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[Decky]

Hi Forum,

You all might be getting weary of my questions, but whom else can I turn to? Definitely not the "church!" 

Ok, I ran into THIS query. I was talking to someone about the "age of accountability"(The notion that before children reach a certain age, they're automatically "heaven bound") and I recalled not one scripture regarding that. I was given Deut 1:39, and a couple other old testament scriptures about shedding "innocent blood," and also an out-of-context Romans 9:11 where this person omitted that it was just talking about Esau and Jacob. Any info on this subject from Ray?

[mharrell08]

Hi Forum,

You all might be getting weary of my questions, but whom else can I turn to? Definitely not the "church!" 

Ok, I ran into THIS query. I was talking to someone about the "age of accountability"(The notion that before children reach a certain age, they're automatically "heaven bound") and I recalled not one scripture regarding that. I was given Deut 1:39, and a couple other old testament scriptures about shedding "innocent blood," and also an out-of-context Romans 9:11 where this person omitted that it was just talking about Esau and Jacob. Any info on this subject from Ray?

There is no such 'age of accountability'...the onus is not on you to prove something that's not true.


Marques

[Craig]

Age of Accountability

There is no info on this, as you've found, it is not mentioned in scripture.  Just another made up doctrine.  I can't recall whether Ray mentions this or not.

Craig

[Ricky]

I could find this one a bit funny, this age of accountability stuff. Since it is a made up by the church, it would then mean that your very first breath of air makes you guilty of all sins, like it or not.
     Ricky

[chuckt]

Hi Forum,

You all might be getting weary of my questions, but whom else can I turn to? Definitely not the "church!" 

Ok, I ran into THIS query. I was talking to someone about the "age of accountability"(The notion that before children reach a certain age, they're automatically "heaven bound") and I recalled not one scripture regarding that. I was given Deut 1:39, and a couple other old testament scriptures about shedding "innocent blood," and also an out-of-context Romans 9:11 where this person omitted that it was just talking about Esau and Jacob. Any info on this subject from Ray?

greetings,

for the sake of argument a child BEFORE an age of acountability would not be ""hellbound"" 

Anyone who would say a child is hellbound because they have NOT reached an age of acountability has MUCH MUCH soil to be tilled and  stubble to be burned away, their field is filled with darnel and they are delusional.

They have believed God is unrighteous and beleive the lie, being deluded, when thier eyes are opened, they will have much praise.

God bless
euty

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Decky,

Unfortunately there is no paragraph or Reader's Digest answer to your question (at least that I could remember or find) that Ray addressed in regard to your question. However he explains in great detail how judgment whether in this age or the next ultimately brings ALL MEN into the Kingdom of God and every person ever born is destined to be a Son (or Daughter) of God

Here a few scriptures that may be helpful to your understanding, if not your friend's understanding, along with a portion of LOF Part 4;!

Deu 31:11  When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
 
Deu 31:12  Gather the people together, men and women and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:
 
Deu 31:13  And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
 
Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Now from the Lake of Fire Part IV;

JESUS TAUGHT THE PURPOSE OF THE FALL HARVEST

The eighth day of this Feast of Tabernacles was called "The Last Great Day of the Feast." Jesus Christ Himself came to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem and spoke on the Last Great Day:

"In the last day, that GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER" (John 7:37-38).

At what point in future prophecy, will Jesus Christ CUT OFF the invitation to all and any who are athirst to drink of His LIVING WATERS? Our Lord NEVER cuts off the invitation to drink of the living waters. These waters (a symbol for God’s SPIRIT) will be available until every creature in heaven and earth is saved:

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the FOUNTAIN OF THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 21:6).

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 22:17).

And this declaration is made just five verses before the END OF THE BIBLE!

But don’t be deceived, Jesus Christ IS the "tree of life" in the Garden, and NO ONE can partake of that tree of life except he first pass the through the "FLAMING SWORD" that points in all directions and guards the tree of life. Remember, "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

So Tabernacles celebrated the great Fall harvest, the largest harvest of the whole year. It was this great Fall harvest that would sustain Israel through the winter months. There were far more products to be harvested in the END of the year than in the Spring of the year. Therefore this same type must carry over into the New Testament.

So here is where we are. There were THREE great festivals in the yearly calendar of Israel:

"THREE TIMES in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which He shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread [which included Passover], and in the feast of weeks [firstfruits], and in the feast of tabernacles [the time of the great fall harvest]: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty" (Deut. 16:16).

First comes the wave sheaf, the very first of the firstfruits, on Passover, during the feast of unleavened bread. This represents CHRIST, the very first (wave sheaf) OF the firstfruit, our Passover sacrificed for us.

