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[winner08]

I remember several months ago before I was dragged to  a friend and I were having a talk about the Lord. She was telling me her story and how good God is and I was telling her how I felt towards God. I was very angry at him and I didn't understand Him. My biggest problem with God was if He is so good why are children born with certain diseases or why do children get hurt by adults in all sort of ways. The children suffering was my biggest complaint. We went round and round about this and my feelings did not change. I didn't believe in a hell where God would send you if you was not born again so that was not a problem. I didn't believe in an immortal soul. So those were not a problem. It was all about the children. Well after I was introduce to  and Ray and his papers. I read so much so fast I couldn't get enough. I had to read them again, this time slower. Anyways I came to understand alot but I still don't understand why the children have to suffer. I still see no purpose. But I'm not angry about it anymore. I still upsets me some I most be truthfull. But not angry. I take it as it is something I just have to believe that it will be all for the good. I see how far I have come in faith and how much further I have to go. Many months ago I would not have cared one way or the other when that women said anybody can be the way the truth and the life but the other day when she said it, it bothered me. I am progressing slowly but I have along way to go. I think of this as a journey. A life journey.

Darren

[Brian]

The book of Job is perhaps the oldest book in the Bible. No one knows who wrote it. Some scholars think Moses may have written it, while some date it as late as the time of Solomon, But one thing is certain: the Holy Spirit gave this book to us. It is a very profound book, and in many ways it touches upon certain themes more deeply than any other book of the Bible. It is also a very beautiful book, written in majestic, glorious language.

Job was a real man, not a mythological figure. He is mentioned by Ezekiel and classified as one of the three great men of the Old Testament, along with Noah and Daniel (Eze_14:14, Eze_14:20). In the New Testament, James mentions Job, referring to his patience and steadfast endurance (Jas_5:11).

According to the opening part of the book, Job lived in the land of Uz, and he was probably one of the most prominent citizens of that land. He was a contemporary of Abraham, most likely, so this book goes back to the very beginning of biblical history.

The book is a kind of epic poem, very much like the Iliad and the Odyssey, by Homer. Some think it was presented at times as a drama in which actors recited the parts of the different characters in the book. Most of the book is poetry, but it begins and ends with a prose prologue and epilogue, which are like program notes that are given to the audience in this drama.

This book will help us more than any other book in the Bible to catch a glimpse of the greatness and majesty of God. We will see what we desperately need to see that God is not just another man, great in power and authority, whom we call, influence, and command. God is not a heavenly bellboy, ready to run at our command. No, God is in charge, and He will always be in charge. If we are going to deal realistically with life, this is the way we must see Him.

We sometimes hear that this book of Job is the record of a great battleground between God and Satan and that Job is caught in between. Though there are aspects of this in the book, is this not a strange war, in which one side must get permission from the other before it attacks? What kind of battle is that?

Can you imagine a German commander during World War II stepping up to General Patton, saluting him, and saying, "Here, General, we would like permission to bomb your troops, destroy your tanks, and wreck all your plans!" I'm sure General Patton's reply would have been unprintable and unrepeatable!

And yet that is the situation in this book of Job. Satan comes to God and asks permission to do something against Job. Now that is not a battle; it is not warfare; it is a test. That is what we need to see. Job's faith is the subject of a very rigorous test. Satan is the one who brings it about, but God permits it.

You may be thinking, "I wonder what's going on behind the scenes about me? I wonder what Satan is saying about me now and if he's asking permission to get me!" If that is what you are thinking, my advice is, "Do not worry; live one day at a time." For the thing this book tells us is that if Satan had his way, every one of us would always be in this kind of difficulty. Satan would tear us apart all the time if he could--not because he is angry with us but because he wants to get at God, whom we serve. But God's protecting hand has been over us. If we can sit here in any degree of peace and enjoyment, it is because the hand of God has been like a hedge about us, protecting us and giving us great and wonderful things. Therefore, the attitude of every human heart ought to be, "Thank God for what I've got! Thank God for where I am now. What the future may hold, only He knows."

And if it holds some kind of testing like this, it is only because, as Paul has reminded us in 1 Corinthians, "He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear" (1 Corinthians 10:13).

