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Voting closed: December 25, 2008, 05:19:17 PM

[E. Woods]

   I have a question, can anyone give me an answer?
   I read things people write, and I try to understand what they believe. NOW if I understand
correctly,  some people believe everything is predestine, and if that is true, it IS Gods will. and we
can not change that.

   I don't like to believe that way.

   What if someone was terminally ill, is it Gods will for that person to die from that illness?
and if it is Gods will, Why pray for that person to recover? It would be going against Gods will.

  When I read James 5:13-15,  It tells us what a sick person should do. " and the Lord will
raise him up"

Thank you,   E. Woods  

[mharrell08]

Excerpt from 'Praying by God's Rules' (http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm):

"Then comes Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and says unto the disciples, Sit you here, while I go and pray yonder [over there]. And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee [James and John] and began to be SORROWFUL, AND VERY HEAVY. Then said He unto them, My soul [His fleshly, conscious humanity, not His spirit] is EXCEEDING SORROWFUL, EVEN UNTO DEATH [spirit doesn’t die, it is our flesh that must die]. Tarry [stay] you here, and watch with Me.

And He went a little farther, and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O MY FATHER, IF IT BE POSSIBLE, LET THIS CUP [this cup of death—being beaten beyond recognition, being made sin offering, and crucified for the sins of humanity] pass from Me: NEVERTHELESS, NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS THOU WILL" (Matt. 26:36-39).

"And there appeared an angel unto Him from heaven, strengthening Him. And being in an agony He prayed more earnestly: and His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:43-44).

I doubt that any of us can ever fully appreciate what unfathomable human trauma and agony was taking place for those three hours in the garden that night two thousand years ago. The eternal destiny of the entire human race was at stake, and Jesus KNEW IT! And believe me, Jesus’ Father was agonizing right along with His Son:

"In all their afflictions, He [GOD] was afflicted… in His love and in His pity He redeemed them…" (Isa. 63:9).

"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED" (Heb. 5:.

And oh how Christ was suffering that night in the garden! But right there in the garden is the answer to all prayer. "O MY FATHER… nevertheless, not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL." Jesus not only prayed that way; Jesus thought that way:

"I can of Mine Own Self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not My Own will, but the WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HAS SENT ME" (John 5:30).

And again:

"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine Own will, but the will of HIM THAT SENT ME" (John 6:38).

Did Jesus pray as earnestly as it is possible to pray that God would "let this cup pass?" YES, He did.

Did God grant Jesus His desire to "let this cup pass?" NO, He didn’t.

But, did Jesus get His prayer answered? YES, He surely did. How so? Because Jesus’ greater desire was that His Father’s will be done, rather than "let this cup pass." This example from our Lord is the answer to answered pray and it is also the answer to unanswered prayer.

If you always pray, "not as I will, but as THOU will," all of your prayers will be answered too. Whether you always get what you desire or you don’t get what you desire, if your greatest desire of all desires is for "THY WILL be done," then you can rest assured that from this day forward, all of your prayers will be answered always. God’s will (that is His intention for the way He has preordained everything to go), will always be done. No prayer has ever changed God’s plan or purpose in any way whatsoever. (Read my series on "free will").

Now then, if it was God’s intention for you to be blessed by some particular favor, and God inspires you to pray for that favor then it will surely be given to you. If on the other hand, if it was not God’s intention for you to be blessed by some particular favor, then no amount of praying will cause God to grant it to you. Either way, God’s will must be done, and if that is the greatest desire of your prayer for God’s will to be done in your life, then whether you receive some particular favor or you don’t receive it, nonetheless, YOUR PRAYER WILL BE ANSWERED.

Like Christ, our greater desire when praying is that the Father's Will is done...not our own. In this regards, our prayers are always answered.

Take Ray's health for example. Though the many members of the forum pray earnestly for God to heal Ray, our greater desire is for His Will be done. If that is to heal Ray from all manner of pain and sickness, great! If that is not His Will, who are we to protest as we are the clay and God is the potter? Plus, considering Ray's condition, if it was his time, at least he would not be in any more pain or discomfort.

