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[Carlos31]

I was reading a scripture, I believe John 3:5, it says to be reborn out of water AND Spirit, to enter into the kingdom of God.

born out of water? I believe water represents spirit, but there is the word "AND".

whats the meaning of this?

[Carlos31]

well, i was reading the greek and the meaning of AND could also be therefore.

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [therefore the ] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

what do you all think

[musicman]

I agree.  One must be born out of spiritual water before entering into the kingdom.

[Ninny]

Hey, that is good Carlos. I like the way that reads, it makes sense I had never given that much thought!
Kathy

[mharrell08]

well, i was reading the greek and the meaning of AND could also be therefore.

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [therefore the ] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

what do you all think

Carlos,

The greek word for 'and' is kai (Gk #2532) which from multiple scriptures is always also or with...not therefore.

Matt. 2:14  When he arose, he took the young child and [Gk kai] his mother by night, and departed into Egypt
'He took the young child "therefore' his mother..." 

Matt. 2:21  And he arose, and took the young child and [Gk. kai] his mother, and came into the land of Israel

Again, "the young child 'therefore' his mother..." Doesn't really go together, you know? 

Matt. 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Excerpt from 'How Hard is Getting Saved' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html):

So now we’ve got to:
1. Confess with your mouth
2. and believe in our heart that He raised Jesus from the dead
3. and we know that we’ve got to be reconciled to God
4. and take on the quality of Christ’s life
5. and we’ve got to walk through the door
6. and be baptized
7. and we’ve got to listen to Ray’s foolishness of preaching
8. and we’ve got to call upon the name of the Lord….etc. etc. etc.

And now you’ll be saved?  You haven’t even started!
Well, WHAT IS ALL THIS STUFF?  WHAT IS IT?  Why is all this stuff in the Bible?  How do you do all this stuff? 

There’s more, I could go on for days, there’s more and more and more…. and THEN you shall be saved!
If you’ve got to do all that then why does it say, “Whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”?  Because that’s all you have to do! 
But what about all the rest???  It’s ALL ONE!
If you do any one of these in the spirit, you will be saved. Any one of them. They’re all the same! Each one comes from a little different perspective, but they’re all the same. You need to learn the principal; you need wisdom to know what the word of God is all about.



Hope this helps,

Marques

[Carlos31]

hey marques, well you know in hebrew and greek, some words are used differently, just like in English.

in those examples you showed, the word and is correct.

KAI in greek does mean, 'and', and 'therefore'

here is the definition of KAI


"Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, THEREFORE, when, yea, yet."

so in conclusion, it depends HOW YOU USE IT.

God be with you all.

[Carlos31]

did Ray wrote about "how hard is it to be saved"??

i was thinking it was the same, as he states but i was not sure.

if we are baptize, circumcised in the heart, etc, its all the same.

[Carlos31]

the word kai also means "or"

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [or] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

or as in, water or spirit, meaning the SAME THING.

water does not make you save, it is foolish carnal teaching.

[Carlos31]

This is why we cannot take the scriptures for granted, they have been contaminated by theologians, in this case defending physical water baptism, if we search in the deep ocean, we shall find the valuable pearls

[mharrell08]

hey marques, well you know in hebrew and greek, some words are used differently, just like in English.

in those examples you showed, the word and is correct.

KAI in greek does mean, 'and', and 'therefore'

here is the definition of KAI


"Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, THEREFORE, when, yea, yet."

so in conclusion, it depends HOW YOU USE IT.

God be with you all.

Carlos,

I see what you are saying but besides John 3:5, where else is 'kai' used as therefore? Usually when one uses 'therefore' the 2nd object is the result of the action of the 1st object.

Such as: I think THEREFORE I am...the 'I am' is only because of 'I think'...this is just an example.

So how does being born of water then make one born of spirit? Being born of water is spirit as is being born of spirit. The result of being born in water is not being born in spirit...they both must happen and are not dependent with on each other. Does that make sense or am I not explaining myself well?

I'm not trying to argue just trying to understand your point. Thanks


Marques

[Carlos31]

well water does not make one spiritual, that's why that verse CANNOT say "water AND spirit" that is spiritually not correct.