He knows what you can bear, and He will not put you to the test so severely that it will destroy your faith. But there are implications in every test that go far beyond the superficial aspects of the situation. That is what we need to remember. And as this remarkable book unfolds, we will see some of the things that God brought to the attention of Job.

    Lord, thank You that You have placed a hedge about me and that with every test comes the strength to endure.

[Dennis Vogel]

Brian,

This text about Job was lifted from another site which we do not allow.

Please do not do this any more.

Dennis

[Marlene]

Darren, I too always wondered why Children have to suffer. But, I have seen many suffer through there parents. Abuse and all sorts of things. I often wonder if many do those things because they were treated that way as children. Yes, I know it is all in the plan of God. He is in charge. If, he was not in charge the world would be pure evil. Life is a journey. I know, I have seen things in my latter years that you barely heard of when I was a child. Goes to show the world waxes worse and worse.

Jesus is our Rock. He leads us to truth, out of this world of darkness. I am just so blessed to have found truths here and friends here on this forum.

In His Love,
Marlene

[OBrenda]

Hi Darren,

Children suffering....That is very hard to reconcile in our minds!

As the world believes & teaches....this brief life span in the flesh is all there is to either enter into heaven or enter into Hell.  That's why they came up with the theory of free will.  They can't explain a loving God and the unfairness all around them.  So anything "Bad" that happens is because we {"free will"} did something wrong, or didn't have enough faith to make it happen to turn out for Good.

A deal breaker for me of that lie...was when someone "God-Fearing" would believe God for a safe delivery of their unborn child,...and that child would die.  And then you see people with no faith in any God...abusing children and popping them out like jiffy pop popcorn?

Their theology leaves the "Christian" woman's lack of faith....a punishment and shame to her, because she had the free will and power through Her Faith...to have brought about a different out come.

Praise God this life here, is not the end of God's plan for us.
Glory in that we have NO control to direct our steps.

1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him."

And we know...someday ALL shall kneel & bow and confess Jesus is Lord....They will Love and worship him....

God Bless Ray & his work to open Eyes to the Truth!

Brenda

[gmik]

This thread has been a blessing.  I needed to be reminded of this.  Thanks to all.

[deftarchangel]

I understand where you're coming from, Darren, as I'm sure most people with a heart do.  Why, just the other day, I was reading about a trial going on in Winnipeg about two so-called "parents" who would regularly beat their five year old daughter with their fists, feet, or a metal bar; shoot her with a pellet gun; force her to eat her own vomit; and had her sleep on a cold basement floor every night.  She eventually died from all the abuse that she endured.  And it's times like that, when I yell out to God, in a rage, "WHY?"  Why let such a young child endure all that?  Why let her live such a short life filled with nothing but misery and pain?  He didn't tell me why.....yet.

I think, for myself, that is the hardest part of maintaining faith.  To have faith and trust that there is a reason for these things.  Sometimes, well....a lot of times actually, if I'm honest  , I'm just hanging on by a thread in that area.  When not just children, but people in general, suffer in ways that it seems like it's just all one big, cruel joke.  When someone loses a child to violence......but loses them on their birthday.  When someone is raped......but is raped on the anniversary of her mother's passing.  When a person loses their spouse......but loses them on their wedding day.  It's incident's like those, the ol' "salt in the wound" or "kickin' them when their down" times, that really test my faith.  Because I just feel like asking "wasn't it enough that they had to endure such a loss?  Why endure it on so-and-so date?"  All I can do is hope, trust, and have faith that there is a reason, even for ordaining such suffering on those specific times.  It's not easy though.  The Word helps.  Examples from it's pages of people having suffered much.....and a greater day having come along that more than compensated for all that suffering that they endured, provides me with a bit of hope.

I personally think it's a good tendency to have though.....to be upset, to not be accepting of it, to be confused and always asking "why?" when faced with the suffering of others.  Not necessarily questioning the way God does things, because you can't, and should not, do that.  But I myself always worry about getting to a point of being aloof about things, and taking the "oh well....it's all in God's hands" attitude.  When we get upset, when we aren't accepting of the suffering of others, and seek an answer as to why it happened, I think that it shows that we do care.  We do care about our fellow brothers and sisters (even if they haven't been called by the Lord Christ yet).  That's love.  And that's God.

