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[Dennis Vogel]

Hello Ray,

        Exposing Christians with an unchrist like approach in dealing with homosexuality, that is the subject of this e-mail.  First of all, let me say that anyone who claims they know the "deep things" of God, his will, his feelings, his plans for humanity, beyond what is shown to us in the Scriptures is insane.  There is no way I can know all the things of God that I wish to one day know, beyond what is written, and so at the end of the day, I can only have faith in God's love, and mercy for me.

Now to the point.  Speaking to some so-called "Christian" friends of mine over the weekend, I once again saw just how Satan operates in most of Christianity.  These friends, who have friends who are openly homosexual, told me that the parents of these homosexual friends were kick out of their parents home, and left with no place to go.  The reason behind this act of hatred was simple.  Their parents are Christians and believed it was their "spiritual obligation" to rid their house of this evil.  The kid who I am referring to now lives with another friend, and has shelter and food.  The damage however is done, the kid now speaks out against his parents with animus, and hatred, and how could anyone blame him.  He feels betrayed by his own blood, and was indeed betrayed by his own blood.  The most disturbing part of this Satanic turn of events over the weekend is this; my "friends" (although they are not really friends but co workers, who I get together with occasionally) said they agreed with the parents actions.  One told me that homosexuality was against her religious beliefs, and if she had a child who was homosexual, she would too kick him out of her house.

By the way I can't even imagine what you must be saying in your head when you see how long my e-mails to you are.  Back to the e-mail.  The question behind all this is what scripture can I show them to help them understand how God does indeed operate in all.  That if God knew the hairs on your head, he certainly knew who would be homosexual, or not, that God loves all, and I remember you saying that Paul said that those who don't take care of their own family were worse than infidels.  Of Course the Bible is clear on this matter.  It is against the way God instructed us to live our lives for a man to share an interment relationship with another man.  But the parents should have prayed for him, and loved him unconditionally, regardless of what sin he carries.  Jesus instructed us to love our enemies.  When an enemy is captured on the battlefield, he is given food, water, and shelter.  They striped THEIR OWN CHILD of these things .  You don't see the tears coming down my eyes, but their there.  It is when I see these things, that I understand not to underestimate the craftiness of Satan.

Your brother,

Billy ...


Dear Billy:

I receive many emails regarding sex, divorce and remarraige, homosexuality, etc. The one thing that they all have in common when them write me is that they all LEAVE OUT ALL pertinent information, like HOW OLD IS THIS CHILD?  Is he TEN or is he TWENTY?  I naturally feel that all such emails do not want me to know all the facts, for then my answer may be a little less than what they are hoping for.

Ray

[zander]

Surely Ray, is not condoning this evil?  That was a very sad email.

[hillsbororiver]

Condoning? I don't think he is condoning anything, there are not enough facts or critical information to make a valid judgement or even opinion.

Like Ray asked, how old is this "child," what prompted the action by the parents? Were overt "activities" being done in the home?

If you had a son or daughter 21 or 25 years old living in your house would you allow them to do whatever they pleased? Would different sex partners be allowed to spend nights? How about drug use, smoking crack or shooting heroin with friends in the basement be ok? How about a theft ring of unemployed friends storing their goods in the garage?

My point (and I believe Ray's as well) is that we don't have enough information even to make a suggestion.

Just my take,

Joe

[mike]

is that the only sin that warrants the boot?

[shibboleth]

Proverbs 18:17 The first to plead his case seems just, until another comes and examines him.
There are two sides to every story. Unfortunately we are not given enough information to make a decision. I believe Ray is showing wisdom in answering as he did.
I could ask a few questions of my own. Was this young man told he couldn't bring his men friends home and did he? Was he rude and disrespecful to his parents? Was he lazy and didn't want to work and just lived off his family?
I know Ray doesn't approve of homosexuality, or any other sin, for that matter.
When my Mom and Dad were getting a divorce, I remember how this proverb from Pr.18 would be so true. My Dad would tell me all the terrible things he could think of about my Mom and my Mom would do the same about my Dad. I finally told them I loved them both and hated being in the middle of their arguments. They both quit doing it. But I never saw either one of them as bad as they saw each other.
Having all the facts is the only way to answer a question like this one.

