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[Carlos31]

lol, obviously it's not literal.

Jesus is a foundation, living according to his law, the law of Christ.

I never said Jesus is a physical foundation, or a physical lamb.

it is the works that are tried in fire.

[Carlos31]

1Co 3:13  the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.

[E. Woods]

I just wanted to add my two cents worth here.
For all of you guys that are relatively new to all of this, I don't want to step on your convictions.

I know it feels like that sometimes. 

For me, I understand convictions. I have had SO many over the 18 years I've been a Christ follower. I don't doubt for a moment that my past convictions were from the Lord even though I may not hold them any longer. I also know that He will continue to mold me as He sees fit in the timing that He knows is best for me. He grows us all at a different pace and reveals things to us at different times. It is part of our uniqueness and it all fits into His plan.

I disagree with someone who posted once recently that if your eyes are not open to BT truths then you aren't walking with the Spirit. I have only had my eyes opened to these wonderful truths for less than a year but the Spirit of God has been directing my steps and ALL OVER our lives for long before He opened my eyes to these truths.

Now I also have a different understanding of what the Sabbath is (like Joe's and Samson's and Rodger's) and I have a different understanding of a lot of things now that I used to take literally and physically but now see with Spiritual eyes.

I think that once you really get into Ray's work and see just how the Bible is an entire book about Jesus and is a reflection of Him all the way through the Old to the New, you too will find your convictions changing and reshaping and becoming new and better.

Hope I didn't sound uppity. I certainly am not. Just growing with everyone else here in GOD's TIMING and not my own...

Blessings, Lin

   Hello Lin.
   I loved your two cents, and I agree with that.
   I was in the WCG for years before 1972, and it took a while before God opened my eyes, to the lies we were
taught,
   Now I look at what Joshua said. Jos. 24:22, "as for me and my house we will serve the Lord", and
   Gal. 6:4, " let each one examine his oun work, and then he will have rejoicing in himslef alone, and
not in another.
   1John 2:27, " But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you,  and you do not
need that anyone teach you."
     
God Bless you,  Be Happy.
Earl

[mharrell08]

Numbers 31

21  And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;

22  Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,

23  Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.

Gold and all the other metals/minerals all have to go through the fire to be clean. Our God is this fire, a 'consuming Fire' [Heb 12:29], which makes these items clean. He himself is not one that needs to be cleansed. The gold and other metal/minerals were physical items that the men of battle possessed. 'Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition...[1 Cor 10:11]; and is a shadow for the spiritual/inanimate items we possess that need to be tried/refined in fire [That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:...1 Pet 1:17]

Hebrews 5

7  Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10  Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

While the writer of Hebrews makes reference to Christ's earthly ministry starting in verse 7, the rest of his statement is in reference to before this eon began. Christ became to author of eonian salvation before the foundation of the world [But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you...1 Pet 1:19-20. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ]  slain from the foundation of the world...Rev 13:8] The things He suffered made Him perfect to become the author of eonian salvation. This happened before the foundation of the world or beginning of this eon; not in His earthly ministry.

Revelation 3

8  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

As Ray has taught, when Christ spoke to one church in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, He was speaking to all churches. As all churches had the same admonitions against them (synagogue of Satan, defiled garments, being lukewarm, etc) they also were given the same rewards (name in book of life of Lamb, pillar in the temple, sit with me in my throne, etc) for OVERCOMING. The gold tried in fire, white raiment, and eyesalve are the means which Christ gives us to overcome. They are not the actual reward for overcoming, only the means to do so. The eyesalve is spiritual sight and understanding...the white raiment signifies righteousness; as the defiled garments from the parable of the wedding feast (Matt 22:1-14) signified unrighteousness. The proper wedding garment (white raiment signifying righteousness) was only the means to get into the wedding; not the actual wedding (kingdom of heavens) itself. In this same manner, gold tried in fire is the means or method to HOW we overcome and receive our reward. It is not the reward itself however.

2 Tim 2

19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21  If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This great house that Paul is speaking of is the church.

Excerpt from 'Fools, Hypocrites, Snakes' (http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm):

                                                               VESSELS IN A GREAT HOUSE

Listen carefully, for these prophecies are not directed toward the world of unbelievers, but to the Church of God:

"But in A GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth and some to honor, and some to dishonor" (II Tim. 2:20).

Just what is this "great house" of which Paul speaks? Let Paul answer:

"But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the House of God which is The Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15).

