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[EKnight]

I was reading some of Ray's responses to questions of the trinity.  He speaks of Christ being conceived by the Holy Spirit.  This got me thinking about Mary's role in the birth of Christ.

Why did God need to have Christ born into this world in the conventional way?  Why couldn't He have created the second Adam as the first Adam?  Would his Apostles and disciples not have believed in Christ had he not been "born"?  Was God trying to show us that Christ was no different than we are (born of the flesh)?

And why Mary?  She was hand-picked by God.  Was there something significant about her as opposed to any other woman at that time? Or was this a random choosing?

Just curious.

Eileen

[David]

Much of the answer to part of your questions depends whether you believe "the dust of the ground" means literally dust on the ground.

[Richard D]

Eileen.

I was born into the Roman Catholic faith, I’m not sure about the first part of your question because I have not read Ray’s writings on the trinity yet but as a Catholic I can tell you there is indeed something very special about Mary.

Mary was born without any sin at all and was perfect from conception and all the days of her life.

Then I read ray’s work and realized all have sinned and all have gone astray and that would have to include Mary as well, although I don’t like to think this way, but it is what it is.

I’m sure Mary was a wonderful lady no doubt about that and the only thing that makes Mary special is that God picked Mary to conceive our Lord and Savior Jesus.

However if I were in the presents of Mary she would indeed have my full respect as the women who gave birth to Christ. 
                                                  In God’s Love. Richard. 

[Beloved]

To fulfill His word

Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We all carry the mitochondrial DNA of Eve. Jesus was to partake of the world of mankind. The Father provided the male zygote.

Mary's and Joespeh's lineage are both important for different reasons

Also it gave "the world" a reason to be skeptical, even in the gospels and especially after,  Mary was accussed of fornication by the jewish religious. Later she was made "Queen" and prayed to. ( All religious slur..your mother wears combat boots)

If Jesus had come from "no where'....then hs connection to Israel would have no substance...he could then be claimed to be Buddah or some other religions leader. 

How do you create a adam...and have any man observe it.??

beloved

 

[Marlene]

Beloved , Such great thoughts given to you by God. My Mother who is the  most moral woman I have ever been around I looked up to her. I always wanted to model my life after heard. I got caught up into sins I never thought I would. But, through them all I see my need for him. Now, when I tell my Mother of the good values she has taught me, she never the less says "That no one knows ones sins of the mind". Yes, unless we share them no one but God knows. I  have seen  her struggle with not being able to forgive my father, who changed. Yesterday, to be exact. Today she is doing better. But, yes Mary was Human  and the Catholic Church worship her. All, the churches are wanting to be united. I however, see the danger of this. We are to be united with Brothers and Sisters who believe the truths of God.

I am so blessed to have people to share those truths with.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Beloved]

Mary and her nuclear genes and her physical family were just where they were suppose to be when Jesus came in the physical.   When the Father created the earth...He had Jesus in mind...and saw down the future...

Don't get too wrapped up in the history....

Php 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The orthodox church is wrapped up in sensations, experiences and feelings, they want money and physical healings....they are carnal and cling to the carnal.

Mary is you...when the Spirit of Christ finally comes into you....he is working on your embryo...he is circumcising your carnal flesh as you die daily ...........Jesus works in you....when you are perfected...you are reborn......you become "Christ like".....Begotten sons of God...no angel can say this...

Like Ray says....Mary is a parable...

beloved

[winner08]

When God said that we should not worship any idols, does this include statues of Mary and even at that, Jesus also??? What about the saints??would praying to these statues be the same as, lets say any other religion who prays to statues such as ,well i don't want to name names. Still would it not be breaking one of God's ten?

[aqrinc]

Beloved,

Thanks for putting my thoughts into the right words, i am amazed that these things are now just
starting to jump into my mind and mouth when needed.

For there is no other Name under Heaven Whereby we Must Be Saved, than The Name Christ Jesus.

Isaiah 42:8:
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11:
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not
give my glory unto another.

Acts 4: 10-12

10-Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom
all of you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him does this man stand here before you whole.

11-This is the stone which was set at nothing of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12-Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby
we must be saved.

george.

To fulfill His word

Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We all carry the mitochondrial DNA of Eve. Jesus was to partake of the world of mankind. The Father provided the male zygote.