[Carlos31]

therefore: for that reason or cause; consequently or hence

[Carlos31]

"Usually when one uses 'therefore' the 2nd object is the result of the action of the 1st object."

well perhaps it is that the OLD things are shadow of the new things.

I don't know which translation is better. but it cannot be the word AND.

[E. Woods]

I was reading a scripture, I believe John 3:5, it says to be reborn out of water AND Spirit, to enter into the kingdom of God.

born out of water? I believe water represents spirit, but there is the word "AND".

whats the meaning of this?

/quote]

   Could it be that born of water could mean, the natural birth, when the mother is ready to give
birth, the water breaks,   It looks like that is what Nicodemus thought in v.3.
and Jesus said in v.6 that which is born of flesh is flesh.

    Earl

[Kat]

Hi Earl,

I think you might be right.  Nicobemus came to Jesus and this is what He said to him.

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

Nicodemus did not understand what Jesus was saying about being "born" and he questioned Jesus about this.

John 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Nicodemus was thinking about being physically born, but Jesus was talking about spiritually.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

All translations have "and," but I think the point Jesus was making was that the first time one is physically born (which Nicodemus was thinking of) was in the womb - in water.  The next verse indicates that is what Jesus is speaking of the two different ways that someone is born.

John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh (water); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Then Jesus goes on to say one "must be born again" or a second time spiritually, as the first was through water or physically.  

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

This was what the discussion between Nicodemus and Christ was all about the two ways to be born.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ninny]

Kat & Earl,
I think you are right, that is probably the meaning of that. After all you must be born before you can be "reborn". Makes perfect sense to me!
Kathy

[mharrell08]

Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism):

Dear Francis:

Thank you for your email and comments.

So you believe that the PHYSICAL foreskins no longer apply to we Believers of the Nations, but that the PHYSICAL water of baptism most certainly does still apply.  They are one and the same, Francis. Physically cutting off the foreskin and physically being placed under water are PHYSICAL RITUALS. They accomplish NOTHING with the spirit. Until Christ comes into our lives we SHOULD be physically circumcised, physically baptized, and physically give our tithes of farm produce to the Levites, but when the REALITY [Christ] of all of those types and shadows COMES, we are no longer under a tutor or schoolmaster, but we are by faith to go on to maturity (Gal. 3).

John is not speaking of PHYSICAL water and PHYSICAL blood in I John 5:6 & 8.  Two things came out of Jesus' PHYSICAL BODY when they pierced Him:  PHYSICAL water and PHYSICAL blood (John 19:34). These two things from then on become SYMBOLS of something SPIRITUAL that takes place in us by these two things. Being PHYSICALLY baptizes in PHYSICAL water will not make ANYONE spiritual. Likewise partaking of the Lord's Supper with PHYSICAL wine symbolizing Christ's shed blood will not make ANYONE spiritual. Jesus Christ is the reality of both THE WATER and THE BLOOD.

Throughout the New Testament the apostles teach us concerning the "water and the blood."  Here is what the water and the blood symbolize and what they do FOR US:

"...the WASHING [spiritual water] OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed [poured out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5b-6).

"That He might sanctify and cleanse it [the church, ver. 25] with the washing of water BY THE WORD" (Eph. 5:36).

Can we not see that the water IS THE WORD of God?  Do we get SPIRITUAL clean by being baptized in PHYSICAL WATER? What have we just read? "...washing of water BY THE WORD."  Here's a second witness:

"Now ye are clean [washed clean] through the WORD which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).

And since these two words "water and blood" are used symbolically to represent spiritual realities, we can even be washed clean in "the blood":

"...and WASHED us from our sins in His own BLOOD" (Rev. 1:5b).

Remember that Jesus said,

"...the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life" (John 6:63)

Therefore:

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born OF WATER [what kind of water? physical water?] and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

Is Jesus speaking of PHYSICAL WATER and PHYSICAL BAPTISM? Hardly. Look at the next chapter:

"...and He [Christ] would have given you LIVING WATER" (John 4:10).

"Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinks of this water shall thirst again: but whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst: but the water that I shall give shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting LIFE" (Ver. 14)

Water of LIFE, LIVING waters:

"He that believes on Me, as the SCRIPTURE has said [Scripture is God's word, and we are washed with with water of God's WORD], out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATERS" (John 7:38).

