention when Jonah spoke...him being totally bleached and scarred by by the stomach acid....man the east wind must have smarted.

In Chapter 2 some say that the psalm 116 was inserted by a transcriber..psalm 116 is a psalm of Thanksgiving...and that it was appropriate here..between 2;1 and 2:10.

I think it came to Jonah mind when he woke up...just before he vomited out into salt water....he must have been shot out like  cannon.

Nineveh had to be impressive then if it took three days to walk through, the old Las Vegas in the dessert, prostitution, drinking, idol worship etc.

Jonah's response to God about him not destroying Nineveh could be like today's Christians saying...its not fair, we were good and did good works and miracles, these Hindu, Muslims and atheists , Mormons (insert favorite denomination) etc all acted detestably... it all reminds me of the grumpy vineyard workers getting their paychecks.     It is another "US and THEM"" thing. 

Exo 33:19  And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

beloved
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 05:00:19 PM by Beloved »
Logged

indianabob

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2008, 02:27:54 AM »

Folks,

Isn't it interesting how beneficial the conversation can be when the spirit of Christ is operating in everyone.
Thank you each and everyone for your contribution.

Dr. Carol,
A light hearted side comment regarding the "fish" if you please.

Since the purpose was to change Jonah's mind about serving God and also to get Jonah to Nineveh in one piece,  could it be that the journey in the "fish" or a swimming mammal perhaps was a little more comfortable yet traumatic enough to make the point?  Since Jonah needed air, then an air breathing "fish" would seem more appropriate.  Also large fish may live off of body fat when the feeding is sparse and perhaps the throat cavity wasn't as acidic as would otherwise be the case.  Then again since the Bible says that God "prepared" a fish we could presume that this particular fish was not a standard species.

I mention this because God usually can get our attention without torturing us beyond what is necessary and to me just being inside an animal would get my undivided attention for quite a while.  I mean what is a person expected to do when you have just got to scratch an itch.   ???

Just my old mind wandering, thanks for your attention.  Keep up the good commentary.

Indiana Bob
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2008, 09:24:55 AM »


Not to go off topic but there is a lot of word play in the book


Hi Carol,

Going off topic is one of the things we do very well here.  ;)

I couldn't agree more that there is much word play and deeper meanings within this relatively short book. Perhaps we could look at Jonah's experience once he is coughed up by the fish as those who rise in the 2nd resurrection to learn righteousness and godly mercy.

Jonah purposely disobeyed God and had a hard heart toward Nineveh, the Lord set about to correct that with him and Jonah did not like it one bit.


Jon 4:8  And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted and wished in himself to die and said, It is better for me to die than to live.

Could that sentiment be a type/shadow of what we read in Revelation?

Rev 9:6  And in those days shall men seek death and shall not find it; and shall desire to die and death shall flee from them.


Isn't it interesting how beneficial the conversation can be when the spirit of Christ is operating in everyone.
Thank you each and everyone for your contribution.



Thank you Bob for that kind and generous comment!


I mention this because God usually can get our attention without torturing us beyond what is necessary and to me just being inside an animal would get my undivided attention for quite a while.  I mean what is a person expected to do when you have just got to scratch an itch.   ???


Amen to that Brother, no doubt God has a very creative mind when He desires to grab one's attention.

Just ask Saul/Paul....

Peace,

Joe
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2008, 07:57:52 PM »

Earlier in the thread I had written of this pattern that with many seemingly very good things God has placed a worm/serpent/devil right there to inspire degradation.

Have you ever contemplated this verse and it's implications?


Joh 6:70  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil?

Was the devil eradicated by the suicide of Judas or has his role in the church even grown? Interestingly enough Judas of course was the treasurer or keeper of the purse, money does seem to hold a very high priority in many churches.

Another interesting parallel between the Book of Jonah and the life and ministry of Jesus is this (although I do not have a real definitive answer it seems that many times in scripture drawing lots often was not an especially good thing);


Jon 1:7  And they said every one to his fellow, Come and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots and the lot fell upon Jonah.
 
Act 1:26  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

We read about Peter and the disciples praying about the matter of replacing Judas but we never read that the Lord answered this prayer or directed them to cast lots, was this office of the 12th apostle actually reserved (by God) for someone other than Matthias?

He (Matthias) was never mentioned in scripture again after this.....

Peace,

Joe
Logged

indianabob

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2008, 03:38:56 AM »

Joe,

If we include verse 24 it seems plausible that the Apostles were seeking God's preference in the matter of choosing one of two alternates.  So isn't it possible that God manipulated the casting of lots in this instance?
 

"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. " (Acts 1:24-26)
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jonah's Gourd
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2008, 08:26:19 AM »

Hi Bob,

Yes, of course that is worthy of consideration but who determined which two to begin with and for me the absence of any directive from God gives me pause as to the validity of their choice(s).

I find it interesting that the risen Christ was with them for 40 days and He did not choose anyone to fill the vacancy left by Judas(Satan). It appears rather obvious that within the church Satan's influence has been increasing through the years.

As I said previously I am not making any definitive statement on this only that it is evident that God allows or even directs Satan to be right there to tempt, torment, degrade and foil those (especially) who have been called to seek and know the Lord on a deeper level.

Paul too experienced this not only externally but internally as well;


2Co 12:7  And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Bob I appreciate your interest and comments.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe

« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 10:09:31 AM by hillsbororiver »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.086 seconds with 26 queries.