Mary's and Joespeh's lineage are both important for different reasons

Also it gave "the world" a reason to be skeptical, even in the gospels and especially after,  Mary was accussed of fornication by the jewish religious. Later she was made "Queen" and prayed to. ( All religious slur..your mother wears combat boots)

If Jesus had come from "no where'....then hs connection to Israel would have no substance...he could then be claimed to be Buddah or some other religions leader. 

How do you create a adam...and have any man observe it.??

beloved

 

[Beloved]

Darren I do not think anyone here on the forum has statues of Mary and Jesus

At least I hope not.  The only religious sort of thing that I have is a needlepoint picture of jerusalem.
 
Exo 20:4)  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

(Exo 20:5)  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Regarding the statutes etc , the Catholics bought into Goddess worship and were able to bring in a lot of pagans into the church because of it. They also added "Saint" worship, they sold their artifacts and indulgences etc....money money money. franc dollar shekel...$$$$

Mary was the person chosen by God but she was not without flaws like the rest of us.

I am always amazed when I read this verse, here is Mary after a miraculous conceptions and birth, and gifts from dignitaries so she could flee into Egypt
would now respond like this at His bar Mitzvah...when in Jewish custom...He officially became a man.

(Luk 2:46)  And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
(Luk 2:47)  And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

(Luk 2:48)  And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

(Luk 2:49)  And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

(Luk 2:50)  And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

(Luk 2:51)  And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

They had no idea what he was here to do....did she think He was going to overthrow Rome like the rest did....later the gospel hint that His family did not take to His ministry at first and were skeptical...like most of us were.

Perhaps that is why at thirty...she says at the wedding...Do whatever he tell you to do...
Here is a question to ponder...why did Jesus at the cross give John "custody" of His Mother and not Peter, or John's older brother James or to his half younger brother James (who later became part of the church)?

beloved

[winner08]

So my question still stands is it or is it not breaking one of the Ten if one is kneeling in church looking at a statute of Jesus or Mary and praying?? Is it praying to the statue or praying to what the statue represents? (IE) Jesus or Mary.

PS I do not believe anybody here prays to statues either. But millions if not billions do. Are they praying to the statue or what it represents?? Is one a sin and not the other or both??

[Beloved]

Darren

That is why I posted the exact commandment   Exodos 20 :4&5

I do not understand exactly what you are asking?

Who prays to a statue... ::)and in their right mind expects anything....   :oyes
yes they are praying to the image but the prayer (spiritual) is being sent to that which it represents...  Both are wrong

We are to look to what we are doing and not so much at what others are doing...if you do then you will start judging them ....

Darren they are blind and deaf and dumb....until God opens their eyes they will continue to do this....

We on the other hand are to study the word and understand what GOD is showing to each of us

beloved

[Falconn003]

I was reading some of Ray's responses to questions of the trinity.  He speaks of Christ being conceived by the Holy Spirit.  This got me thinking about Mary's role in the birth of Christ.

Why did God need to have Christ born into this world in the conventional way?  Why couldn't He have created the second Adam as the first Adam?  Would his Apostles and disciples not have believed in Christ had he not been "born"?  Was God trying to show us that Christ was no different than we are (born of the flesh)?

And why Mary?  She was hand-picked by God.  Was there something significant about her as opposed to any other woman at that time? Or was this a random choosing?

Just curious.

Eileen

If i am not mistaken Ray states Jesus is BEGOTTEN not concieved,,, but am checking.

Rodger

[winner08]

thanks beloved. I got it.

[EKnight]

Rodger,

Excerpt from email #18 :

http://bible-truths.com/email18.htm#agree

Jesus Christ was "conceived by THE HOLY SPIRIT."  Now then, whose Son is Jesus Christ?  Is he "The Son of the Holy Spirit?"  NO?  And why not?  Since when is the man who "conceives" a child with a women, no longer the "father" when the child is born?  Do you know of any such unscientific nonsense, Robbins?  Every little school boy in the street knows that the man who caused his mother to conceive IS HIS FATHER, not some other man or some other ghostly person.  The reason that Jesus is the "Son of the FATHER" (I1 John 3)   The reason little Johnny is the Son of his father is because his mother became pregnant by HIS SPERM.  And the reason that Jesus is the Son of the Father {II Jn 3), and not the son of some other person, is because his Mother, Mary, was made pregnant by His Father "Holy Spirit."  Am I going to fast for you?

