Meeting with a pastor- what would you do

[Nikoa]

It's almost a year since coming to BT and wow what an emotional ride it's been.  My wife is in agreement with the truths learned at BT but she can't see just not going to church.  We have stop going to a very large church in Seattle and now go to a small church that has a young (very sharp and studied) pastor that doesn't beg for money.  I actually really enjoy him and his family.  We got to know them a bit better when they invited us over for dinner and I really believe he loves truth.  Long story even longer I pulled him aside after service and shared with him my testimony about the subject of hell and how I was so very tormented for so long with this belief system and how I had found new understanding.  I communicated this in a way that came across in a humble way and was wanting his thoughts and then handed him Ray's papers written to Hagee and Kennedy.  He said that he would make time to look through them and get back to me.  Well about a month went by and nothing so I emailed him and he made some excuses why he didn't have time to go through it and asked me if I could just give him the bottom line.  I conveyed how important it was to me and asked him to please go through it when he had time.  Well a month later I still haven't heard back. (Oh, I also emailed him over the link to Jason's/Sozo youtube hell vids thinking at least he could make time to just watch).  I just found out that my wife had invited the pastor and his family over for dinner tomorrow night so I'm sure we will be doing some talking.  Finally...what would you do in this situation?   I have a heart for truth and have absolutely no interest in debate and especially with someone like this who knows scriptures as well as he does.  What verses could I give him that he would really have to consider and think about?  Should I print out every scripture on how all are saved?  I love you guys and would much appreciate your responses.

[Craig]

I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect your meeting will go over like a lead balloon.

Craig

[mharrell08]

It's almost a year since coming to BT and wow what an emotional ride it's been.  My wife is in agreement with the truths learned at BT but she can't see just not going to church.  We have stop going to a very large church in Seattle and now go to a small church that has a young (very sharp and studied) pastor that doesn't beg for money.  I actually really enjoy him and his family.  We got to know them a bit better when they invited us over for dinner and I really believe he loves truth.  Long story even longer I pulled him aside after service and shared with him my testimony about the subject of hell and how I was so very tormented for so long with this belief system and how I had found new understanding.  I communicated this in a way that came across in a humble way and was wanting his thoughts and then handed him Ray's papers written to Hagee and Kennedy.  He said that he would make time to look through them and get back to me.  Well about a month went by and nothing so I emailed him and he made some excuses why he didn't have time to go through it and asked me if I could just give him the bottom line.  I conveyed how important it was to me and asked him to please go through it when he had time.  Well a month later I still haven't heard back. (Oh, I also emailed him over the link to Jason's/Sozo youtube hell vids thinking at least he could make time to just watch).  I just found out that my wife had invited the pastor and his family over for dinner tomorrow night so I'm sure we will be doing some talking.  Finally...what would you do in this situation?   I have a heart for truth and have absolutely no interest in debate and especially with someone like this who knows scriptures as well as he does.  What verses could I give him that he would really have to consider and think about?  Should I print out every scripture on how all are saved?  I love you guys and would much appreciate your responses.

Hello Chad,

Yes, many here will testify of being in similar circumstances with members of their church, friends, and family.

I had a family friend request information from me regarding my beliefs and what site and who I was fellow shipping with. I gave him the link to BT as well as a direct link to the 'Fools, Hypocrites, Snakes' paper. I have not heard back from him and don't really expect to either. I believe your pastor has the same attitude as my friend. It's true that my friend asked first and you sought your pastor out, but they both do not have an ear for the truth. If your pastor did, he would have been blowing your inbox up, calling you often, and just wanting to talk to you as much as you want to talk to him about these spiritual truths. That's usually the normal reaction from what I've read from others experiences.

He does not want to hear the truth and if you push him, it may end in an argument or dispute. Not to say it will get nasty (even though at times it can), but as they say: You may win the argument, but you'll lose the sale.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Nikoa]

It's hard for me to believe that people don't want the truth or even hate it.  Could it be that he can't believe it?  His eyes are blinded?   What great news we have!  Why would someone not get it with so many facts?  I guess if he was to embrace this truth he would lose his church, relationships and pretty much everything. 