Second was the Feast of Weeks when the firstfruit of the land was harvested. This represents US, the FIRSTFRUIT to enter God’s Kingdom. James says WE are the firstfruit of God (James 1:18).

Third came the great Fall harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles, a much much larger gathering, where ALL THE FALL HARVEST was gathered in! What does this Feast picture? This was the time of true REJOICING FOR EVERYONE. Absolutely EVERYONE. No one was left out of this great and final festival of the year:

"And thou shalt rejoice IN THY FEAST [of Tabernacles, the fall harvest], YOU, and your SON, and your DAUGHTER, and your MANSERVANT, and your MAIDSERVANT, and the LEVITE, the STRANGER [GENTILES], and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, that are within your gates" (Deut. 16:14).

NO ONE was EXCLUDED! EVERYONE was INCLUDED!

And so we see in the New Testament that these three festivals of ancient Israel are really TYPES in God’s master plan of salvation. Christ the FIRST of the firstfruit. Then believers, the FIRSTFRUITS. And then the great FALL HARVEST.

But wait a minute. We know that Christ was the First of the firstfruit to be resurrected to life. We also know that all the believing saints who are to reign with Christ at His coming are the rest of the firstfruits. So where then does the great fall harvest of souls come into God’s family? When have you ever been taught about the great fall harvest, which excludes no one but includes everyone? There is a reason why you haven’t heard the truth of these Scriptures in Christendom.

According to Christendom THERE IS NO GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS at the end of the ages!

That’s right, they say there will be NO Fall Harvest in God’s Kingdom. Just how do they account for such a thing? Is God such an inept and unskilled Farmer that He has a total crop failure when Fall harvest time comes, or will He just BURN THE ENTIRE HARVEST in the eternal fires of some fabled hell?

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

Also it would be good to review;

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
 
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

Peace,

Joe

[kweli]

To add:

Exodus 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother, so that thy days are prolonged on the ground which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee.

I dont know for sure when this could start, but I do know that at a very young age, one already knows who their mother and/or father is, even before they can come out and say 'mmamma' or 'dada'.

Ephesians 6
1 The children! obey your parents in the Lord, for this is righteous;
2 honour thy father and mother,
3 which is the first command with a promise, That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live a long time upon the land.

In fact, the bible seems to be saying the young must start as soon as possible to surrender/submit for they will be accountable:

Proverbs 1
1 Proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel:
2 For knowing wisdom and instruction, For understanding sayings of intelligence,
3 For receiving the instruction of wisdom, Righteousness, judgment, and uprightness,
4 For giving to simple ones -- prudence, To a youth -- knowledge and discretion.
5 (The wise doth hear and increaseth learning, And the intelligent doth obtain counsels.)
6 For understanding a proverb and its sweetness, Words of the wise and their acute sayings.
7 Fear of Jehovah [is] a beginning of knowledge, Wisdom and instruction fools have despised!

Ecclesiastes 11:9
Rejoice, O young man, in thy childhood, And let thy heart gladden thee in days of thy youth, And walk in the ways of thy heart, And in the sight of thine eyes, And know thou that for all these, Doth God bring thee into judgment. [I see accountability here]

Psalm 119:9
With what doth a young man purify his path? To observe -- according to Thy word.

Parents also have to play a role in teaching their kids accountability, much like Ray taught his son how to close the door properly by making him close it a quadrillion times...okay maybe not (much) like that 

Colossians 3:20
the children! obey the parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord;

Proverbs 22
6 Give instruction to a youth about his way, Even when he is old he turneth not from it.
15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a youth, The rod of chastisement putteth it far from him.

The age of accountability doctrine (for me) is nothing more than:

Romans 10:3
For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 11
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.

Maybe what ought to be noted is the fact that some are babies, others are elders (spiritually). Some are going to get many stripes, others few. So we are not all equally accountable. James for instance says teachers are more accountable...I best stop here

All Glory to GOD

[Kat]

Hi Decky,

Here are a couple of emails that might help with this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2692.0.html ----

> Little kids, toddlers, infants, newborns aborted and miscarried children....do
    > they go to heaven? Scripture and opinion welcome.
    > Randy


    Dear Randy:

    No one "goes to hell" and no one "goes to heaven." These are both pagan doctrines,

    and are nowhere found in Scripture. However, God does speak of "SALVATION,"

    which is really a Latin word, but it sounds nice. The Greek for this word means "HEALTH."

    Actually "health and safety." But, "health and safety" that never ends. This "health & safety"-- Salvation, starts out on this earth. There is no physical place, or geographical location, known    as "heaven."  