That is what I read from one of Ray's emails when I started this thread. It's only what got me thinking, not what the this thread is about.

Eileen

[Dennis Vogel]

When God said that we should not worship any idols, does this include statues of Mary and even at that, Jesus also??? What about the saints??would praying to these statues be the same as, lets say any other religion who prays to statues such as ,well i don't want to name names. Still would it not be breaking one of God's ten?

Any image is wrong, let alone physical statues.

IMO, people worship many idols of the heart all day, everyday, without realizing it.

Example: For guys it could be a brand new car. It sits in the driveway and you go to the window over and over looking at it with admiration. It fills us with pride to know that's 'my' new car. We like how other people look at our new car with envy.

I'm as guilty as anyone. I just did some minor remodeling. I found myself just looking at my handyword with pride (not that we sould not do whatever we do with all our might).

Anything that fill's us up with pride (puffs up) is wrong. We can take credit for nothing.

Luk 18:19  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Dennis

[Amrhrasach]

When God said that we should not worship any idols, does this include statues of Mary and even at that, Jesus also??? What about the saints??would praying to these statues be the same as, lets say any other religion who prays to statues such as ,well i don't want to name names. Still would it not be breaking one of God's ten?

Any image is wrong, let alone physical statues.

IMO, people worship many idols of the heart all day, everyday, without realizing it.

Example: For guys it could be a brand new car. It sits in the driveway and you go to the window over and over looking at it with admiration. It fills us with pride to know that's 'my' new car. We like how other people look at our new car with envy.

I'm as guilty as anyone. I just did some minor remodeling. I found myself just looking at my handyword with pride (not that we sould not do whatever we do with all our might).

Anything that fill's us up with pride (puffs up) is wrong. We can take credit for nothing.

Luk 18:19  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Dennis

*>*>*>

Wow!   I've really never thought of it that way Dennis.  I've tried to understand but it's never come through like that. 

"IMO, people worship many idols of the heart all day, everyday, without realizing it."

I'm so guilty.  Don't want to be, but I am.   I pray God fills our minds with the proper things.

A.

[aqrinc]

Yes Dennis,

You are so right, that is why we should Rest in Christ and stop trying to fix us up. As Paul said; Not i but
Christ in me.

Galatians 2:20:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in
the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 6:14:
But God forbid that I should glory, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified
to me, and I to the world. 

george.

When God said that we should not worship any idols, does this include statues of Mary and even at that, Jesus also??? What about the saints??would praying to these statues be the same as, lets say any other religion who prays to statues such as ,well i don't want to name names. Still would it not be breaking one of God's ten?

Any image is wrong, let alone physical statues.

IMO, people worship many idols of the heart all day, everyday, without realizing it.

Example: For guys it could be a brand new car. It sits in the driveway and you go to the window over and over looking at it with admiration. It fills us with pride to know that's 'my' new car. We like how other people look at our new car with envy.

I'm as guilty as anyone. I just did some minor remodeling. I found myself just looking at my handyword with pride (not that we sould not do whatever we do with all our might).

Anything that fill's us up with pride (puffs up) is wrong. We can take credit for nothing.

Luk 18:19  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Dennis

[Marlene]

George and Dennis, This is all so true. I was always trying to fix me.  I was always trying to fix others. I felt responsible to help others. Now, I know I can't fix me or anyone. It is God who does this.  Any  thing can become and Idol. Christmas use to be that for me. I had expectations that never seemed to work out. I would have a let down feeling after the Holidays. But, before coming in here God started showing me that is why I felt depressed. Now, this is the day my family likes to get together. I almost lost my life two years ago. It was in Oct. That , Christmas was about being with people I love. We never know when we might not have each other. We were never able to have children but we always gave to neices and nephews.

Its not the things that we build up that perish or can be stolen, that have value, but first Christ and people. So, there we should not judge, but judge ourselves because we all have idols of the heart. I dont think having a meal when all are together is wrong. I think anything is wrong when it takes away from the Glory of God. I know we cannot be the judge. The judge will show each one of us those idols of the heart and it will be in his time, not ours.