[Marlene]

Chad, I too have been going through the same thing as you. We, had been going to a church and the pastor has said things that make me feel like he would believe truth. Right before preaching tithe one Sunday he turned around to face the wall and said,"God I hate to do this". My family all heard this.

Then one Sunday he said,"He was getting emails from people to quite preaching about the family unit.

Then he got email from the corporate headquarters of the church he preached at telling him they were going to have to watch in time to come what they preached or they could loose there tax except. He said" they may fire me or I might be taken out in hand cuffs." He wants to preach the word of God no matter what. He has always been very nice to me. Read a couple of books for me. But, I have never asked him to read Ray's website. But, I still wonder if I
should not have.

But, I am like Craig, we might not be ready for what they dish out. Also, I believe that he is able to lead us to truths. Didn't Christ lead you out. Now, last week a Lady from the church called because they were missing us. I am praying to decide, what is best. He has alot to give up. He is not rich. But, he has a home , income and he believes he is called of God. He made a statment when we first started going there he would go where God led him.

Well, I use to sing at churches all the time. But, they were small ones. This church is large. I said, God I can't sing in a large church. But, it turned out God didn't even want me in church. He showed me that singing had become an Idol of my heart. So, now I sing to him from my heart.

So, I believe like Ray there is a cause for everything we do. There is a cost for obeying God and that is giving Idol of the heart up. I can say giving up there jobs would be very hard, but if they did I believe God provides. But, he would be a 47 year old man going out to try and provide for his family.

Not, sure anyting I could say will help you. But, I do know it is not something we can force. But, it is up to you. If, you feel God is leading you to do it, that is your decision to make.  But, only God is able to lead anyone to truth. I do think god does use people. He used Ray that is for sure. When, we first learn the truth we want to share it with the world.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Nikoa]

Sometimes I read on this forum that we shouldn't share what we know and that if it's God's will then He will lead them out.  How would he lead them out if it wasn't for someone who spoke the truth?  That's what Ray did by creating this site.  Isn't that why money is being spent to keep BT close to the top of the search engines?  This is a way of reaching out with the truth right?  Maybe I did make the wrong move bringing this up to the pastor only time will tell.  I hear this guy speak other truths that would have him kicked out of larger churches and having a small bit of time with him I just felt comfortable letting my guard down.  I have noticed my self getting very upset with people who hold the idea of hell true and it has really began to get to me making it hard for me to keep quiet.   Maybe I will steer our conversation in other directions....like tithes or free will...just kidding.  How about those Seahawks?

[Dennis Vogel]

Bringing it up once is okay. Twice a judgment call. Third time, casting pearls... IMO.

Dennis

[Richard D]

Hello Chad.

As I read your story I thought to myself would not a pastor want to know as much truth as he can?  You said he's well versed in scriptures. I believe he has already read it but its more of a nightmare for him to deal with because he'll need to also deal with many others things in the faith as well.

My advise to you my brother is this, when he comes over for dinner ask nonchalantly if he had found the time to read the papers you gave him, if he says yes great see what he thinks about it but if he says no, enjoy your dinner and let it go because its up to God to open ones eyes.

I'll pray that the papers you have given him was not in vain but if it is, remember he is still a human being who God will deal with at a later time. It's not in man to direct his on footsteps. 


God bless.                                In God's Love. Richard.

[Nikoa]

Thanks Richard.  I'm learning.

[Ninny]

Chad,
This is all great advice. Remember that if you have planted a seed just leave it there and God will take care of the rest. I remember Ray writing that you shouldn't argue with your pastor or even talk about it if you are not 100% prepared because you  won't win an argument. Although it sounds as though you really just want to share what you've learned, just really take it slow. Develop your relationship with him for awhile and see.

I know a pastor who would totally pulverize me in such a conversation and I have know him for 11 years! He just wouldn't see it! I am speaking from experience here. I have told him things before that don't sit right with him and he is like, "well, I just don't know where you're coming from." But you know one day I may bring this up, I suspect I'll have to if God directs me to do that. I would pray a lot before moving though.
This friend of mine has been close to my family in many things, he recently sat with us all day in Children's Hospital in Birmingham, AL  while my 2 year old grand son had a brain tumor removed. He was a help to my son and his wife and to my husband and it was a comfort knowing he was there. We haven't been to his church in 3 years! Some friends you have to walk softly around when it comes to long-held beliefs. Just know that when God opens the door you will be able to step through it!