It takes the spirit of God to have a greater desire of God's intention to be over our own wills. Until He gives one this understanding, this is one of the hardest spiritual truths to accept and endure in. Personally, I've had to read, study, pray, and go over this paper again and again until a small flicker of light went off when He opened my understanding. I can be difficult but nothing is too hard for God. He will show you and open your understanding to this as well, in time.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[KristaD]

What if it is God's will for you to pray and for them to recover?

[Beloved]

Ray addressed that in the same paper, when you pray in God's will then God gave you the desire to pray in His Will.   I have not been woken up to pray for anyone before, so the other night was something new to me. (I am not taking any credit for Rays improvement but glad about the timing)i

On the flip side if the person did not recover after your prayer, your praying was still God's will. Being told No just makes you want to understand His Will even more.

A yes answer is easier to accept and comforms to our desires and it affirms us......but Yes and No answers both should affirm HIM...we are a partner to the former, a spectator to the later. If we prayed in His will, then we do not yet understand His purpose. I suspect that even when we pray and it is answered that we often do not understand fully either but we feel better and that is usually enough.

No one likes to see a loved one die, but God may have other purpose at that time, it is hard to speculate but perhaps it will force you to stand on your own rather than rely on that particular person, perhaps it will point out all the things that you did not have a chance to say and make you more cognizant of all the others around you. Perhaps it was the will of the other person.  We are more possessive about our own families and friends , but can be less sensitive to others in their grief.

I deal with women who often miscarry or lose their babies. It can be hard for them to understand that God has nothing against them or their babies.....so I usually try to help by explaining that there HAS to be a purpose for the occurrence.

Perhaps God is allowing this to show these women that they need to appreciate their ability to procreate and not take it for granted.  Perhaps they need to learn to love their other children more. Perhaps this will cause them to appreciate all life at each end of the spectrum more?  Perhaps it will make them see the politics of abortion or the effect of wars differently. 

They are so many reason why all these things happen.....these things will make a lot more sense later on ...when we are in the deathleness state in the future, it will make our present short lives  seem very small and puny,  especially since we also know that God will bring .....all in all.  All will bow their knees and everything will be to HIS GLORY

Hope this help make sense

Beloved

[Kat]

Hi E. Woods,

Isa 55:9  "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
       So are My ways higher than your ways,
       And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Do we really comprehend the work that God is doing in this world?  He knows the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10), so He has predestined everything to happen according to His will.

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Isn't part of understanding this truth coming to know more about the Father?  So don't we want to seek out our Father in pray and express our thoughts to Him, so He will help us understand His will?

Eph 1:9  having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

We have this tiny short life and we do not know what will happen, so we need His help to understand His will.  I think pray helps align us with His will.  In pray we can kind of enter into the spirit realm and have a greater sense of God, we "draw near to God."

James 4:8  Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

What I'm getting at is I think that it is through pray that we really get to know a certain aspect of God.  So not knowing what will happen is all the more reason to pray, that He may aligns our mind with His will.

James 4:14  whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
v. 15  Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that."

Just some thoughts that I was thinking might help.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Phil3:10]

Kat,
How very true your answers concerning prayer. The best prayer is just to ask GOD'S will to be done. However, as a fleshly human I do find that deep prayer draws me much closer to GOD and I can often be overcome with HIS greatness and power as I pray from the depth of my heart. I think GOD approves of our prayers just as HE does our questions. HE is always willing to supply HIS answer when we are mature enough to understand.  James 4:8 says it all, "Draw near to GOD and HE will draw near to you."  Bless HIS Holy Name.
Phil3:10

[Deborah-Leigh]

God is "responsible" and we are "accountable".

We are able to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because as we notice our motives and actions, we can see if they point us to being carnal or Christ Minded.