The Apostle Peter tells us that this House of God definitely needs judging:

"For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at The House of God…" (I Pet. 4:17).

As this 'great house' is the House of God, the vessels themselves are people (many called, few chosen) in this great house. These people possess gold, silver, wood, earth which in turn makes them of honor or dishonor. Those who are chosen will have their gold and silver 'refined' and 'purified' and they shall 'overcome'.

Colossians 3:14  And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

1 Cor 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 John 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Love which is the bond (holds all together) of spiritual perfection, and is the greatest of attributes, is being MADE perfect. It is being refined and purified by our God who is a consuming fire. From these and other scriptures, I believe gold is a shadow/type for LOVE. The rest of the metals/minerals from Num 31:21 I believe are also attributes in us (that we possess) that must be cleansed/refined before we can enter the Kingdom.


Thanks,

Marques

[Akira329]

Hey Marques,
This post definitely helps in my understanding!
Much needed addition to the thread.

Antaiwan

[mharrell08]

Love which is the bond (holds all together) of spiritual perfection, and is the greatest of attributes, is being MADE perfect. It is being refined and purified by our God who is a consuming fire. From these and other scriptures, I believe gold is a shadow/type for LOVE. The rest of the metals/minerals from Num 31:21 I believe are also attributes in us (that we possess) that must be cleansed/refined before we can enter the Kingdom.

Excerpt from LOF series #3 (http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html):

And so we are assured that EVERYONE will be "revealed," "tried," "salted," and "baptized" "in FIRE." And these fiery trials as Peter calls them go on for a lifetime. If it were real, physical fire, all believers’ lives would be short indeed. God is SPIRIT, and God is a CONSUMING FIRE. It is God’s SPIRIT that is likened to fire. The spiritual teaching in this symbol is to recognize what real fire accomplishes and to then use that as an analogy as to what God DOES TO US (or more properly FOR US).

Fire does a number of things:

1.  Fire CHANGES things. Fire brings about molecular changes in the materials that are burned. God’s spiritual fire will make changes in our mind, heart, and spirit.
   
2.  Fire PURGES. In times past if a building were diseased and rat-infested, they would purge away the filth by burning it down. We are to be purged from all our diseases of sin and carnality. Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin for us, but now God wants to get at the root and core of what caused us to sin in the first place. We all need desperately to be CHANGED and PURGED.
   
3.  Fire BURNS UP combustible materials that have no value in saving. God will burn out of all of us the straw, grass, and stubble, which represent evil and wrong doctrines, idols of the heart, and philosophies that exalt themselves against God.
 
4.  Fire PURIFIES things of value which we do want to retain. The analogy is used in the Scriptures of purifying gold by fire to make it more beautiful and more valuable. Gold represents the highest doctrines of spiritual understanding such as the Love of God and the Sovereignty of God, and salvation of all.

No one teaches us more regarding the fiery trials of life than the apostle to the nations, Paul. Paul was "revealed, tried, salted, and baptized" in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE," and yet never a single hair on his head was ever singed.


Well 1 out of 3 is not that bad...

Love as well as the Sovereignty of God and the salvation of all represent gold. I am currently reading through the LOF again and am on this particular paper...a little more patience and I could have referenced this section in the previous post. Sorry to jump the gun...


Marques

[Kat]

I thought this might go with what you have brought forth Marques.

Rev 3:18  I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html ------------------------------

STRONG’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 219, #4442, pur; a primary word; "fire" (literally OR FIGURATIVELY. Pur is used (besides its ordinary natural significance):

(1) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Heb. 10:27; 12:29; cf. Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12;

(1a) similarly of the holy angels as His ministers, Heb. 1:7;

(1b) in Rev. 3:18 it is SYMBOLIC of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD;

(2) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ I Cor. 3:13 and 15;

(3) of the fire of DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the REJECTERS of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the holy Spirit at Pentecost and the "fire" of divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Lk. 3:16."

End of quotation, (All CAPS emphasis are mine).

I call your attention to the statement in Strong’s (1b) "In Rev. 3:18 it [fire] is SYMBOLIC, of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD"! (CAPS emphasis mine).

I just love it when Christian Scholars will occasionally just absolutely "nail" a Scriptural Truth. Notice this beautiful and profound Scriptural Truth: The symbolic fire of Rev. 3:18 tries the faith of the saints, and PRODUCES what will GLORIFY THE LORD! ASTOUNDING!