Take heart and know that it's all in God's time!
Kathy

[hillsbororiver]

Sometimes I read on this forum that we shouldn't share what we know and that if it's God's will then He will lead them out.  How would he lead them out if it wasn't for someone who spoke the truth?
 

Hi Nikoa,

Sorry but I must have missed all the replies that stated we should not share with others, what I have seen though is the following verse being quoted often when this topic presents itself....

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

We are admonished to be ready when asked! If the Lord is dragging someone to His truths He will open their eyes and ears as well as provide a conduit to provide this wisdom to them, many of us here have had the experience of rejection from those we wish to enlighten, unless the Lord is leading it we become a source of anxiety to those we are attempting to teach.

My advise to you my brother is this, when he comes over for dinner ask nonchalantly if he had found the time to read the papers you gave him, if he says yes great see what he thinks about it but if he says no, enjoy your dinner and let it go because its up to God to open ones eyes.



I would say that Richard provided excellent advice here.

Peace,

Joe

[David]

Whatever happens, I hope your expereince is better than mine was. My Pastor hasn't spoken to me since and refers to me as a son of satan at any given opportunity when talking to poeple that I know.

[aqrinc]

Wow Roger,

I think i detected humor in that reply  .

Nikoa,

I echo Roger, Joe and all the Brethren who counsel you let it be until or unless your pastor reads and asks you
about the truths you provided to him.

Be confident that: He who has begun a good work in your pastor will not fail to complete it.

Phi_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until
the day of Jesus Christ:

Rest in The Lord Brother,

george.

[indianabob]

Dear Chad, (Nikoa)

This is Indiana Bob and I would like to tease you just a little bit.   
This will be friendly and compassionate yet disturbing in a way.

This pastor as many others, is a really nice fellow and you and your wife like him and appreciate him for the work that he is already doing, right?
Then why would you want to ruin his life, drive away his friends and cost him his job that he loves?  Why would you or I want to bring hatred and anger into his presently peaceful, fulfilling life?  I am sure that your answer will be that you do not wish him any trouble.  To the contrary you wish him only joy and success with his responsibilities as pastor of the church you are both attending.  Since that is your true motivation and since you have carefully read all the suggestions and personal experiences that others on the forum have offered, please consider prayerfully the drastic action you are about to take.

Only God has the authority to call any person and he does not delegate that authority to any of the "little ones" such as me and you.  We were dragged into the understanding of the truth and are finding it quite difficult to live with.  However, we respect that God can do as He wills with us and we know that even that respect was a gift from God.

We are learning that we will possibly lose most of our friends and even our relatives due to their lack of understanding.  We are with this forum because it is so difficult to find someone to talk with candidly and honestly in our home area or at work etc.  With this in mind then please consider what you would be asking your pastor to give up; his whole church.  Perhaps 100 families and the relationships that he and his wife and any of their children have built up over the years of his pastorship. I think you will recognize as I do that it would be giving up a lot and would mean finding a new job in another field.

So, as I said at the top, this was going to be disturbing and I imagine that I sound pretty mean spirited at this point so I hope you will forgive me for having been overly direct while trying to drive home my point.

We cannot call others, we cannot determine when others have been called and are ready to learn more, we can only be a light and be an example and be ready when our light becomes attractive to another person in such a manner that they recognize the source of that light and seek a relationship.

When a person is called of God and has an earnest of God's holy spirit we who also have that spirit immediately recognize it.  It may be shining dimly at first and would be hard to recognize until a believer has had more experience.  It is like being in a foreign country and hearing our native language spoken in a crowd.  We can recognize it quite easily.

When the language is that of our Lord Jesus, we sheep pay attention; we know our masters voice.  So, I pray that you will be content with the seed that you have planted and patiently wait until God calls the pastor and Jesus works with him at the correct time in his life.  Meanwhile enjoy the fellowship as long as you can remain faithful to what God has given you.

