bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Born out of Water  (Read 4953 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Carlos31

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2008, 07:01:27 PM »

Yes.

"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [kai means "and", "or", "therefore"] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

since Jesus thought that physical water does not make you reborn, it CANNOT BE water "AND" spirit.

this water is THAT SAME SPIRIT. The water represents or symbolizes spirit. thats what  i was trying to say in my first posts.

You are not born out of water, but out of spirit? YES, or spiritual water, whatever you prefer.

water gives life to the flesh, spiritual water, the spirit of God, gives life to the spirit.
Logged

Carlos31

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2008, 07:09:43 PM »

water represents the word of GOD.

John 6:63  ...the words that I [Christ] speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2008, 07:36:50 PM »

Yes.

"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born of water and [kai means "and", "or", "therefore"] Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

since Jesus thought that physical water does not make you reborn, it CANNOT BE water "AND" spirit.

this water is THAT SAME SPIRIT. The water represents or symbolizes spirit. thats what  i was trying to say in my first posts.

You are not born out of water, but out of spirit? YES, or spiritual water, whatever you prefer.

water gives life to the flesh, spiritual water, the spirit of God, gives life to the spirit.
water represents the word of GOD.

John 6:63  ...the words that I [Christ] speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Carlos, give it up...and you still have not answered the request for 2 or more scriptural witnesses of the Greek word 'kai' meaning therefore.

Christ says one must be born of water (sanctified in His Word) AND born of spirit (born of the spirit IS SPIRIT). Ray teaches the same...if you disagree, please email Ray. Your stubbornness to the truth is only a detriment to your spiritual growth. This was definitely NOT what you stated in the beginning.

Excerpt from 'What is the Gospel of the Kingdom' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html):

Be humble, be teachable, read it, see it, believe it, do it. 
I donít assume that everything I teach is automatically perfect.  Certain things I know, I know when Iím on safe ground, I know.  I mean Iíve been around the block a few times and Iíve repented before God.  I understand spiritual principles, but I donít claim to know it all.  But when you live by the Word, then you understand the doctrine.



Thanks,

Marques


Logged

Phil3:10

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2008, 08:10:07 PM »

Carlos and Kat.
I distinctly remember Ray saying that none of us are currently saved but all of us are in the process of being saved. Real salvation comes at the 1st or 2nd resurrection. You comments will be greatly appreciated.
Phil3:10
Logged

Phil3:10

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2008, 08:16:19 PM »

Marques,
You Hit the nail right on the head. Thanks for your good research into Ray's teachings.
Phil3:10
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2008, 08:58:53 PM »


Hi Phil3:10,

Quote
I distinctly remember Ray saying that none of us are currently saved but all of us are in the process of being saved. Real salvation comes at the 1st or 2nd resurrection.

You are right about that.  Here is an email that explans this.

http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm -------------------------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Margaret:

"How do we KNOW that we are saved?" Excellent question!  Would you believe that the Scriptures do not answer this specific question?  If they do, I am not aware of such an answer. The problem in answering this question is that you put it in the PAST TENSE--"How do we know that we ARE saved" which, I guess, could be in the past or present tense. Either way, I know of no Scripture that gives such an answer.

Here is what we do read regarding salvation:

"might save" "to save"  "shalt save" "save us" "shall be saved" "such as should be saved" "whereby we must be saved" "we shall be saved" "what must I do to be saved" etc., etc., etc.

And even those few verses that speak of "but unto us which ARE saved...." a closer look at the Greek shows that it is in the aiorist tense and should be translated "...which ARE BEING saved..." as it is not as yet a completed fact or act.

Even Ephesian 2:8 which states: "For by grace ARE you saved through faith...." which is properly translated with the word "are" than "are you being saved" or some other aiorist tense verb, still does not show that anyone is ALREADY saved. The phrase  "ARE saved" is telling us HOW we are saved, not WHEN we are saved. We "are" saved by grace just as people a century into the future also "ARE saved by grace." That's HOW they are saved, not WHEN.

If there were a verse that stated that we or anyone ARE or HAVE BEEN already saved, it would contradict many other Scriptures that show that salvation is an ongoing process.

This verse says it all: 

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE saved" (Matt. 24:13). 

If this verse be absolutely true, can a statement that contradicts this statement of our Lord ALSO be true? Well, for example, "...he that shall NOT endure unto the end... ALSO be saved?"  See the contradiction?

Jesus says to him that OVERCOMES... seven time in Rev. 2 and 3. If the "overcoming" part is really not necessary, then why is it emphatically stated such SEVEN TIMES?

Is there a reason for not having a verse stating how one can know that they are absolutely SAVED [past tense] at some point in their lives?  I think so. We can NEVER STOP overcoming, striving, pressing on, following after, etc. We can have CONFIDENCE AND HOPE that we will be saved if we continue in our present total devotion to God, but never in this life can we say that we "ARE saved" already, in the past tense.