After being baptized by water, the disciples of Jesus were still unconverted. Why even Peter was unconverted (Luke 22:32). Physical water did them little good SPIRITUALLY. However, Jesus promised that they would be baptized with something else: 

"For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT not many days hence" (Acts 1:5).

Baptism is of the heart and spirit just as circumcision. If we can't comprehend this spiritual truth, then we are missing the whole point of these types and shadows of which Jesus Christ is the only reality.

God be with you,

Ray

Another email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3582.0):

  Dear Ray,
     
    Question:  John 3:5 records Jesus saying, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
     
    What is this water being spoken of?  You'd surprise me if you answered 'physical baptism', but does physical baptism have any symbolic relationship with this water?  Does John 13:10 give a clue when Jesus says to Peter regarding foot-washing, "He who is bathed ['born of water'?] needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean"?
     
    Thanks for your web site.  It has and continues to be a blessing.
     
    -Don


    Dear Don:
    I answer this in my upcoming paper: HELL Part D. I could answer it now, and do it very simply, but then maybe you wouldn't read my Hell Part D as is it will be very long paper.
    God be with you,
    Ray

And here is a portion from the Hell Part D that Ray covers (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):

SANCTIFICATION: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth... That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish" (John 17:17 & Eph. 5:26-27). Strong's #37, hagiazo, "to make holy, purify, consecrate, venerate, hallow, be holy, sanctify." Need I point out once more the enormous change that must be made in us. We are spiritually dirty and we need to be changed to something that is pure and holy. This we are told is accomplished by the Christ "washing us from our sins in His own blood" (Rev. 1:5), and "with the washing of water by the word." We are sanctified (set apart as something pure and holy) through the Truth, which is the Word of God, which Word is Jesus Christ and His blood.

John 6:63  ...the words that I [Christ] speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Eph 5:25-26  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

John 15:3  Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you

And here is where Ray explains being 'born of the spirit'

Excerpt from same LOF paper (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):

REBIRTH/BORN AGAIN: "...that which is conceived [Gk: gennao] in her is of the Holy Spirit... Now when Jesus was born [Gk: gennao] in Bethlehem..." (Matt. 1:20 & 2:1). Notice that words "conceived" and "born" are both translated from the same one Greek word gennao. So what are we to do with this verse: "Except a man be born [Gk: gennao] again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Should this verse read: "born again," or "begotten anew?" I once believed this verse should be "begotten" rather than "born," seeing that no one is literally "born" again in this life, but I now believe that context forbids this translation. But how can Believers be literally born again in this life based on the context of Jesus' statement:

"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse . Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.

And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).


This is why that the Gk word 'kai' means 'AND' and not 'therefore'. One must be 'born of the water' (sanctification by His Word) AND 'born of the spirit' (born of the spirit is SPIRIT).

Also Carlos, did you ever find any scriptures where 'kai' was used as 'therefore' instead of 'and'?


To all: We should not jump on the bandwagon for any new belief or thought just because it 'sounds good'. It's not easy of course, but we must rely on the Word of God for our foundation and not thoughts or beliefs that 'tickle our ears'.


Thanks,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi Marques,

Thanks for digging up those different pieces of Ray's material, I got it 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ninny]

Ok, Marques, looks like I need to go back and read that a little closer!
Kathy

[mharrell08]

No problem Kat & Kathy...only by the grace of God do I find these scriptures and excerpts of Ray's teachings. 

I just thought of something as well. I remember an old member making a sarcastic remark to me about 'parroting' what Ray says. Threads and subjects like these are EXACTLY WHY we refer to Ray's teachings. It's not about following some man called Ray Smith; it's about relying on a teacher (anyone want to challenge Ray NOT being a teacher?) that God has blessed us with and his teachings.

So, anyone who ever wonders why Kat, Rene, I, etc. always 'just post something from Ray' instead of trying to explain ourselves...this is why. Though we do express our thoughts, Ray's a teacher with the Word of God as his foundation and by the grace of God is how we all came to this forum. We're just having the teacher 'teach'. 


Thanks,

Marques