Finally, please allow me to welcome you to the family and please feel free to critique my comments here or by private message if I need correction.

Kindly, old Indiana Bob

[Linny]

Wow, Indiana Bob, that was truth. If we plant a seed, which you did Chad, and nothing happens, then the ground was not fertile for it. Leave it alone.

Joe is also right, we don't say here that you aren't supposed to share. Only that you share with God's leading. It will be RARE that He leads as there aren't that many called to know these truths.

In my experience, MOST the time I share when asked a question that I cannot answer unless I reveal the truth I know. Only one time have I been called to speak without the question. And then, I simply asked my friend if she had any church doctrine that was bothering her and she quickly replied that going to heaven immediately when there is but one day of judgement, and the rapture bothered her.

Wallah, I had my answer! She WAS ready!

IMO, if you want to keep this relationship, say nothing unless he asks you a question....

Lin

[Nikoa]

GREAT Stuff.  Thank you everyone that has replied.  Indiana Bob that was a new way of looking at the situation which I really appreciate.  I'm only a year into this journey so no doubt I can use what I have learned here and apply it in the future.

[Stevernator]

I think this transcript may be helpful.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html

SEVEN [7] FOUNDATIONAL SCRIPTURES

Now I going to give you 7 Scriptures that talks about really important things and I have several that eludes to the salvation of the human race.  Because what is more important than that?  What's more important to a human being than to think that God, since He brought us into existence, we will always be in existence.  Even when we die He is going to bring us back.  If He brought us here in the first place, then He can bring us back.  This is not hard, not for God.

[1]  1 John 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

I never forgot that Scripture.  First time I saw that I memorized it and I never forgot it.  I never had to look it up again, I knew where it was...1 John 4:14.  And also 1 John 4:8 "...for God is love."  Remember these.

[2]  1 Tim 2:4  God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You're got to believe that.  Maybe you should cut these out and stick them in your Bible or something.

[3]  1 Tim 4:10  For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living GOD, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

Phil 2:13  For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Do you see free will in there any place?  Who is it that brings about what is your will and what you will do?  GOD!

[4]  2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is...NOT WILLING that ANY should perish (well how is He going to keep them from perishing?...), but that all should come to repentance.

Here is a negative thought - "not willing."  Now this is the will of God and this is important.  God's will is that no one should perish... no one, not Adolf Hitler, not Osama Bin Laden, no one.  But they all have to repent. 
You say, ' well they're already dead Ray.'  That's right, but they are coming back in judgment and they have to repent.  Why?  Because God does not want them to perish.

Now we are going to see what theologians do with these verses and what you can't ever do with these verse.  Because this is Truth, God does not will - He's not willing - He does not want - He has no such desire - He takes no pleasure in any perishing.  But He is going to have them all repent.

[5]  Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning (speaking of God), and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure:

What an important verse.  Now do you believe it?  Can you believe it and will you continue to believe it?  If there is anything in God's Word where He says, this is what I want - this is what I desire - this is one of My pleasures - this is one of the things I'm going to bring about... will it have to be brought about?  That's what God says, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure."  I WILL do it.  I mean you can bring in more Scripture, like the Lord's prayer.

Luke 11:2  ...Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will BE done, as in heaven, so in earth.

"THY WILL BE DONE" see, no ifs ands or maybes.  So when you have these people who say, 'well yeah, God kind of wishes that things would be better, they just are not.'  Nonsense.

[6]  1 John 4:8  He that loves not knows not God (why?...); for God is love.
Very profound statement, it's the Truth and you've got to believe it. 

[7]  1 Cor 13:8 Love NEVER FAILS...

You might kill the person who is doing the loving, but the love still isn't going to fail.  "LOVE NEVER FAILS."


HOW TO GIVE AN ANSWER

Now I said you are going to learn something today and I'm getting to it.  We've partly got to it, but not completely.  So I just read you 7 profound Scriptures;
God is not willing that any should perish... God will is that all should be saved... God has commissioned His Son to be Savior of the world... God is love... love never fails... God will do all of His pleasure...
We read those Scriptures, right.  Now here is the thing, when somebody tries to show you, 'oh yeah He has a desire that all people will be saved.  He has the desire.  It's just that it won't happen.'  Of course the main reason is because He gave man free will and they will not all freely choose Him.  So God will have to torture them for all eternity.  Don't get sucked into that. 