Anyways, sorry for the length.  I think I needed to vent a little bit too!     Hope this brought, at least, a sympathetic ear.

Kind regards,

deftarch^i^         

[aqrinc]

Darren,

When the whole thoughts of mankind are only evil continuously the result is what happens to victims.
We can be totally human and be our carnal avenging selves when Children are abused or as the Word
Say's (Be Angry And Sin Not). Any Human with a reasonable sound mind (even carnal) cannot help but
be angry and questioning when we see evil and recognize it as such. Remember the story of Jonah or
the parable of the pardoned servant or Job or countless other events. How about learning that your
own loved ones are being abused or your nephew being gunned down at 16 years or niece dying in
childbirth and much much more (Be Angry And Sin Not).

Brother if i did not now know that Jesus Christ is Lord To The Glory Of GOD The Father; i can say with
some certainty that this world would be a whole lot worse and i would be right in there with them.

All of us would be somewhere in there but (For The Grace Of God Through Faith In Jesus Christ.
This is a heavy subject and brings out much emotion, please forgive my rant.

george.

excerpt from Ray's Free Will Teaching.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.msg40740.html#msg40740

Transcript of Jan.’07 Bible study - audio 1

    ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON
[Free-will is a self-contradicting term]


You know I have heard ministers tell the audience on international TV, the sins of their youth.  I have never heard one yet say that he likes to suck another man’s body parts, never.  Never have I heard of someone saying that he use to lust after little children.  Never have I heard that, never. 
Here is what I have heard maybe a dozen times, from the top leading evangelist in the world, here are their sins.  ‘Well when I was young, you know 18 or 21, I was a little aggressive.  You know I had a lot of vanity, about wanting to accomplish things.’  So that’s it?  That was your sin?  ‘Yea that was really vanity on my part.’  Wow, that’s not really too much to repent of, is it.  I mean that’s something you could tell the whole world about and not even be embarrassed (chuckle).  You see what I saying?

I’m not saying that every man has homosexual tendencies or every man slapped his mother at some time or every man lusted after a child.  I’m not saying that! 
I just thank God there are certain sins that I just never was tempted to have or partake of.  I’m so thankful for that.  But if you think that I’m so stupid, that I can’t see that under the same circumstances, of whoever you want to take, say Manson, that I can’t see and know and understand in my very heart and being, that if I was born in his family under those conditions and circumstances, I would have been Charles Manson.  This is the thing that people will not come to grips with.  That’s why these people say, ‘Oh yes I was a little aggressive.’ 
That’s what Herbert Armstrong said, that was his sin.  He said his sin was being too enthusiastic to succeed in life.  Oh what a horrible sin that is.  But he didn’t tell us the problem that he had with his daughter, did he.  No, that had to come out later, you see.  And don’t condemn Mr. Armstrong, for that even, other than it is a horrible sin. 
You and I under the same circumstances, would have done the same thing.  Why can’t we see that?

This is what should humble everyone of us.  We are no better that anyone else!  Except by the grace of God, that is the only reason! 
Why don’t we all have leukemia?  The grace of God. 
Why aren’t we all blind?  The grace of God. 
Are there blind people? Yes.  Why isn’t it us?  Grace of God, no other reason. 
God determined who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.  What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit, it’s all predetermined of God.  Why?  Because God is sovereign, that’s why.  He is in control of everything! 

But people despise the Word of God.  I show people a scripture and they despise it.  “I create evil…”  ‘No He doesn’t, it means calamity.’  There are words that mean calamity, there are words translated in the Hebrew that mean calamity,  ‘RA’ is not one of them.  In Isaiah 45:7 it’s ‘RA’ the same word translated over 600 times ‘evil’ that’s what He created. 
Billy Graham at the National Cathedral on international television, a billion people watching - “God does not create evil.”  Did he never read the Bible?  Of course he did.  Does he believe it?  He despises the Word of God.