I believe the best gift we can give is LOVE it never fails, even if the LOVE we gave seems to it never fails. We should live in LOVE 375 days a year. The Holidays are for some just another time to get together. Any other thing besides Love can become an idol .

In His Love,
Marlene

[hammerandnails]

Hello, Eileen,

The reason why Jesus was born like us, and not created as Adam, because He had to be like us in EVERY aspect.
Born of a woman through the womb which is the gate.
Gate also means door, a door that opens another dimension.
He had to be born in this dimension through the womb, like us, and us must pass into
another dimension (the kingdom of our father) through Him, which is the door (gate).
So, think about it like this:

The gate to this earthly dimension is the womb.
The gate to the Kindom(heavenly dimension) is Jesus, which in every aspect was like us, in order that we must be qualified to enter.
This is supported by the following scriptures:


          John10:1-4

                   "Verily, verily, I say to you, He that enters not by the door (womb) into the sheepfold, but climbs
                    up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."

                    "But he that enters in by the door (womb) is the Shepperd of the sheep."

                    "To him the porter(the Father) opens;and the sheep(us) hear his voice: and he(Jesus) calls his
                     own sheep (the called) by name (before you were in your mother's womb, I knew you), and lead them
                    out(of this world into the Kindom.)"

                    "And when he puts forth his own sheep (us, him like us), he goes before them (the first born into the Kindom)
                     and the sheep (the chosen) follow him (to the end): for they know his voice. (the language of the Kindom,
                     which is the language of love, which only the chosen can hear, because they were given ears)"

                    "The said Jesus to them again, Verily, verily, I say to you, I am the door (to the Kindom of the Father)
                     of (for) the sheep (us)." v.7

                     "I am the door: (of the Kindom) by Me if any man (must be a man) he shall be saved, and shall
                      go in and out, (whom all the KEYS[understanding] of the Kindom are given,[the chosen and the faithfull])
                      and find pasture (spiritual food)." v.9

Also:

                   "Sanctify (dedicate) to Me all the FIRST BORN, whatsoever OPENS THE WOMB among the children
                    of Israel, both of man and of beast: IT IS MINE." Exo.13:2

                   "That you shall set apart TO THE LORD all that open the MATRIX (womb), and every FIRSTLING.....
                    .........THE MALES SHALL BE THE LORD'S." V.12  ALSO SEE V. 15!


Mary means rebellious, bitter (gk.#3137) from #0413 (Heb) meaning the same thing, from #04805 (Heb.) which means rebellion, bitterness.
       
                 "And when they came to Marah (#04785, bitter, from#04751-Mar, bitter, the root word for Mary)
                  they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah." Exo.15:23

                 "And Moses cried to the Lord; (see v. 24) and the LORD show him a tree[the cross], which when he
                  had cast into the waters (see James3), the waters were made sweet:....." v.25

Mary was neither holy nor sweet, but bitter and rebellious (before the Lord was born), as from the seed of the apple
that Eve ate (the tree of knowledge of good[sweet] and evil[bitter]), which came to us through generations!
We are bitter, made sweet by the cross!!!
We carry the seeds of bitterness:

                      "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God(after we have been made sweet);
                       lest ANY ROOT OF BITTERNESS SPRINGING UP TRUBLE YOU, and thereby MANY BE DEFILED;" Heb.12:15

 I hope this helps.

Lost in His Love
Ariel

                 

[thomasanthony]

Regarding idols and statues in the church, let's not forget idols representing the Holy Spirit in the form of a bird as Paul spoke of in Romans 1:23

"and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures." NAS

This, of course, is strictly forbidden under the first commandment. My wife goes to a Pentecostal church which a has giant (molded?) image of their logo, which is a dove (phoenix?) with his claws grasping the globe behind the pulpit in a dominating fashion that cannot be ignored. I have asked several members about this, and they believe that the Holy Spirit is God, in fact they pray to the Holy Spirit (which is unscriptural), but somehow do not see this as idolatry. It is even worse when you consider the striking similarities betwen their image and numerous variations used by freemasons.