We are not helpless puppets. We have a consciousness. We have an awareness.  We can check our consciences to see if our aims and ambitions are for our self gratifications or if they are in line with the Plan and Purpose of God which is to make us into the image of His Son.

Christ overcame the world. Some prefer to render to it all their devotion. This too is part of a process that God has designed.

God can remove us from the time table of the world and bring us into His sanctuary of comprehending and seeing His Plan for us. With the false teaching that we have a free will many still believe that they are the architects of their own plans but they are not. No one can pray unless God causes them to pray. No one can save themselves but some of us have been caused to become more separate to the world and closer to God than others at this time.

Few are chosen many are called. Many pray and do their prayers in the open before an audience. They have their reward. Others simply go within and speak to God or become aware that He is present at all times in every situation and circumstance that is measuring our faith and trust in Him. Ray tells us that he talks to God all day and falls asleep praying and thanking God.

Prayer is a very significant part of communication with God. This communication becomes constant as and when we learn that we can not be anywhere where God is not present. God has to show us that He is everywhere all the time as only He can. When we learn that, then our life will become a ceaseless prayer and prayer as understood by the world will cease to be a once every so often time out with God.

As Kat asks Do we really comprehend the work that God is doing in this world? I would answer no, but we are learning and that is a process.

Arc.

[Ninny]

Sorry this post is kind of Long!
Prayer is such a powerful tool that God has given us. We don't understand what power God has given us in prayer. Prayer doesn't change God's mind, it changes us!
5 years ago my sister had breast cancer, I called her and told her that I was praying for her. She said, "Don't pray for me, God don't want me and the devil is afraid of me!" She was making a joke, but I told her, "Well, I'm going to pray for you anyway!" She has always been really independent and she has NEVER been interested in God. Well we all kept praying for her and after having surgery and chemo, etc. she is cancer free. Now skipping forward to October of this year...
My 2 year old grandson was diagnosed with a brain tumor which devastated us, but we cried out to God and hundreds of people prayed for him. His tumor was removed and it was benign. His little story is really amazing! BUT Here is something that resulted from that, my big bad sister with the breast cancer tells me every time I talk to her "Thank God that his tumor wasn't cancer!"  Now it is December and another of my sisters was diagnosed with lung cancer, now the breast cancer surviving sister sent my 11 year old grandson an email and here is the exchange first with what my grandson wrote to her and then her reply to him:

Dear Aunt Lola (the breast cancer survivor), I am praying for all of my family, I love you.
Love, Justin
the reply..
Dear Justin, thank you, please pray for Aunt Mary (lung cancer sister), I have faith in your prayers.
Love, Aunt Lola

If you knew my sister (Lola) you would really be amazed at that simple sentence, I have faith in your prayers. Then on Wed of this last week my sister with the lung cancer (Mary) had surgery and it was a huge tumor they removed the lower right lobe of her lung and then the doctor said, "No need for chemo or radiation." he said there was no involvement in any other tissues or lymph nodes so at this time as far as he can tell the cancer is gone. My sister Lola, in the meantime is marveling that this has happened! How far does God have to go to draw us to Him? Why do things happen the way they do? If we knew it all we would be dumbfounded by our amazing God!

So I truly believe that God ultimately uses everything that happens to us to make us realize that without Him we are nothing..He uses prayer to let us know our frailties because when we pray and call out to him we are learning that He is the One who gives life and He is in control of all things. I am thankful to Him for planting in us the desire to cry out to Him in prayer. It is His way of directing our thoughts toward Him, that is His will for us. Like Ray says, when we pray for His will to be done our prayers are always answered, even if we think they are not! Keep praying for the sick because we are told that the prayer of faith will heal the sick and God will lift him up! We may not know exactly WHAT that means, but we know that God is faithful! God is absolutely trustworthy! All of our questions will be answered one day.
Keep praying!
Kathy

[Deborah-Leigh]

As you say Ninny, God causes our circumstances to draw us to come to know Him and realise that without Him we can do nothing. Here is another example:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.0.html
2 Kings 20:1  In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus said the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shall die, and not live.
v. 2  Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, 

Now notice that He didn’t set any conditions here.  But again the sum of God word is true.  What did we read in Malachi?  “Return unto me and I will return unto you.”  But that sounds like that could be a contradiction of ‘God doesn’t change.’  God knew whether they would return unto Him, because He knows the end form the beginning.  Can’t you see how damnable these doctrines are? 