[winner08]

To George &deftarchangel: Go ahead and vent all you need to get it off your chest. Myself I vent quit a bit. George you brought up some anger in me when mentioning about a loved one being abused. My wife and I have been going through a very hard time concerning Her son and his daughter. I wont get into details. Lets just say what he did ended up splitting the family apart. We my wife and I used to take my grandchild for weeks at a time (2weeks) to give her mama a rest. well I was told by my grandchild what her daddy did to her. Anyway I was livid. To make a very long story short He the dad ended up in prison for 75yrs. Now my poor wife who lost one son to death and now another one to prison for life and on top of all that this has brought up distrust and resentment toward family members. Now we hardly see our grandchildren and anyway It's tough and I ask why quit often. I'll never know the ansewers, but when I see Him (/God) I hope to know all things. I always tell my wife that we will never know while we are alive. But we can ask God why when we meet Him.

This is the first time since the incident happen that I told anyone outside my family.

[Jackie Lee]

This is hard for me to understand also, I still don't understand completely.
It is very sad.

[aqrinc]

Darren,

Sorry i missed this post in december; just when i think o woe is me there comes a Testimony
that put's it in perspective. Choices; 1: Trust that God Know's What He is Doing or 2: Do not
Trust God and His Plan, it is too hard (back to church) or 3: Go the way of world, we are our
own gods so let's stop screwing around and fix it.

We have made our choice to take #1 so second guessing is doubting Him and not an option.
This is a difficult walk and we can try to do it physically alone or Spiritually In Jesus Christ.
He Said while still in the flesh and human:

John 14:2:
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to
prepare a place for you.

John 14:3:
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you unto myself; that
where I am, [there] ye may be also.

John 5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise.

John 5:30:
I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my
own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me.

John 15:5:
I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit:
for without me you can do nothing.

Then after completing the Work He was sent to do He Said:

Revelation 3:20:
Behold, I stand at the door and call; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him
and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:21:
To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and have sat
down with my Father in his throne.
 
Revelation of John 21:6:
And he said to me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him that
is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely.

This is the best deal by a country mile over anything i have seen from anywhere else.
So here is where we have made our stand:

Joshua 24:15:
And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Love Peace and Longsuffering Brother,

george.

 

[indianabob]

Friend Arch angel.

Been reading your contributions and wanting to try to answer some of your interesting questions.

God is sovereign and can control everything that happens, but that doesn't take away the choices we make from time to time that God only allows rather than causes for His purposes.  However, it is difficult in one paragraph to cover all the questions that any one person may present because we all have different backgrounds.  Please consider the following and please disagree if you wish and explain why so we can arrive at some concensus over time.  Thanks.

1. God gives a couple the power to produce offspring and gives the parents full authority and power over the child to feed and train it to become a successful citizen.  If God planned to intervene or micromanage then the parents could not learn from their own mistakes whether they were just due to inexperience or due to selfishness and anger.  So, we need to think about it; should God and should we as adult parents of several children have overall authority over our children as long as they live or should we let them live on their own at some point?  Should we protect them from mistakes all of their lives?  If we did what would be the result?  Would they ever learn that they needed God in their lives if every mistake was prevented?

God has a great plan to give the Universe to His children and along the way we need to learn to trust our God for everything and that includes learning that we alone are not sufficient to rule ourselves.  I know that our ego tells us that we can learn everything eventually, but that is a mistake; we will need God forever.

My point here is that the plan God has for mankind is so wonderful and so extensive that the little pain we suffer here on earth, even though it is excurciating in our minds, when compared with the blessings we will enjoy in God's Kingdom it is as nothing.  Certainly it doesn't seem that way now, so we have to have trust in God and have faith that His promises are true and even that trust and faith is a gift from God given only to the few who receive it in this life.

Part of learning just how selfish and sinful that we are and that we are really made of carnal flesh and that we do despise God and His ways, is how we are treated by others.  When we suffer at the hands of our fellow man, we learn to desire better and learn that we cannot depend upon any other person in the world, not even our parents, IF THE TEMPTATION BECOMES TOO GREAT for them TO BEAR.   Some learn that in this life and some are treated fairly well and will have to learn it in the next life and from the experiences of others.

