Church today...

[Kat]

Hi Pinko,

That was a spot on first post, I totally agree, we are all exactly where God intended for us to be.
I am glad you have joined us and hope you will continue fellowshipping with us here 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[iris]

Hi Pinko,

Welcome to the forum!

Good post!

Hope to hear more from you.


Iris

[judith collier]

Thank you Pinko. I need to believe that and reading about free will and maybe reading it again will help cement this thought more firmly. But I was taught about free will differently, God's perfect will and God's permissive will. But I always believed God would "work all things for good to those who believe" This situation I am in just doesn't seem to have worked out very "good" I do not know what good is being accomplished here except for the fact 2 blind men have me as their caretaker which I sometimes resent  so badly I could scream! People are always saying, " I don't know how you do it" at which point I say "you have to believe there is a God if you see ME doing this" So, maybe that's it, but not sure. And I don't even do it that well but then again my standards are so high you would have to have a rocket to shoot them down. I am babbling here.

[OBrenda]

  Hi Judith,

We usually don't understand "WHY" until we look back on it.
You are learning priceless spiritual lessons, let me encourage you, your treasures are stored up in Heaven.

Matthew 6:19
"Stop storing up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. But keep on storing up treasures for yourselves in heaven, where moths and rust do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal, because where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Mark 9:35
So he sat down, called his twelve disciples, and told them, "If anyone wants to be first he must be last of all and servant of all."

And although I  agree with what has been shared I would like to add to this for Fester & Judith & My Understanding!

1 Corinthians 9:19
Although I am free from everyone's expectations, I have made myself a servant to all of them to win more people.
To the Jews I became like a Jew in order to win Jews.
To those under the law I became like a man under the law, in order to win those under the law
(although I myself am not under the law).
To those who do not have the law, I became like a man who does not have the law in order to win those who do not have the law.
However, I am not free from God's law, but I'm subject to the Messiah's law.

To the weak I became weak in order to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some of them.  I do all this for the sake of the gospel in order to have a share in its blessings.

You know that in a race all the runners run but only one wins the prize, don't you? You must run in such a way that you may be victorious.  Everyone who enters an athletic contest practices self-control in everything. They do it to win a wreath that withers away, but we run to win a prize that never fades. {Treasures in Heaven}

2 Corinthians 6:14
Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness?  What harmony exists between the Messiah and Beliar, or what do a believer and an unbeliever have in common?  What agreement can a temple of God (we are the Temple) make with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said: "I will live and walk among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people."  Therefore, "Get away from them and separate yourselves from them," declares the Lord, "and don't touch anything unclean. Then I will welcome you.

2 Timothy 2:15Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I always need to pray for God's Grace & Understanding...Seeking to be lead by the Holy Spirit to be a Light in this world.  To correctly descern the Will of God when we are learning to apply all these scriptures to our walk/situation.

Sorry for being so long-winded,
Brenda

[Kat]

Hi Judy,

Let me share with you a little, so as maybe my experience may help you a bit.  My marriage situation is by no means ideal, my husband is not a believer.  But at this point I have graciously accepted what God has given me and am thankful for the many blessings I have.  But a few years ago I did not have this state of mind at all, I literally was miserable and wanted out of my totally unfulfilling marriage very badly.  But I was a stay at home mom and never developed a career, so I was kind of stuck.  I had developed major resentments towards my husband, that I had been trying to overcome, but I just couldn't.

Well 3 years ago I 'stumbled' across Ray's teachings at Bible Truths, it was then that God opened my eyes.  For about 7 months I spent every minute I could reading for hours every single day.  I was seeing one profound truth after the other, my heart was overjoyed and I just could not get enough, still can't.

So soon after I came to the BT site, my whole attitude change almost instantly.  The resentment that was greatly hampering my relationship with my husband just fail away.  Though he is still not what I would consider the ideal loving mate, he is the one that God prepared for me and is a very good provider among other good qualities.  Even though sometimes I do look on him as a thorn in my side, because of his blatant carnal attitude.  But I also see that as a means that God is using to teach me as to how better to deal with adversity.  We all have our cross to bear and it is meant to be difficult.  I am trying to be the best wife I can be and build character at the same time.