Carefully note that it is not the "believer" who "produces" these glorious things, but it is the "SYMBOLIC FIRE" that produces them. And just Who is this "symbolic fire?" It is, of course, GOD -- "For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)!

Therefore it is GOD who "PRODUCES" qualities in the saints that will GLORIFY HIMSELF! God’s consuming SPIRITUAL fire (remember that "GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24) does the "producing," not the saint,

"For HIS ACHIEVEMENT are we, being created in Christ Jesus ..." (Eph. 2:10).

"Now what have you which you did not OBTAIN? Now if you OBTAINED it also [from GOD] why are you boasting as though [you are] not obtaining [it from God]?" (I Cor. 4:7 Concordant Literal New Testament).

"All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).

"The One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will" (Eph. 1:11).

Etc.

In statement (1) the editor of Strong’s cites seven more Scriptures that are used symbolically and figuratively to demonstrate "the holiness of God, which CONSUMES ALL that is inconsistent therewith." It doesn’t consume their physical bodies, nor does it burn their physical bodies to produce pain, but it "CONSUMES" all that is not consistent with God’s holiness. And these are the things of the heart, mind and spirit! It is not the "body" that needs chastisement and purification, it is the MIND, HEART, AND SPIRIT that needs purification from unholiness. You cannot burn pride and vanity out of one’s heart with REAL FIRE (besides the advocates of torturing with real fire for all eternity admit that it accomplishes NOTHING). It takes the fire of God’s spirit to burn away evils that have their origin in the realm of spirit.
---------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Carlos31]

"Then you should have STATED that is was SPIRITUAL from the beginning, but Carlos31 you DID NOT."

Who would be stupid enough to say verses are mostly literal?

99.9% of the time they are spiritual, whats the point in saying they are spiritual? thats super obvious.

[Akira329]

Hey Guys I found this email of Ray's that I would like to add to the disscusion

Read Matt: 13:42  and try that on for size.(This verse is covered in the Judgment of the Wicked thread)

[Ray Replies]

Dear "Onfire4jesus,"

I am not sure what you mean by "try that on for size." Do you not understand this verse and are asking for an explanation?

Many spiritually ignorant people believe that Jesus is saying that He will torture people in a "furnace of fire" for all eternity. I don't know why they think He would do that. Perhaps they think Jesus is a trillions billions times meaner than Saddam's two terrorist sons were.

The Scriptures speak many times about a furnace of fire melting, purifying, and burning off the unwanted dross when refining such metals as silver and gold.  In I Cor. 3:12-12 Pauls gives us this same analogy of purifying gold, silver, or precious stones, while burning off the dross of wood, straw, and stubble. But Paul is clearly speaking of PEOPLE'S WORKS being tried and purified in this fire. The result of ALL that go through this purifying fire of God is that THEY ARE ALL SAVED! "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but  he himself SHALL BE SAVED, yet so as BY FIRE." There is the wonderful good news about the outcome of God's divine judgments.

And so Jesus also alluded to this endtime judgment of the lake of fire when everyman's work would be tried in the lake of fire (or furnace of fire). And we know just what the fire is, because it purifies as brimstone, which is DIVINE!  God HIMSELF IS a "consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). God even prophesied of this purifying fire of judgment back in the book of Malachi. I don't have the time to prove to you from the Bible that "Levi" is representative of ALL HUMANITY, but with that in mind, let's read Malachi 32-3, "But who may abide the day of His coming? and sho shall stand when He appears? for He is like a REFINER'S FIRE, and like fullers' sope: and He shall sit as a REFINER AND PURIFIER [need I even comment that we do not torture or punish silver and gold in a furnace?] of silver: and He shall purify THE SONS OF LEVI, and purge them AS gold and silver, [why? for the fun of torturing them for all eternity? No, read on...] that they may offer unto the Lord an OFFERING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS!

Oh how so many Christians despise these marvelous words of God! God's judgments bring RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT ETERNAL TORTURE! That's SATANIC! God IS righteous and when our Righteous God brings judgment upon the world, they TOO will become righteous! Sure they will. The fires of God's spiritual furnace will PURGE AND PURIFY all mankind. We read of it EVERYWHERE in His Word:

"...For when thy [God's] JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD will learn RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9).

And so, if I may borrow your words, "TRY THAT ON FOR SIZE"!!

Sincerely,

Ray

"Then you should have STATED that is was SPIRITUAL from the beginning, but Carlos31 you DID NOT."

