Hi bmeansdfw,
Thanks for bringing up that part from Ray's LoF series to help clarify to subject, as it is really hard to completely grasp.
Here are a few more emails to add a bit more, as it takes studying this subject over and over to try to get it straight in our minds.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8711.0.html -------
Your questions regarding whether God "predetermined" all things is basically true. And yes, God did "make us" as He made us. However, it is not true that God "MADE" us do anything. People have trouble understanding that just because we don't have a "free will" does not mean that we do not have a "will" at all. Of course we have a will, it's just that it isn't free to operate WITHOUT A CAUSE. It is the "cause" that takes away the "freedom" of our wills. And God does not "MAKE OR CAUSE" us to sin, for example. We volunteer to sin according to our OWN WILL. And our will, of course, operates on the many thousands and millions of circumstances we confront daily which are totally outside of our control.
God plain tells us that He does NOT "tempt--try or test" any man with evil (James 1:13). Well what does "tempt" man then if not God? Answer: "his OWN LUST/DESIRES." God is, however, responsible for His entire creation, and therefore in Judgment, God will right all apparent wrongs of the past.
As for computer making choices, I will still differ with you, as there is nothing in the definition of "choose" or "choice" that necessitates consciousness.
God be with you,
Ray
http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#why ----------------
When something is determined ahead of time to happen (namely God's foreknowledge that it WILL HAPPEN), then it absolutely cannot be otherwise lest God be mistaken. What ever is determined ahead of time to either happen or not happen, is NOT 'FREE' TO BE OTHERWISE! To say otherwise, is a contradiction. God is not a God of contradictions, lies, or confusion.
Billy, the reason that prophecies come to pass, is not because God has figured out in advance the probabilities of this or that happening by itself or aided by the phantom of 'free-will,' but rather because God CAUSES AND BRINGS ABOUT all of His prophecies. Maybe it's time for a Scripture. Does God anything tell us WHY things happen as they happen? Yes, He does! Isaiah 46:10-11:
"Declaring the end from the beginning [yes, God can DO THAT. But HOW?], and from the ancient times the things that are NOT YET DONE [But HOW? How does God DO IT?], saying, my COUNSEL SHALL STAND, I WILL DO ALL my pleasure."
Now then, Billy, you have a giant choice staring you in the face: You can either cling to you unscriptural 'free-will' or you can BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE THAT I JUST PRESENTED TO YOU!?! "I WILL DO..." is God's answer. How does God declare the end from the beginning? "I WILL DO..." How is God sure that what He has prophesied will happen? "I WILL DO..." Would you like more proof? There is more:
"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have SPOKEN IT [As in all prophecies! As is "God our Saviour Who WILL HAVE ALL MANKIND TO BE SAVED..." I Tim. 2:4!][now then, once God has 'spoken it' does it all come about by and through the 'free wills' of billions of people? Hardly], I WILL BRING IT TO PASS; [still having doubts, Billy? Continue...]; I have PURPOSED it, [But since all men supposedly have a 'free will' it doesn't really have to happen that way, does it?], I [that's God, not man's free will] WILL ALSO DO IT" (Ver. 11)!
We have just read that God causes EVERYTHING to happen as He has counsel, pleased, spoken, and purposed. EVERYTHING!!! Everything from the beginning to everything at the end. Everything from ancient times to everything YET TO HAPPEN. Let me reiterate, Billy. Everything that happens, happens NOT by the 'free will' choices of men, but BY GOD.
"MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND..."
"I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE."
"I HAVE SPOKEN..."
"I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS..."
"I HAVE PURPOSED IT..."
"I WILL ALSO DO IT..."
"FOR of him, AND through him, AND to him, ARE ALL THINGS: to Whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom. 11:36)
"...according to the PURPOSE OF HIM Who WORKETH ALL THINGS [How? By man's free will?] after the counsel OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11 second half).
And many more such Scriptures, Billy--SCRIPTURES, not the stupid wisdom of mankind. It is blasphemy to read all of these Scriptures and then teach that things happen or don't happen through man's 'free will.' That is not only nonsense, foolishness, and Unscriptural, it is evil.
To be sure, man has a will. That it is "free" to choose anything other than what God has already determined WILL BE, is totally unscriptural:
"For it is GOD which worketh in you TO WILL and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
God may not cause all men to eat grass as an ox before acknowledging that it is GOD that causes all to come about and not man's fabled free will:
"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured Him that liveth for ever, Whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom is from generation to generation:
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH: and NONE can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?" (Dan. 4:34-35).
"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature [mankind] more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen" (Rom. 1:25).
Human 'free will' is the epitome, the apex, the zenith of SECULAR HUMANISM! Man attributed to HIMSELF a power (free will) that is GREATER than the very WILL OF GOD, inasmuch has man supposedly can THWART the very will of God through his fabled 'free will."
Free will is the VERY GOD of secular humanism AND Christian humanism! This my friend, is both idolatry and blasphemy! Maybe more will need to be turned into animals before they acknowledge Who it is that rules in the heavens and all the inhabitants of the earth.
My prayer, Billy, is that you will see the foolishness and evil of this human "idol of the heart" and give it up. It is a humbling experience to come to really know and acknowledge that God is in complete control of all men's lives, but when we do, we would never again have it any other way!
Sincerely,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=253.msg2134#msg2134 -----------------------
Until we come to realize that we are all just as evil as John Calvin or Adolph Hitler, we will never ever understand evil in the world. I thank God that I have never slowly burned another man or woman at the stake over a low heat fire, but I also know that under the same circumstances, I could have done such a thing. It is within the carnal mind to do ALL the evils of the universe, and that is why carnal-minded people do such things.
Ask yourself what kinda of a God would allow YOU to be led to these same crimes of eating your own children? PEOPLE rape little girls, not God! Some people WANT to rape little girls. Others just want to DECEIVE their fellow brothers and sisters into thinking that they are powerful, or great, or spiritual, or wise, or loving, etc., but are just as evil inside as Adolph Hitler. Given the opportunity we would have all been Calvin and Hitler. But is it necessary? Yes, it is necessary. Do we think that God is playing a game?
I once placed a board across a little stream that I crossed going to school in the first grade. However, laying a board accross San Francisco Bay is a bit more involved. Creating a cat that will sit and purr on your lap is one thing, but creating creatures into the very IMAGE OF GOD HIMSELF, is quite another. Even the miracle of the Golden Gate Bridge compared to a wooden board cannot compare to what we see now and what we will be when God is through with us.
It takes incredible powers of good and evil to accomplish this. Christians cannot justify God's use of evil, and hence attribute it to what they preceive to be a greater force than God--SATAN. Supposedly God doesn't want evil, but He just can't stop Satan. Nonsense. Read my site. I told you it is a large subject.
Ray