If you say you can change the mind of God, then you are saying that God doesn’t know what he’s doing.  He doesn’t know how to do it right the first time and there are all kinds of options open and sometimes the worse ones happen rather than the best ones.  Because man and his free will doesn’t do what would bring about a better solution to man’s problems and all that.  It’s all nonsense.  He already knows the end from the beginning.  “But who believes our report” like Isaiah says.  Who believes the word of God?  Well not many.

2 Kings 20:3  I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in Your sight.  And Hezekiah wept sore.
v. 4  And it came to pass, before Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
v. 5  Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of My people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shall go up unto the house of the LORD.
v. 6  And I will add unto thy days fifteen years;

Here’s what we fail to understand, we don’t believe that the sum of God’s word is Truth like it says in the Psalms.

Psa 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth…

We don’t believe the Scripture that says God knows the end from the beginning.

Isa 46:10  declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;

We don’t believe it when it says, God does not change.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not;

We don’t believe it when it says, God is not a man that He should lie nor repent.

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that He should lie;  neither the son of man, that He should repent:

We don’t believe any of those Scriptures, that’s why we come up with things like, ‘well God told him he was going to die, but then he prayed to Him and God just said okay I change My mind and in fact I’ll give you 15 more years.  God never changed His mind!  He knew that Hezekiah would pray to Him and He knew that He would then tell him I’ll give you fifteen more years.  He already knew that, He didn’t change His mind, He knew that this is the only way that this scenario is going.  Because He knows the end from the beginning.  From the beginnning He already knows what the end is.  He already knows that Hezekiah is going to fall on his face and beg for forgiveness from Him and then He will say okay.  He didn’t change His mind. 

[Marlene]

Hello, A few years back, I had an experience like Beloved. God woke me and I began to Pray for my Husband. It was kind of strange to me then. I felt my Husband was in a bad situation. I prayed for him and I never found out why I prayed that for over a year. Beloved, mentioned that it could be sometime latter before we can understand why we prayed like that. To be asleep and woke up by God is a powerful thing indeed. I learned many things from that experience. I know now that God did that to build my trust in him.

There has been many times in my life I prayed and God answered my prayers the way I prayed for. That, was because it was in his will. I have prayed other times and not got what I asked for. Now, I know it was Gods will and he knew best.

I do think for Beloved to experience God waking her is quite an experience. I know, what that feels like. All, I can say is in time we all on here may see the purpose of her having this experience. Whatever, the outcome it will be Gods will and that can never be wrong. I have come to Love Ray from the moment I believed the truths he presented which are Gods. I love all my forum friends and value them. I love when they are able to help me understand better. I believe everyone who walks with God in truth has many things to offer each other as we are all a part of the Body of Christ. We all have different gifts. It is a Great God we serve.

In His Love,
Marlene

[hummer]

Marques, Beloved, Kat, Phil 3:10, Arc, Kathy, and Marlene

 Thank you all for the happiness you brought to me this morning as your answers to E Woods and Kristy caused tears to flow.

 Hummer

[Phil3:10]

Marlene, Arcturus, Kat, Beloved, and all,
What wonderful understanding you all manifest!  GOD is, and will always be in total control of everything.  HE created the Universe and all that is in it, from the sun to the smallest virus. If mankind could only comprehend the total work of GOD in this world how wonderful a world we could live in. However, GOD is in total control and HE is working out all things according to HIS will.
A better understanding of the salvation of all and the lack of free will has made my life something that I could never find in the "church system" and I thank Ray Smith and this forum for helping me understand what a wonderful, powerful and loving GOD we serve.
IN HIM,
Phil3:10