[Sorin]

sin or no sin, some people just wont tolerate homosexuality. that son has brought great shame to the parents. I feel sorry for them.

[rvhill]

is that the only sin that warrants the boot?

No and I agree with Ray everyone has their limit. We would need more info to even try to make a Judgment.



PS there is a reason he is a homosexual, and that might be the perants fault

[hillsbororiver]

is that the only sin that warrants the boot?

Like Ray asked, how old is this "child," what prompted the action by the parents? Were overt "activities" being done in the home?

If you had a son or daughter 21 or 25 years old living in your house would you allow them to do whatever they pleased? Would different sex partners be allowed to spend nights? How about drug use, smoking crack or shooting heroin with friends in the basement be ok? How about a theft ring of unemployed friends storing their goods in the garage?

My point (and I believe Ray's as well) is that we don't have enough information even to make a suggestion.

Just my take,

Joe



No I doubt that would be the "only sin," alot would have to do with how blatent this sinning was and the age of the "sinner" I had previously listed just a few of them before your post, you must have missed them, I can think of even more that would lean me toward showing my grown child the door. Just not enough info on this particular situation to give a valid opinion.

Joe

[zander]

Sure, i mean if the guy in question was a nightmare to live with, disobedient, drug taking, violent etc, then that would make a case for him being difficult to live with.

But i cant condone the kicking of out of a house of a relative just for being gay for God's sake.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.

This verse is never truer than when the issue of sexuality comes out (excuse the pun).


Its a shame to judge the poor guy. (by that, im not saying anyone here is judging him)

Jesus came to save sinners, not kick them out

[hillsbororiver]

Sure, i mean if the guy in question was a nightmare to live with, disobedient, drug taking, violent etc, then that would make a case for him being difficult to live with.

But i cant condone the kicking of out of a house of a relative just for being gay for God's sake.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.

This verse is never truer than when the issue of sexuality comes out (excuse the pun).


Its a shame to judge the poor guy. (by that, im not saying anyone here is judging him)

Jesus came to save sinners, not kick them out

Hi Zander, I don't mean to be arguementative but if this is an adult child having overt sexual encounters in his parents home they have no right to show him the door if he is defiant in obeying the rules of the house?

I don't believe homosexuality is in itself the worst sin one can commit (Ray & Mike both scripturally prove this), I would be with you if the child is a teen and is experiencing the incredible confusion and angst that can be part of adolescence, but even a teen would have to be discouraged and eventually put out if this activity were taking place in the home, with other minors, influencing siblings.

Joe

[zander]

Like i say, if the guy is flouncing some normal house rules, like as you say having sex with other men under their roof without consent, then i can understand in some way that it would be difficult to live with him.

But not JUST for being gay. Even if he was going out and having his shenanigans, thats still forgiveable.  Nolt like the guy is killing anyone.

But its all guess work.  we dont know the details as is being said here.

[roperfam]

For me, this is such a hard verse to believe, to have my eyes opened to.  

Jam 2:10  for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;

[Sorin]

Sure, i mean if the guy in question was a nightmare to live with, disobedient, drug taking, violent etc, then that would make a case for him being difficult to live with.

A "drug taking " son is not as SHAMEFUL to the parents/family as a homosexual son is.

I'd much rather have a  disobedient, drug taking, violent son, than a gay son anyday.

But i cant condone the kicking of out of a house of a relative just for being gay for God's sake.

I can. and I do condone it. I can't condone homosexuality, like you do however. just like I can't condone people having sex w/ animals, or child molesters.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.

This verse is never truer than when the issue of sexuality comes out (excuse the pun).

Then why are you casting stones at people who are not PRO-GAY???
Are you without sin?

Its a shame to judge the poor guy. (by that, im not saying anyone here is judging him)

No, it's a shame to be a homo, and what he has done to his family, they must now walk about with their heads down in shame.
and yet you are saying they should embrace this shame that has come upon them.  * shakes head*

Jesus came to save sinners, not kick them out

They are not Jesus, they're his parents.

[rvhill]

Sure, i mean if the guy in question was a nightmare to live with, disobedient, drug taking, violent etc, then that would make a case for him being difficult to live with.