2.  Questioning the plan of God and going to God in prayer with complaints and criticism is not a sin.  In fact it can be the first step in responding to God's calling.  God's feelings are not hurt by our hard questions, it shows that we care and are seeking answers when we are confused.  A good Father understands this and is eager to help and yes while we are still angry.

Regarding a person suffering loss on a special date in time, I don't believe that God ordains such things.  God allows life to go on among the folks of the world and does not ordain that a person die from violence on their birthday.  Yes it is true that God is sovereign and can intervene in the life of anyone IF it is necessary for the fulfillment of God's plan, but that doesn't mean that God chooses the time and place of the death of every person who has ever lived.  God set in place certain circumstances that lead to events in the life of every person, cause and effect are laws of nature.  Time and circumstances affect all of us at times, but as we have learned on the forum God is working with the few at this time and in general most people are subject to normal events of the world.  God doesn't ordain that a person should remain out of doors during a thunder storm and be struck by lightning, that was the choice of the individual.  Each person is accountable for their own actions.

I hope we can continue this discussion about God's plan or on other questions.

Indiana Bob
bob.breyfogle@gmail.com

I understand where you're coming from, Darren, as I'm sure most people with a heart do.  Why, just the other day, I was reading about a trial going on in Winnipeg about two so-called "parents" who would regularly beat their five year old daughter with their fists, feet, or a metal bar; shoot her with a pellet gun; force her to eat her own vomit; and had her sleep on a cold basement floor every night.  She eventually died from all the abuse that she endured.  And it's times like that, when I yell out to God, in a rage, "WHY?"  Why let such a young child endure all that?  Why let her live such a short life filled with nothing but misery and pain?  He didn't tell me why.....yet.

I think, for myself, that is the hardest part of maintaining faith.  To have faith and trust that there is a reason for these things.  Sometimes, well....a lot of times actually, if I'm honest  , I'm just hanging on by a thread in that area.  When not just children, but people in general, suffer in ways that it seems like it's just all one big, cruel joke.  When someone loses a child to violence......but loses them on their birthday.  When someone is raped......but is raped on the anniversary of her mother's passing.  When a person loses their spouse......but loses them on their wedding day.  It's incident's like those, the ol' "salt in the wound" or "kickin' them when their down" times, that really test my faith.  Because I just feel like asking "wasn't it enough that they had to endure such a loss?  Why endure it on so-and-so date?"  All I can do is hope, trust, and have faith that there is a reason, even for ordaining such suffering on those specific times.  It's not easy though.  The Word helps.  Examples from it's pages of people having suffered much.....and a greater day having come along that more than compensated for all that suffering that they endured, provides me with a bit of hope.

I personally think it's a good tendency to have though.....to be upset, to not be accepting of it, to be confused and always asking "why?" when faced with the suffering of others.  Not necessarily questioning the way God does things, because you can't, and should not, do that.  But I myself always worry about getting to a point of being aloof about things, and taking the "oh well....it's all in God's hands" attitude.  When we get upset, when we aren't accepting of the suffering of others, and seek an answer as to why it happened, I think that it shows that we do care.  We do care about our fellow brothers and sisters (even if they haven't been called by the Lord Christ yet).  That's love.  And that's God.

Anyways, sorry for the length.  I think I needed to vent a little bit too!     Hope this brought, at least, a sympathetic ear.

Kind regards,

deftarch^i^         

[bmeansdfw]

Friend Arch angel.

Been reading your contributions and wanting to try to answer some of your interesting questions.

God is sovereign and can control everything that happens, but that doesn't take away the choices we make from time to time that God only allows rather than causes for His purposes.  However, it is difficult in one paragraph to cover all the questions that any one person may present because we all have different backgrounds.  Please consider the following and please disagree if you wish and explain why so we can arrive at some concensus over time.  Thanks.

Indiana Bob,

I think we need to be careful about using the word "allows" as it relates to choices and free will.  From what I have learned through Ray's teachings and God's word, God does not just "allow" things to happen; in fact, just the opposite is true--he causes things to happen.  Now, we can debate why things happen or if we agree or not, but ultimately, the reason is that God is sovereign and mankind (in his carnal state) cannot truly understand the workings of God.