Who would be stupid enough to say verses are mostly literal?

99.9% of the time they are spiritual, whats the point in saying they are spiritual? thats super obvious.

Interesting that you would put a percentage to it, Where in scripture is the literal .1%?
Should we rip that portion out from scripture?

Its not obvious to everyone Carlos:
Mat 13:10  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16  But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17  For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


Some people are actually blind to these spiritual truths, I once was, so were you.
Most do not know their works will be tried by fire but actually believe their flesh will burn in real fire forever.
Pity those who do not know and let patience work her perfect work!

Antaiwan

[Carlos31]

I did not say they were literal!!!

stop putting words in my mouth!

you yourself said that I should have mentioned they were spiritual.

I Shake my head, when I see you saying that no scripture is 100% spiritual.

Ignorance...

Does a cat have a tail?

prov 26:5

[Carlos31]

anyways, going back to the question.


exactly Dennis.

the gold, silver and all that, ARE WORKS!!

MAN WORKS!!!



Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
1Co 3:13  the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Co 3:14  If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.


Jesus IS THE ROCK, Jesus is the foundation.

every work shall be tried

[Carlos31]

Amen

exactly Dennis.

the gold, silver and all that, ARE WORKS!!

MAN WORKS!!!



Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
1Co 3:13  the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Co 3:14  If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.


Jesus IS THE ROCK, NOT A MATERIAL, Jesus is the foundation, and you put your works on him.

then they shall be tried

Just like to add to your post Carlos:
From Rays Lake of Fire Part One: Physical Fire vs. Spiritual Fire
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!

Ah dear readers, can we begin to understand the workings of God? God consumes with fire, the wood, hay and stubble in our lives. The things that don’t deserve to continue. But he REFINES the gold, silver, and precious stones (those doctrines and godly character traits of God’s spirit that abide the fire). It is figurative language, it is an analogy, it is a parable, it is metaphorical (where one thing is called another thing). Our lives have either qualities of character (which are likened to gold and precious stones, things of value to refine and retain), or gross lacks in character (which are likened to wood, hay, and stubble and which are not worthy to retain or preserve).

And just as real literal fire is used to refine and purify gold and precious metals, so God’s SPIRITUAL FIRE refines and purifies us from our sinful and carnal nature. And likewise, as real literal fire is used to burn up wood and stubble, so God’s all consuming SPIRITUAL FIRE will consume and burn up all the impurities in our life. These things MUST DIE. This purging is the SECOND DEATH. And whether the person God subjects to His consuming fire has many good qualities or none, the person himself shall be purged, purified, and SAVED BY GOD’S ALL-CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!! We just read it in God’s Holy Word. How can any deny it? Every person who has ever lived will be subjected to the cleaning fire of God’s spirit.

Wood, Hay, and Straw are burned in the fire(Lake of Fire)
Metals are purified or refined in the fire(Lake of Fire)
Right! He himself shall be saved!

Psa 12:6  The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

I also find these passages intereseting in light of whats to be burned and refined:

Revelations being a book of symbols
Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3  For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev 18:9  And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11  And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12  The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13  And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14  And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15  The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Rev 18:16  And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17  For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18  And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19  And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20  Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Does anyone else find significance in these passages of scriptrue?
These seem to be all the things burned and refined in the fire(God consuming fire or even by Gods word?)

Hey Joe
I see a lot of symbols similar to these but I have yet to understand there significance or connection to Christ, though I believe they do have a connection!! As I also believe Christ is the very image, substance and reality or all these types and shadows.

There's so many!
I believe sometimes I can't grasp the significance unless I know about a certain symbol such as Gold.
If I didn't know its refined in fire what would it mean to me spiritually speaking. Hope that made sense.

Antaiwan

[Deborah-Leigh]

To take the discussion surrounding Works, to a deeper more personal level note the following:

Every thought, every word, and every deed that proceeds out of the heart and mind of man is his “WORKS.”  LOF 6 http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

There is the broad feel good way  that leads to error and the narrow uncomfortable way to understanding God. One way leads to knowledge of God, reverent dependence upon Him and the other way leads to feeling good about God having no knowledge of Him. In the words of God 2 Tim 3 : For {although} they hold a form of piety {true religion} they deny and reject and are strangers to the POWER of it {their conduct belies the  genuineness of their profession}. Avoid {all} such people {turn away from them}. 