I mean maybe when you become really mature in the Scriptures you can allow them to go there and talk to them.  But I'm telling you right here today, don't get sucked into those arguments.  These ministers of the world... when people who have a fairly good education in the Scriptures, they will eat you for lunch. 

I have people all day long that send me emails and say, 'Ray I'm in trouble, I went to my minister and told him he was a stupid SOB and the Scriptures said this.  Well he said that and now I'm in trouble.  I'm going to see him again tomorrow and I've got to know how to answer him Ray.' 
Well I say you've made your bed, now sleep in it.  Sometimes I'll give them a little information.  But a lot of times I say, no, I am not going to teach you how to make a fool out of your minister.  Your minister is going to make a fool out of you, because your attitude is wrong.  God doesn't teach us these Truths so we can go out and make fools out of people. 

So here's what you do and here's what you think, if you are talking to someone this is what you say. 
If you have already established that you believe these 7 verses that I gave you.
 
Now if they say something like, 'yeah but what about this over here?' 
You say, 'wait a minute, I just read you Scriptures that made a profound statement and one of them was that God DOES NOT lie.  Now does any Scripture state that God DOES lie?'

Don't let them suck you into their train of thinking.  You take control.  Say, 'Is there a Scripture that says, God does lie?  Is there?  Well is there a Scripture the says God does not lie?  Yes.  Then if all Scripture is true, which one is true?  The Scripture that doesn't exist or the one that does exist?  The one that says God does not lie, is the Truth.' 
Is there a Scripture that says that the Scripture are NOT inspired of God?  Is there such a Scripture?  No.  Well then don't let anybody take you someplace and quote you something that they say contradicts that Scripture.  Don't go there.
You can say, 'look I believe this Scriptures.  Now do you have one that says the Scriptures are NOT inspired of God?  Do you have a verse like that?  No.  Well forget it, our argument is over.' 

Is there a Scripture that says God Word is NOT true?  If they want to take you some place that contradicts one of those 7 Scripture, which are true, then there can't be a Scripture that says one of those Scriptures is not true.  If there is no such Scripture and they say, 'yeah but this one...' 
Just say, 'I understand that you do not understand that Scripture.  But it does not contradict the Scripture that says God's Word is Truth.  Regardless of what you think it implies or might mean or this or that.  It does not say that God's Word is not Truth does it?  No.  Well then do we have a Scripture that says God Word is Truth?  Yes.  Then you can't have a Scripture that contradicts that.'

See you can't have a Scripture that suggests sometimes under certain circumstances, that there are times or places where God's Word is not true.  No, so don't go there. 

You can say, 'Is there a Scripture that God does NOT wish - care - please - want to - desire - wishes or any word that you want to say, that all men be saved?  Is there a Scripture that says that?  NO.  Well if you can't show me a Scripture that says He doesn't want all men to be saved, then you try to tell me the one that says He does want them saved, is a lie.  Don't you go there with me.  That's the true Scripture.'
 
If he has no Scripture that says God doesn't desire or wish or want or please that all men be saved, it's because there is no such Scripture.  But if he tries to come up with anything that contradicts it... It can't.  Because we have a plain statement. 

Is there a Scripture that says the Son will NOT be the Savior of the world?  God the Father commissioned Jesus Christ in 1 John 4:14 to BE the Savior of the world.  Now is there a Scripture that says God did NOT commission Him or that He will NOT be the Savior of the world?  Is the such a Scripture? 
So then don't let anybody take you somewhere to some Scripture, that they think contradicts this Truth.  Don't go there! 

Say, 'you're dead in the water.  Because I've got a Scripture of Truth and the only way you can tell me that it is not true, is if you contradict it.  If it contradicts, then the Word of God is not true, it is not inspired and God is a liar.  I'm not going there with you.'
 
