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Scriptures Disproving Free Will
David:
--- Quote from: Daddysgirl on December 04, 2008, 06:31:21 AM ---
--- Quote from: Akira329 on December 04, 2008, 06:04:50 AM ---From Rays Free Will Paper
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11)
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“…according to the purpose of Him [God] Who works [Greek aiorist tense: past, present, and future] all things after the counsel of His Own will” (Eph. 1:11).
Grammatically speaking I will stick with the him as God the Father right now.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Like I said I do see why you render it such a way.
Though I believe the inital purpose for all things came from the Father.
Thanks David
Antaiwan
--- End quote ---
David
I also have to agree with Antaiwan. When i initially saw your post i had a problem with the "He" being Jesus, not that the scripture wouldn't be true if it were Jesus, but this has been my best scripture in understanding that all is of God the father.
Also, i find that the "His Own Will" part in the end renders the "working"(operates) to God. I hope you get what i mean. It would hardly make sense to include "own" if it were Jesus doing the "working".
Nonetheless, i also see where you coming from.
Matty
--- End quote ---
Interesting points Matty.
I think it hardly makes sense either with the words "after the counsel" (counsel, advise, consult) to render it as "God The Father". I have a problem with God needing to counsel, advise or consult Himself before He can do His will.
Not all Bibles have the word "Own".
David
Snowfire:
Dave, I see Ray’s recent study on “Wisdom” as an answer to your question. I’m seeing that in that everything that God does, he councils himself to do it. To put in human terms, it sort of like before actually building something a person goes over in his mind how he plans to achieve the end product. He considers how every thing will work and everything that he knows will not work, in effect reasoning out things with the mind.
God council within himself what will work and what will not work.
Just my thoughts,
Rick
Akira329:
Eph 1:11
(ALT) in Him in whom also we were appointed by lot [or, obtained an inheritance], having been predestined according to the purpose [or, plan] of the One supernaturally working all [things] according to the counsel [or, intention] of His will,
(ASV) in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
(BBE) In whom we have a heritage, being marked out from the first in his purpose who does all things in agreement with his designs;
(Bishops) In whom also we are chosen, beyng predestinate accordyng to the purpose of hym who worketh all thynges after the councell of his owne wyll:
(CEV) God always does what he plans, and that's why he appointed Christ to choose us.
(CLV) in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
(Darby) in whom we have also obtained an inheritance, being marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will,
(DRB) In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will.
(EMTV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
(ESV) In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
(Geneva) In whom also we are chosen when we were predestinate according to ye purpose of him, which worketh all things after the counsell of his owne will,
(GNB) All things are done according to God's plan and decision; and God chose us to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own purpose, based on what he had decided from the very beginning.
(GW) God also decided ahead of time to choose us through Christ according to his plan, which makes everything work the way he intends.
(KJV+) InG1722 whomG3739 alsoG2532 we have obtained an inheritance,G2820 being predestinatedG4309 accordingG2596 to the purposeG4286 of him who workethG1754 all thingsG3956 afterG2596 theG3588 counselG1012 of his ownG848 will:G2307
(KJV-1611) In whom also we haue obteined an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsell of his owne will:
(KJVA) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(LITV) in whom we also have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of the One working all things according to the counsel of His own will,
(MKJV) in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,
(RNKJV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Rotherham) In whom also we were taken as an inheritance, according to the purpose of him who energiseth all things according to the counsel of his will,
(RV) in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
(Webster) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(YLT) in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,
Antaiwan
David:
Thank you Rick and Antaiwan
However, I will never again render eph 1:11 as the 2nd "Him" being God the Father, regardless of the brother or sister, minister, teacher, theologian etc that is telling me that this is the way it should be rendered. I am confident in my belief that it is Christ being talked about that does all things according to the will of the Father, and the Gospels are full of scriptures that tell us that Christ always did the will of the Father, where as mankind certainly did not and does not. I'm seeing that the implications of rendering it otherwise is almost as bad as eternal torment doctrines etc.
Rape, Murder, Torture, kidnapp, terrorism, perversion etc are NOT the will of God, God does not have any desire for these things to happen, it is not His pleasure, it is not His wish.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: David on December 06, 2008, 03:24:21 PM ---Thank you Rick and Antaiwan
However, I will never again render eph 1:11 as the 2nd "Him" being God the Father, regardless of the brother or sister, minister, teacher, theologian etc that is telling me that this is the way it should be rendered. I am confident in my belief that it is Christ being talked about that does all things according to the will of the Father, and the Gospels are full of scriptures that tell us that Christ always did the will of the Father, where as mankind certainly did not and does not. I'm seeing that the implications of rendering it otherwise is almost as bad as eternal torment doctrines etc.
Rape, Murder, Torture, kidnapp, terrorism, perversion etc are NOT the will of God, God does not have any desire for these things to happen, it is not His pleasure, it is not His wish.
--- End quote ---
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
David,
You speak as if Christ is independent of His Father...Christ only speaks what His Father gives him to speak as He is the WORD of God. God works all according to the counsel of His will as His will & counsel is perfect.
Marques
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