Actions speak louder than words and conduct speaks louder than self promotion.

The Power of God is His Sovereignty in that HE will be all in all, not that WE shall be all in all. Our progress to maturity  is to understand that our thoughts are not His thoughts and our ways are not His Ways and that this is according to the Plan and Purpose of God who has designed for us into be made into HIS image and not He into our image.

We can see where we are by self examination.

1 Cor 11 ; 31 For IF we searchingly examined ourselves {detecting our shortcomings and recognizing our own condition} we should not be judged and penalty decreed {by divine judgment} But when we {fall short and } are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined and chastened, so that we many not {finally}  be condemned to {punishment} with the world.

“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God…1 Peter 4:17

Arc

[Vangie]

I've just GOT to step in and clarify something to Carlos31, as I'm afraid he's totally going to miss the point, just as so many in Christendom do when it comes to a "punctuation misunderstanding". 

Carlos, Rodger was saying to you:  "No Carlos31, but you're almost right, scripture isn't 99.9% spiritual, IT IS 100% spiritual".  It's just a matter of interpretation of the words, and you and he really are trying to be on the same page I believe!  It's very hard to communicate what we really mean in this venue by just typing, and if we try to look for what we agree on, rather than what we believe are differences, we might find we have a lot more in common than we think. 

You took the interpretation of the metals into a different direction than what the thread initially originated about, but one thing I've learned from and appreciate is how Hillsborough River Joe has mentioned that we can notice multiple levels of symbolism that speak to each of us differently.  You saw a different level there, and I and others I'm sure can relate. 

Thanks to all participants for an interesting thread.  I'm sorry if I'm stepping on Rodger's toes, but I appreciate his deep grasp of the spiritual applications of scripture, and don't want his point to have been lost.  Thanks Arcturus for your thoughtful input too, very insightful!

Love in Christ,
Vangie

[aqrinc]

Thanks Roger,

I see no teaching here, I do see agreement with what Ray and The Scriptures Say. You put  this
subject of works of man versus Foundation Of Jesus Christ in stark contrast while making clear
the different quality of each persons works (wood hay stubble vs Silver Gold Precious Stone).

Here are some Scriptures below that we all need to keep remembering:

Galatians 2:16:
Knowing, however, that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, nor at all save through faith in Christ Jesus;
even we, on Christ Jesus, believed, that we might be declared righteous—by faith in Christ, and not by works of law;
because, by works of law, shall no flesh be declared righteous.

Galatians 5:19-21
19-Manifest, however, are the works of the flesh, which, indeed, are—fornication, impurity, wantonness,
20-idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of wrath, factions, divisions, parties,
21-envyings, drunkenness, revellings;—and such things as these: as to which I forewarn you, even as
I have forewarned you,—that, they who such things as these do practise, shall not inherit, God’s kingdom.

Galatians 5:22-26:
22-But, the fruit of the Spirit, is—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, graciousness, goodness, faithfulness,
23-meekness, self-control;—against such things as these, there is no law.
24-And, they who are of Christ Jesus, have crucified, the flesh, with its susceptibilities and covetings.
25-If we live by Spirit, by Spirit, let us also walk.
26-Let us not become vain-glorious,—one another, challenging, one another, envying.

Galatians 6: 1-10
1-Brethren! if a man should even be overtaken in any fault, ye, the spiritual, be restoring such a one, in a
spirit of meekness, looking to thyself, lest, even thou, be put to the test.
2-One another’s burdens, be ye bearing, and, so, fill up the law of the Christ.
3-For, if any one thinketh he is something, when he is, nothing, he deceiveth himself;
4-But, his own work, let each one be putting to the proof, and, then, for himself alone, the matter of boasting,
shall he have, and not for some other,
5-For, each one, his own proper load, shall bear:—
6-Howbeit, let him who is being orally instructed in the word, have fellowship with him that is so instructing him,
in all good things.
7-Be not deceiving yourselves! God, is not to be mocked; for, whatsoever a man soweth, the same, shall he also reap,
8-Because, he that soweth into his own flesh, out of the flesh, shall reap corruption, whereas, he that soweth into
the Spirit, out of the Spirit, shall reap age-abiding life.
9-And, in doing that which is honourable, let us not be fainthearted; for, in due season, we shall reap, if we faint not.
10-Hence, then, as we have opportunity, let us be working what is good, towards all,—but, especially, towards the
family of the faith.


george.