Do we have a Scripture that says that the Scripture we have just read CAN be broken?  You know we read one that said the Scripture CAN NOT be broken, so do we have one that says, well under certain circumstances it can?  Can God's laws be broken?  Absolutely.  Can the Scripture be broken?  The Bible says no.  So don't try to give me some Scripture where you think, 'well yeah they shall perish.'  God says He is going to save them and it's His will - it's His pleasure, it's His wish - it's a desire - He is going to fulfill all His wishes, all His pleasures, all His desires and He will save them. 
So say, 'don't try to show me a Scripture that contradicts that.  There are no Scriptures that contradict that.'  If they say, 'well it sounds like it.'  You say, 'well it sounds like it because you don't understand the Scripture that you are reading.  You don't even believe the simple ones that I just showed you.'

Is this easy for you now?  Are you getting it?  Does it make sense?  Do you have to be a scholar, a theologian?  Do you have to know Hebrew and Greek to understand what I am telling you?  It's simple.

Do we have a Scripture that in the judgment God will change His mind and will desire that most of humanity will NOT repent and will perish?  Come on, we just read, He is not willing that ANY should perish, but they ALL come to repentance. 
Is there a Scripture that says, He is NOT willing that all come to repentance and He in fact, at judgment will wish and will and desire and perish most of humanity in torture for all eternity?  Do you see what I am saying?  If you believe the Scripture, those 7 Scripture that I gave you.  Now we can expand them, but with just those 7 you can counter anything in the Scripture.  There is no false doctrine that you can't counter with one of those 7 points.  Nothing. 

[Decky]

My experience with my former pastor was interesting to say the least. We've known each other since we were about 9 years old, and practically ran our small church since we were 15. He was and is a very charismatic speaker and I always felt that he had an uncanny lock on bible exegesis. He's invited to speak at churches all over the country and has even written a couple of books. After I left the church awhile back, we basically went our separate ways and didn't communicate often, maybe getting together once a year. Two years ago, we had lunch and he asked me when I'm "coming back to church." It was then when I brought up the subject of God bringing me out of that Babylonian system, and talked about how wrong the church has it with the doctrine of eternal torment. When I said that, it was like cold water was poured on him, and he totally changed the subject. I thought it was very odd, as he could have easily attempted to lay all his biblical knowledge on me in a small debate, but he made no such attempt. I wondered if he deep down has a suspicion of the error of that church tradition, but didn't want to really look into it because he's made quite a comfortable living with his books and speaking engagements, and didn't want his conscience seared. It was reminiscent of a child plugging his ears and shouting at the top of his lungs to drown out the words of someone he didn't want to listen to.

I honestly believe that many pastors are sincere and simply don't know better, but then again, I think that the number of pastors who have suspicions that universal salvation may have validity, but they can't bear the thought of losing their congregation are astronomical. The religious leaders of Jesus day witnessed many miracles, most of all the raising of Lazarus from the dead, but the thought of the people leaving them to follow Jesus is what terrified them and made them even want to kill Lazarus. I've read Ray's letter to Hagee and Kennedy, and cannot understand how these supposed men of God could not be in any way pricked by the volumes of scripture that tear down the eternal hell doctrine. It simply amazes me. But then again, I think I just underestimate the fact that literally NO man can come to Christ unless the Father drags him. One hundred people can read the material on Ray's site and 2 will fall to their knees and say, "I was wrong about hell," and 98 will say, "this guy's a false teacher." That's just how it is.

[Kat]

Hi Decky,

I honestly believe that many pastors are sincere and simply don't know better, but then again, I think that the number of pastors who have suspicions that universal salvation may have validity, but they can't bear the thought of losing their congregation are astronomical.

I agree with what you said.  It is strange to witness somebody hearing the truth, I think it's like a blind man seeing a flash of light.  They know that they saw something, but cannot identify it or understand it.  Sounds like that may be what your pastor friend experienced.

They have it backwards, with the physical world as their reality, this is all 'real' because their senses tell them so and the spiritual the illusion.  When somebody speaks spiritual words to them, maybe for a fleeting moment their spirit recognizes it as truth.  But there is all this physical around them to bring them quickly back to reality and the more they think about it, the more they reasons that it is not possible, if they think about it at all.  Some people seem to be so hardened against the truth that they refuse to consider it for a second, unless of course God pricks their heart.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6131.0.html