God has not, however, left us without assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions. Here is just one:

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brother kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" (II Pet. 1:5-8 & 10).

God be with you,

Ray

Logged

aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2008, 09:14:57 PM »


Hi Marques, Kat, Carlos31, Phil3:10, Kathy,

Amazing what we see when we read The Scriptures; Paul said: (A little leaven leavens the whole lump)
These Scriptures speak i believe directly of those that have another gospel which is no Gospel (Good News).
The subjects being addressed physically (circumcision and fornication) Spiritually how devious and insidious
a little bit of wrong information can be, if allowed to survive it will corrupt everything it touches.

Kat i was reading that very email answer from Ray to Margaret this morning, i got it again.

Galations 5: 7-10

7-You did run well; who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth?
8-This persuasion comes not of him that calls you.
9-A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
10-I have confidence in you through the Lord, that you will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he be.
11-And I, brothers, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offense of the cross ceased.
12-I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13-For, brothers, you have been called to liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14-For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

1Corinthians 5: 1-8

1-It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2-And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3-For I truly, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that has so done this deed,
4-In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5-To deliver such an one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6-Your glorying is not good. Know you not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7-Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8-Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

george. :)

Logged

Mc_Can

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2008, 11:03:57 AM »

When I think of this teaching of Christ about being born of water and of spirit, the teaching of Paul comes to mind.  1 Corinthians 15:45... first comes the physical and then the spiritual.  Born of water always seemed to me to be our physical birth (first the physical/carnal) and born of spirit our spiritual "rebirth" (then the spiritual).
Jesus seems to confirm this is speaking of physical and then spiritual in the next verse in John... "John 3:6  That which is bornG1080 ofG1537 theG3588 fleshG4561 isG2076 flesh;G4561 andG2532 that which is bornG1080 ofG1537 theG3588 SpiritG4151 isG2076 spirit.G4151"

If im not mistaken, this principle of physical then spiritual is one of Ray's 12 very important principles for understanding the scriptures. 

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

I like to refer back to these 12 truths pretty regularly as they are so helpful.

Hope everyones week starts well.

Mike
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 11:17:37 AM by Mc_Can »
Logged

chuckt

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2008, 11:31:40 AM »

I was reading a scripture, I believe John 3:5, it says to be reborn out of water AND Spirit, to enter into the kingdom of God.

born out of water? I believe water represents spirit, but there is the word "AND".

whats the meaning of this?

greetings:

 The blast is blowing where it wills, and the sound of it you are hearing, but you are not aware whence it is coming and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is begotten by the water and the spirit."

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 


for now i see the water= word

i dont think i was born of spirit till many yrs after hearing the word, oh i had faith, but in Gods time ""wind"" i was born of the spirit.


peace
chuckt
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 11:55:40 AM by chuckt »
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2008, 01:08:54 PM »

When I think of this teaching of Christ about being born of water and of spirit, the teaching of Paul comes to mind.  1 Corinthians 15:45... first comes the physical and then the spiritual.  Born of water always seemed to me to be our physical birth (first the physical/carnal) and born of spirit our spiritual "rebirth" (then the spiritual).
Jesus seems to confirm this is speaking of physical and then spiritual in the next verse in John... "John 3:6  That which is bornG1080 ofG1537 theG3588 fleshG4561 isG2076 flesh;G4561 andG2532 that which is bornG1080 ofG1537 theG3588 SpiritG4151 isG2076 spirit.G4151"

If im not mistaken, this principle of physical then spiritual is one of Ray's 12 very important principles for understanding the scriptures. 

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

I like to refer back to these 12 truths pretty regularly as they are so helpful.

Hope everyones week starts well.

Mike


Hello Mike,

You are correct in stating how the physical is first and then the spiritual. However, being 'born of water' are 'words of spirit' and is not referring to being born in a womb or being physically baptized.

As you referenced the 12 spiritual truths to understanding His Word, recall the principle of comparing spiritual with spiritual to come to a spiritual match:

From email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism):

Throughout the New Testament the apostles teach us concerning the "water and the blood."  Here is what the water and the blood symbolize and what they do FOR US:

"...the WASHING [spiritual water] OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed [poured out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5b-6).

"That He might sanctify and cleanse it [the church, ver. 25] with the washing of water BY THE WORD" (Eph. 5:36).

Can we not see that the water IS THE WORD of God?  Do we get SPIRITUAL clean by being baptized in PHYSICAL WATER? What have we just read? "...washing of water BY THE WORD."  Here's a second witness:

"Now ye are clean [washed clean] through the WORD which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).