From Ray's LOF series, part 2:

"We have got to get away from the "God allows  certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.

    "For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever.  Amen" (KJV Rom. 11:36).

    "Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).

Does this also include EVIL?

    "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

There are many many things in life that are very hard to accept and deal with in our weakened spiritual state. I cannot, after all this time, get the images of the Twin Towers collapsing on thousands of people, out of my mind. Or maybe even worse, the men, women and children in the four planes that knew they were destined to a violent disintegration in fire! I get teary-eyed every time I think of it. It is extremely traumatic to contemplate. And now another shuttle disaster! One at the hands of evil terrorists; the other an accident, fate, providence? But what is gained by trying to take all of these things out of the realm of God’s responsibility? God and God only has the "ability-to-respond." Man is not running God’s creation, God is. How can any doubt it?

We all have our own personal financial, health, social, mental, and spiritual trials in addition to thousands of other problems in our home, community, state, nation and world which can easily overwhelm us if we are not well grounded. Do we think all these things just invented themselves and brought themselves into existence? I tell you No; these are all the design of an all-wise God.

People freely admit that God knows every sparrow that falls, the individual names of one hundred billion billion stars, and the number of hairs on five and one half billion people’s head at any given second of the day, but that He is, nonetheless, just not concerned with the smaller details of your life. "


I'm not saying it is easy, but it is truth.

[Kat]

Hi bmeansdfw,

Thanks for bringing up that part from Ray's LoF series to help clarify to subject, as it is really hard to completely grasp.
Here are a few more emails to add a bit more, as it takes studying this subject over and over to try to get it straight in our minds.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8711.0.html -------

Your questions regarding whether God "predetermined" all things is basically true.  And yes, God did "make us" as He made us.  However, it is not true that God "MADE" us do anything.  People have trouble understanding that just because we don't have a "free will" does not mean that we do not have a "will" at all.  Of course we have a will, it's just that it isn't free to operate WITHOUT A CAUSE.  It is the "cause" that takes away the "freedom" of our wills.  And God does not "MAKE OR CAUSE" us to sin, for example. We volunteer to sin according to our OWN WILL.  And our will, of course, operates on the many thousands and millions of circumstances we confront daily which are totally outside of our control.

    God plain tells us that He does NOT "tempt--try or test" any man with evil (James 1:13).  Well what does "tempt" man then if not God?  Answer: "his OWN LUST/DESIRES." God is, however, responsible for His entire creation, and therefore in Judgment, God will right all apparent wrongs of the past.

    As for computer making choices, I will still differ with you, as there is nothing in the definition of  "choose" or "choice" that necessitates consciousness.

    God be with you,

    Ray


http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#why ----------------

When something is determined ahead of time to happen (namely God's foreknowledge that it WILL HAPPEN), then it absolutely cannot be otherwise lest God be mistaken. What ever is determined ahead of time to either happen or not happen, is NOT 'FREE' TO BE OTHERWISE! To say otherwise, is a contradiction. God is not a God of contradictions, lies, or confusion.

Billy, the reason that prophecies come to pass, is not because God has figured out in advance the probabilities of this or that happening by itself or aided by the phantom of 'free-will,' but rather because God CAUSES AND BRINGS ABOUT all of His prophecies. Maybe it's time for a Scripture. Does God anything tell us WHY things happen as they happen? Yes, He does! Isaiah 46:10-11:

"Declaring the end from the beginning [yes, God can DO THAT. But HOW?], and from the ancient times the things that are NOT YET DONE [But HOW? How does God DO IT?], saying, my COUNSEL SHALL STAND, I WILL DO ALL my pleasure."

Now then, Billy, you have a giant choice staring you in the face:   You can either cling to you unscriptural 'free-will' or you can BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE THAT I JUST PRESENTED TO YOU!?!  "I WILL DO..." is God's answer. How does God declare the end from the beginning? "I WILL DO..."  How is God sure that what He has prophesied will happen? "I WILL DO..." Would you like more proof? There is more:

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have SPOKEN IT [As in all prophecies! As is "God our Saviour Who WILL HAVE ALL MANKIND TO BE SAVED..." I Tim. 2:4!][now then, once God has 'spoken it' does it all come about by and through the 'free wills' of billions of people?  Hardly], I WILL BRING IT TO PASS; [still having doubts, Billy? Continue...]; I have PURPOSED it, [But since all men supposedly have a 'free will' it doesn't really have to happen that way, does it?], I [that's God, not man's free will] WILL ALSO DO IT" (Ver. 11)!