[Deborah-Leigh]

To add to your skillfully crafted post George:

Galations 2 : 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the the Faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

That little "OF" in the above verse speaks VOLUMES to me.

It is not by MY faith that I live. Who owns the Faith of Christ? Who can purchase or earn the Spirit of God or know His Mind.   Non can know God or approach Christ unless it is by Christ's appointment that is forordained and forknown. This is what makes the Scripture about self judgment so vital. 1 Cor 11 ; 31 For IF we searchingly examined ourselves {detecting our shortcomings and recognizing our own condition} we should not be judged and penalty decreed {by divine judgment} But when we {fall short and } are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined and chastened, so that we many not {finally}  be condemned to {punishment} with the world.

To quote from LOF 6:
"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged. But when we ARE JUDGED, we are CHASTENED [Greek: paideuo, to train, educate, discipline, punish, chastise, instruct, learn, and teach] of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world [at the great white throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

This Scripture is like the glasses that bring sight to unseeing or dull eyes.

God is the potter and I am the clay. We are all clay! Is clay part of the foundation?  (Rhetorical question. ) 

The purpose and fulfilment of the vessel God is making anyone to be is from clay first ~ either the vessel is being fashioned to His Honour and recognition of Him in all circumstances and events, or the vessel is being made dull and sluggish, even slothful in achieving spiritual insight Heb 5 : 11 to the dishonour of nonrecognition of God working all things to the good for those who love Him.

Those who love God, are getting to know Him and to walk in His Good Works He prepares for us.


http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto [unto what?] … unto GOOD WORKS, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). We are not saved by OUR WORKS, but we are preordained to walk in GOD’S GOOD WORKS, nonetheless.



Arc

[aqrinc]

Hi Arc,

Thanks for the Kudos but; It Is All Of GOD In Jesus Christ.

What you have added brings us full circle to the first post here (Sabbath Rest).
Strange but for the last several weeks i have been listening to the audio of all
these topics that keep coming up daily. It would do well for us all to spend more
time learning and listening to the Word as this Food Is Powerful and Calming.

We Cease and Rest In His Finished Work; rather than substituting our own puny workings.

george.

Here are some excerpts from Ray's Teaching on The Sabbath.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6310.msg50887.html#msg50887

December 2007 Bible study

                                  KEEPING SABBATH

The Sabbath commandment is the longest of the ten commandments.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy:  Six days you shall labor and do all your work.  But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Lord your God:  In it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates.  For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:  Wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it” (Ex. 20:8-11 Concordant).

There is a couple of things I want you to notice about this.  This is a long commandment.  In verse 9, “Six days shall thou labor…”
In the King James in says, verse 11 “for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth…”

And I don’t think it uses the plural for heaven - heavens.  When ever you see heaven in the Old Testament and the New Testament it is almost always plural - heavens.  The King James just does not do that.  They usually have it singular - heaven. 
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen 1:1, King James).
It should be plural, heavens. 

But the word “in” that is in Ex. 20:11, “for in six days” that word “in” if you look at it in your King James it’s in italics, because it is not in the Hebrew and it really shouldn’t be there.  Sometimes you have to add words because it helps the understanding, but in this case it hinders.  Now if it doesn’t make sense or is not proper grammar without it, then you may have to insert it.  There are times you need to do that, because languages do not translate word for word or even phrase for phrase.  But in this case it is not necessary and it changes the meaning. 
So it’s not “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth…and all that in them is”  but it should be “For six days the Lord made heaven and earth…”  Now that is a giant difference. 

>
So “God created the heavens and the earth… all that in them is… for six day”  How long were these six days?  Were they 24 hour periods? 
It was on the seventh day that it said God rested in the King James. 
Was that a 24 hour day?  If it was, why is He STILL CEASING from His work? 
This Scripture says He is. Genesis 2:2 in the Concordant correctly says;

Gen 2:2 And finishing is the Elohim (God), on the sixth day, His work which He does. And ceasing is He on the seventh day from all His work which He does.

So He’s “finishing” it all up in the sixth day and He’s ceasing, that’s the indefinite tense.  He was ceasing, is ceasing and will continue to cease.  It’s not past tense, like most of the Scripture say.  You read those that are aware of this technical difference and you’ll see that it is in the indefinite.  It makes all the difference in the world. 