You can read more about this subject on our site. All such children and infants that have died, are obviously still dead, or as the Scriptures tell us, they are "asleep." Jesus will awaken them out of their sleep in the resurrection. As He will also awaken all humanity out of their sleep in a resurrection from the death.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,201.0.html ----------

There are only two resurrection to immortality.

The first is for the chosen elect overcomes explained in part in (I Cor. 15).

 All others--children, criminals, mentally challenged, the many called but not chosen, etc.

In the case with children we are told:  "There shall be no more thence
an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the
child shall die [spiritually die to his carnal mind purged through judgment] an hundred years old; but the sinner being an an hundred years old [and not yet purged of his carnal mind through judgment] shall be accursed [until he IS thoroughly purged]" (Isa. 65:20).

God's judgments are both light and harsh. (See Luke 12:45).

Many will freely enter God's judgments and will then enter into God's realm sooner. The harden criminals will have to be "THROWN into this fiery judgment of the carnal mind and human will which hates the ways of
God. (See Rev. 20:15).

    God be with you,

    Ray

[Daniel]

Decky,

Here are a couple of thoughts you may encounter.  Before you read...understand that I am not disputing any other post here...I just felt you should be aware that while most of us here believe strongly that many if not most folks we routinely interface with, do not have "ears to hear", some of those same folks ARE quite familiar with Scripture and as such, the more astute among them MAY point out what I mention below.  Again, I do not hold this position, I'm just letting you know you may find this argument along the way.

So here goes:

Quickly, the deliverance into the promised land is often seen as a physical type of the spiritual equivalent -- "Aionios Life".  In both cases, obedience and faith were required in order to "lay hold" of the "possession".  As Mr. Smith points out often, the OT is a whole series of physical types, for our admonition, of the greater spiritual reality.  So, they are likenesses not perfect equivalents.  Or in Mr. Smith's terms, X is "like" Y "in certain ways".  So, the argument would be that entering the physical promised land of Canaan, which required faith and obedience, is the physical type to spiritual deliverance into the Kingdom of God.  Please understand, I'm not trying to be perfect here.

So, with this in mind.  We know that God refused to allow the Israelites into the promised land after they failed in faith to believe that God would give victory unto them.

Num 14:24  But my servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into the land into which he went, and his descendants shall possess it.
Num 14:25  Now, since the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwell in the valleys, turn tomorrow and set out for the wilderness by the way to the Red Sea."
Num 14:26  And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying,
Num 14:27  "How long shall this wicked congregation grumble against me? I have heard the grumblings of the people of Israel, which they grumble against me.
Num 14:28  Say to them, 'As I live, declares the LORD, what you have said in my hearing I will do to you:
Num 14:29  your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me,
Num 14:30  not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.
Num 14:31  But your little ones, who you said would become a prey, I will bring in, and they shall know the land that you have rejected.
Num 14:32  But as for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness.

  Only Caleb and Joshua had the necessary faith.  So, God denied the entire Nation of Israel, including Moses, the right to ever see the promised land.  He told them they would all die in the wilderness (always a type for the world) except Caleb, Joshua and every one under age 20.

So the argument you may encounter is that God did not hold those under 20, accountable for their faith/obedience or lack thereof.

It's reaching and is not corroborated by other scripture other than a few other mentions of requirements and "accounting" (numbering) starting at age 20.  See below:

Exo 30:14  Everyone who is numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the LORD's offering.

Num 1:2  "Take a census of all the congregation of the people of Israel, by clans, by fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, head by head.
Num 1:3  From twenty years old and upward, all in Israel who are able to go to war, you and Aaron shall list them, company by company.

Ok, another argument you may see comes from the discourse surrounding the below verse.

Mat 18:14  Even soG3779 it isG2076 notG3756 the willG2307 ofG1715 yourG5216 FatherG3962 whichG3588 is inG1722 heaven,G3772 thatG2443 oneG1520 of theseG5130 little onesG3398 should perish.G622

 Please review for yourself the entire context of the verse.  Note that the use of G3398 is the same as used in Mat 18:10 and despite the detour into sheep, Christ is likely still talking about children here.  Consider it along with Christ also noting that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those such as these.  If He notes that ADULTS who are LIKE CHILDREN are the "goal", then the argument becomes that either that one particular child was uniquely righteous, or Christ at judgement will view them all as such.  Of course, no mention of age here.

So there's two of the arguments you may see.  I'll let you decide for yourself what they mean.  I don't see them as establishing a Scriptural foundation for automatic "age of accountability".  I think Christ was simply speaking metaphorically and the OT type is not a perfect physical/spiritual comparison...and in the end, the Israelites, Moses included and ALL who perished in the wilderness, are still reconciled.  So there you have it.

Dan