A "drug taking " son is not as SHAMEFUL to the parents/family as a homosexual son is.

I'd much rather have a  disobedient, drug taking, violent son, than a gay son anyday.

But i cant condone the kicking of out of a house of a relative just for being gay for God's sake.

I can. and I do condone it. I can't condone homosexuality, like you do however. just like I can't condone people having sex w/ animals, or child molesters.

 

I disagree. I do not condone either. I have tried to help those with drug problems you can only help them if they wish to be helped. It is the same with any affliction. If a homosexuality came to me looking for help I would try to help them with it.  Every one have their limits. Even when someone say they want help.  You may reach your limit before you can help them free of their affliction.

[roperfam]

Jam 2:10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;


Arent' we all guilty of homosexuality etc.  Haven't we all broken the law?  Then we are guilty of breaking all.

[Sorin]

Okay then, let's all throw our gay sons parties, and invite all the other gay kids over so they can play together.

perhaps that'll make Zander happy.

[roperfam]

Missing the point, or getting it, but not wanting to submit to it.

[roperfam]

Everyone,

 Remember God loves all of His creation! We are commanded to love our neighbor!We can hate the sin but not hate the induvidual! I know some gay men and a few I had known died of aides,but my love for them never died or dies!!!God hates that sin too but his love and mercy endures forever! Christ also died for the homosexual and if these friends I know needed help I would in no way cast them away! I hate the sin but I love them! There are things I have done that I am ashamed to even think about but God in His mercy forgave me and he will deal with them in His time!!

bobby

Here's a question I have been thinking about, "as Christ is so are we in this world".  Christ died for the sinner, so since we are to partake of the sufferings of Christ, are we too to die for the sinner also?  Not necessarily physical dying, but dying to self, not for our salvation, but for the salvation of others??

2Co 1:6 But, whether we are in tribulation, it is for your encouragement and salvation; whether we are encouraged, it is for your encouragement, which worketh inwardly by the endurance of the same sufferings which, we also, suffer;-

2Co 4:10 At all times, the putting to death of Jesus, in our body, bearing about, in order that, the life also of Jesus, in our body, may be made manifest;

2Co 4:11 For, evermore, we, the living, unto death are being delivered, for Jesus' sake, in order that, the life also of Jesus, may be made manifest in our mortal flesh:

(2Co 4:12)  So that, his death, in us, doth energise, but, his life, in you.

2Co 4:15 For, all things, are for your sakes, in order that, the favour abounding, may, through means of the greater number, cause, the thanksgiving, to superabound unto the glory of God.

2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not, but, even if, our outer man, is decaying, nevertheless, our inner man , is renewing day by day.


Since Christ died for the sinner, homosexual included; we too are to die for the sinner, the homosexual, so that the light of the world will shine.

[Gill]

I only need the Holy Spirit to reveal the beast in me to be truly disgusted and horrified.  Paul called himself the 'chief of sinners' and i don't think he was joking.  I wonder if and when we get a good look at the beast in each of us, we stop focusing so much on the sins of others because we too feel like the 'chief of sinners'.

It's one of my most heartfelt prayers that i bring my boys up 'in the way of the Lord' ~ and God knows how much i need His wisdom to do that.  All is in God's hands.  If, however, one of my precious sons grew up and lived as a homosexual, yes it would break my heart for many reasons, but i don't think shame would be up there at the top.  Would i ask them to leave the house ?  That depends on a lot (Joe raised some possible scenarios).

[Satch]

I haven't been in the position of the parents in this discussion so all I can do is try to imagine what I would do. I don't think the young person should disrespect his parents' home by doing things he knows they disapprove of under their roof. Just as any child living under a parents' roof should be respectful of their house rules. I like to think that my love for my child would be unconditional, that is all I can imagine. I must say that the verse comes to mind regarding the beam in my eye versus the speck of dust in the eye of my fellow man. My grandparents taught me the right things but I must confess I did go and do things they would not approve of. They knew about some of the things and even though they were saddened by my choices they kept loving me. I think that is what helped me understand the unconditional love of God. And their teaching held steady because even though I strayed, I never forgot their teachings to me and I returned to that.