Being born of water represents being sanctified by His Word. For those who believe that when Christ stated 'born of water' he was referring to the physical and then referenced the spiritual when he stated 'and of spirit' is equivalent to Christ explaining a parable which He never did with the multitude or even Nicodemus who He was speaking with in John 3.

We are currently being (an on-going process) sanctified by His Word in this present age. But no one is born of the spirit in this age...that happens at the resurrection:

Excerpt from LOF 16 D4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):

"That which is born of the flesh  [that's all of us]  IS FLESH  [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit  [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind  [Gk: pneuma-'spirit']  blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8 ). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.

And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).


Christ says one must be both 'born of water' (sanctified by His Word) and 'born of spirit' (born anew with spiritual bodies at resurrection) to enter the Kingdom. Do we think we do not have to be sanctified by His Word and only born from the womb? Do we think we can be sanctified by the Word and not born anew in the spirit? Do you see why BOTH are necessary? How can we put on incorruption (born anew in spirit) if we not been sanctified (born of water) which is to make pure and holy?

Does anyone have any spiritual witnesses that born of water is born of the womb...that Christ was being literal when he stated this...that this was one instance where Christ was NOT speaking a parable? 'Born of water' is spiritual as is 'Born of spirit'...Ray explains this clearly.

Alright, I need to take a breath... :D :D


Marques
Logged

Phil3:10

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2008, 03:42:30 PM »

Kat, Marques, and all,
Thanks so very much for your input. I so agree that we are not in any way spiritual. All mankind is but flesh and can only obey GOD as HE directs our life in HIS way and in HIS time frame. I think this is one of the major faults of the church system. They attempt to be spiritual not realizing the impossibility of being spiritual in this fleshly body. GOD elects, HE calls, HE chooses and HE saves.  AL glory and praise to HIM who is all in all.
Phil3:10
Logged

Mc_Can

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2008, 03:59:35 PM »

Thanks Marques for your thorough response.  I hope you got your breath back without too much trouble.  :)



Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2008, 04:06:16 PM »

Thanks Marques for your thorough response.  I hope you got your breath back without too much trouble.  :)



LOL  :D

Yea, I need to learn to take a 'chill-pill' sometimes... :D


Marques
Logged

aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Born out of Water
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2008, 05:39:56 PM »


Marques,

You hit the nail on the head with that one, glad it didn't nick your finger. Those chill pills work too,
this is hard work just staying on track, i am still looking for the spiritual witness for born of the womb (water).
It is not there because you already stated what the Scriptures Say re: that subject.

george. ;D


Hello Mike,

You are correct in stating how the physical is first and then the spiritual. However, being 'born of water' are 'words of spirit' and is not referring to being born in a womb or being physically baptized.

As you referenced the 12 spiritual truths to understanding His Word, recall the principle of comparing spiritual with spiritual to come to a spiritual match:

From email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism):

Throughout the New Testament the apostles teach us concerning the "water and the blood."  Here is what the water and the blood symbolize and what they do FOR US:

"...the WASHING [spiritual water] OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed [poured out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5b-6).

"That He might sanctify and cleanse it [the church, ver. 25] with the washing of water BY THE WORD" (Eph. 5:36).

Can we not see that the water IS THE WORD of God?  Do we get SPIRITUAL clean by being baptized in PHYSICAL WATER? What have we just read? "...washing of water BY THE WORD."  Here's a second witness:

"Now ye are clean [washed clean] through the WORD which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).


Being born of water represents being sanctified by His Word. For those who believe that when Christ stated 'born of water' he was referring to the physical and then referenced the spiritual when he stated 'and of spirit' is equivalent to Christ explaining a parable which He never did with the multitude or even Nicodemus who He was speaking with in John 3.

We are currently being (an on-going process) sanctified by His Word in this present age. But no one is born of the spirit in this age...that happens at the resurrection:

Excerpt from LOF 16 D4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):

"That which is born of the flesh  [that's all of us]  IS FLESH  [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit  [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind  [Gk: pneuma-'spirit']  blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8 ). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.

And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).


Christ says one must be both 'born of water' (sanctified by His Word) and 'born of spirit' (born anew with spiritual bodies at resurrection) to enter the Kingdom. Do we think we do not have to be sanctified by His Word and only born from the womb? Do we think we can be sanctified by the Word and not born anew in the spirit? Do you see why BOTH are necessary? How can we put on incorruption (born anew in spirit) if we not been sanctified (born of water) which is to make pure and holy?

Does anyone have any spiritual witnesses that born of water is born of the womb...that Christ was being literal when he stated this...that this was one instance where Christ was NOT speaking a parable? 'Born of water' is spiritual as is 'Born of spirit'...Ray explains this clearly.

Alright, I need to take a breath... :D :D


Marques

Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.078 seconds with 24 queries.