>
GOD IS YET CEASING FROM THE WORKS HE COMPLETED

Gen 2:2  And F I N I S H I N G is the Elohim, on the sixth day, His works which He does.   And ceasing is He on the seventh day from ALL HIS W O R K which He does.” (Concordant Version)

The works ARE finished and God IS ceasing from all those works of physical creation of the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that in them is. 

Now all this ties in with keeping the seventh day, a day of rest.  If God is still ceasing from all the works that were finished, He does that on the seventh day. 
This still must be the seventh day of God’s ceasing!   

We don’t read of anything where God began creating some other part of the physical universe on the eighth day or the ninth day or any such thing, nowhere.  We are now into God’s SPIRITUAL creation… making man in God’s very own spiritual image.

The idea behind the seventh day is it represents rest.  Israel was told to rest every seventh day of a weekly cycle.  But it represents something.  It was a law, they had to rest, it’s the forth commandment, it’s a law.

Heb 10:1  For the law (part of the... remember the Sabbath and keep it holy) having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things…

The shadow is not the image itself.  So in some ways it’s almost worthless, except it points you to something. 

To add to your skillfully crafted post George:

Galations 2 : 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the the Faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

That little "OF" in the above verse speaks VOLUMES to me.

It is not by MY faith that I live. Who owns the Faith of Christ? Who can purchase or earn the Spirit of God or know His Mind.   Non can know God or approach Christ unless it is by Christ's appointment that is forordained and forknown. This is what makes the Scripture about self judgment so vital. 1 Cor 11 ; 31 For IF we searchingly examined ourselves {detecting our shortcomings and recognizing our own condition} we should not be judged and penalty decreed {by divine judgment} But when we {fall short and } are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined and chastened, so that we many not {finally}  be condemned to {punishment} with the world.

To quote from LOF 6:
"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged. But when we ARE JUDGED, we are CHASTENED [Greek: paideuo, to train, educate, discipline, punish, chastise, instruct, learn, and teach] of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world [at the great white throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

This Scripture is like the glasses that bring sight to unseeing or dull eyes.

God is the potter and I am the clay. We are all clay! Is clay part of the foundation?  (Rhetorical question. ) 

The purpose and fulfilment of the vessel God is making anyone to be is from clay first ~ either the vessel is being fashioned to His Honour and recognition of Him in all circumstances and events, or the vessel is being made dull and sluggish, even slothful in achieving spiritual insight Heb 5 : 11 to the dishonour of nonrecognition of God working all things to the good for those who love Him.

Those who love God, are getting to know Him and to walk in His Good Works He prepares for us.


http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto [unto what?] … unto GOOD WORKS, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). We are not saved by OUR WORKS, but we are preordained to walk in GOD’S GOOD WORKS, nonetheless.



Arc

[OBrenda]

Everyone....I have been truly Blessed, and have grown in my understanding.....

It is God who is Building on a foundation of Faith in Christ.....

Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
................................................................................
To whom he said, This is the rest {Sabbath} with which you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear...
But the word of the LORD was to them precept on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
................................................................................
Why hear the word of the LORD  ? , you scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing whip shall pass through, it shall not come to us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
................................................................................
Therefore thus said the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believes shall not make haste.

And I {not Man} will make justice the line, and righteousness the plummet; and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding-place.

And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge{LOF} shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
................................................................................



Just My thoughts...
Let our "Flesh" not become so easily offended at a challenge to what our understanding is at the moment, that we foolishly believe and defend a lie.

Let us all Love and seek "God's Truth" as more precious than our current truth.  It does not come in Haste, God builds a level (our building) the fire comes and burns out the impurities out of the metals, and the illusion of "Our Will/Works" and then when we see what is left, we understand what is false, and the building continues...

This is what I see happening here Spiritually....Yes ?

Peace,
Brenda

[Akira329]

Hi Brenda!
That was beautifully and colorfully said
This was a very good thread you started!

Antaiwan

[OBrenda]

Hi Brenda!
That was beautifully and colorfully said
This was a very good thread you started!

Antaiwan

Thanks....All praise to Him and the wisdom that was shared, I think I'm finnaly being given the eyes to take me to a deeper understanding.  Sometimes I will need to reread posts again and again, not always getting the differences in points and counter points of members.  When I joined BT I foolishly thought  Ahh-haaa....now I understand.  Oh well....that's what thinking gets you.

Actually crying with Joy right now.
Brenda
 

Hang in there if others are struggling!