We have just read that God causes EVERYTHING to happen as He has counsel, pleased, spoken, and purposed. EVERYTHING!!! Everything from the beginning to everything at the end.  Everything from ancient times to everything YET TO HAPPEN. Let me reiterate, Billy. Everything that happens, happens NOT by the 'free will' choices of men, but BY GOD. 

"MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND..."

"I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE." 

"I HAVE SPOKEN..."

"I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS..."

"I HAVE PURPOSED IT..."

"I WILL ALSO DO IT..." 

"FOR of him, AND through him, AND to him, ARE ALL THINGS:  to Whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom. 11:36) 

"...according to the PURPOSE OF HIM Who WORKETH ALL THINGS [How? By man's free will?] after the counsel OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11 second half).

And many more such Scriptures, Billy--SCRIPTURES, not the stupid wisdom of mankind.  It is blasphemy to read all of these Scriptures and then teach that things happen or don't happen through man's 'free will.' That is not only nonsense, foolishness, and Unscriptural, it is evil.

To be sure, man has a will. That it is "free" to choose anything other than what God has already determined WILL BE, is totally unscriptural: 

"For it is GOD which worketh in you TO WILL and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

God  may not cause all men to eat grass as an ox before acknowledging that it is GOD that causes all to come about and not man's fabled free will:   

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured Him that liveth for ever, Whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom is from generation to generation: 

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH:  and NONE can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?" (Dan. 4:34-35).

"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature [mankind] more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen" (Rom. 1:25).

Human 'free will' is the epitome, the apex, the zenith of SECULAR HUMANISM! Man attributed to HIMSELF a power (free will) that is GREATER than the very WILL OF GOD, inasmuch has man supposedly can THWART the very will of God through his fabled 'free will."

Free will is the VERY GOD of secular humanism AND Christian humanism! This my friend, is both idolatry and blasphemy!  Maybe more will need to be turned into animals before they acknowledge Who it is that rules in the heavens and all the inhabitants of the earth.

My prayer, Billy, is that you will see the foolishness and evil of this human "idol of the heart" and give it up. It is a humbling experience to come to really know and acknowledge that God is in complete control of all men's lives, but when we do, we would never again have it any other way! 

Sincerely,

Ray


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=253.msg2134#msg2134 -----------------------

Until we come to realize that we are all just as evil as John Calvin or Adolph Hitler, we will never ever understand evil in the world.  I thank God that I have never slowly burned another man or woman at the stake over a low heat fire, but I also know that under the same circumstances, I could have done such a thing. It is within the carnal mind to do ALL the evils of the universe, and that is why carnal-minded people do such things.
Ask yourself what kinda of a God would allow YOU to be led to these same crimes of eating your own children?  PEOPLE rape little girls, not God!  Some people WANT to rape little girls. Others just want to DECEIVE their fellow brothers and sisters into thinking that they are powerful, or great, or spiritual, or wise, or loving, etc., but are just as evil inside as Adolph Hitler. Given the opportunity we would have all been Calvin and Hitler.  But is it necessary? Yes, it is necessary. Do we think that God is playing a game?
I once placed a board across a little stream that I crossed going to school in the first grade. However, laying a board accross San Francisco Bay is a bit more involved.  Creating a cat that will sit and purr on your lap is one thing, but creating creatures into the very IMAGE OF GOD HIMSELF, is quite another. Even the miracle of the Golden Gate Bridge compared to a wooden board cannot compare to what we see now and what we will be when God is through with us.
 It takes incredible powers of good and evil to accomplish this. Christians cannot justify God's use of evil, and hence attribute it to what they preceive to be a greater force than God--SATAN.  Supposedly God doesn't want evil, but He just can't stop Satan. Nonsense. Read my site. I told you it is a large subject.

Ray