Mat 5:43  "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
v. 44  But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
v. 45  that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
v. 46  For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
v. 47  And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
v. 48  Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

I do not really consider my husband my enemy, but sometimes he does provoke my spirit and it is teaching me self-control and that is a good thing.  It is indeed a daily effort to be content in all things.

Php 4:11  Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[judith collier]

Thamks Brenda and Kat. Sometimes one feels like they are all alone, so this has helped. Many people don't talk about their troubles and consequently a person thinks "what did I do to deserve this"  I think Brenda said something about "dividing the word" and that is my goal so that I will be studying more. And self control is not my shining virtue but it is getting better, I can let go easier and I do trust God more than I used to. I was just so afraid I missed what I was supposed to do and many things I didn't do because of fear and figured if I hadn't been so afraid I would have had a blessed life but that is not neccessarily so. God would have found me anywhere and finished His works in me. And boy, did he have a lot to do! I am one who needs much good teaching and when I get it(and I seem to know the truth when I hear it) I do go with it. Most of what I know is self taught and Spirit led but that is not the smartest way all the time for we need each other and different perspectives reminding us what is true, so thanks again guys. I think I got it now(at least this part) (chuckle) I'll probably carry on some more in the future though, it's never ending with me. Judy

[aqrinc]

Hi Judith,

Here is one of the best answers from another member; quite eye opening for many.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9021.msg75379.html#msg75379 post #9

george.

[Deborah-Leigh]

That post from Alex #9 really shows the light.

[Dennis Vogel]

Sorry to be the grinch but the reason we are here is because we have been pulled from there.
Hope to get your attention; why do we keep going back to where we have been dragged from.

Revelation of John 14:8:
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she
made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation of John 18:2:
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become
the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 

Revelation of John 18:4:
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers
of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.

george.

Well George, I see it a little differently.  My wife and children love to go to church (Baptist) and are all caught up in it.  I go with them as we are family, and as such, we try and do things together.  I print off a few of Ray's papers and read them during the service.  It is great reading time!  So although I am physically in church I do not partake of her.  I speak with my family now and then about the things that I have learned but I do not force it on them.  I hope those little seeds will grow within them.  Coming to the truth was a process for me and I realize that it will be for them as well.  So spiritually I am out of her and hope to rescue my family from her too.  Hopefully, the day will come where we will just stay home and study as a family.  So we cannot just think of ourselves all the time but our loved ones as well.  So let's not be too harsh on the church goers as they may also have reasons valid to them to still attend.  Plus we don't know where they are in their spiritual development/learning.  But we do know God will pull us out at His appointed time.
Wes

P.S. They don't have Bibles in the pews but do have a few spares for those who may request one.

Fester, the day will come when you cannot get out of that building fast enough. It's not the "church goers" as you say, but the system, the false doctrines, the outright heresy being taught to decent people (blind sheep) that will run you out.

God will drag you out of that building sooner or later. Just a matter of time. But don't expect you family to give it up.

Those of us who have been around for a few years cringe at the thought of sitting through a church service (again, it's not the people). It's like water and oil, we do not mix.

Dennis

[Ninny]

Dennis, that is so true! Talk about feeling out of place! Yes even though the people are precious, you have a hard time trying to tell anyone that you have nothing against the people! Everyone always assumes you have been offended by someone and that's why you left! 
Kathy

[aqrinc]

There are many symbols in Revelation that shout at us without really yelling. This particular Scripture
needs more attention because He (The Angel Of God) CRIED MIGHTILY with A STRONG VOICE.
That is very strong language compared to many other Scriptures, almost as if it is Urgent to COME OUT NOW..

Don't know if Ray has placed any Emphasis on this particular verse about the urgent tone. This must be really
important to heed at this very time.


Revelation of John 18:2:
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become
the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

george.

[aqrinc]

Here are three other translations of the same verse;

Rotherham:    And he cried out, with a mighty voice, saying—Fallen! fallen! is Babylon the Great, and hath become a habitation of demons, and a prison of every impure spirit, and a prison of every impure and hated bird;
_______
RNKJV:    And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
_______
BWE:    He called in a loud voice and said, 'The big city of Babylon has fallen down! It has fallen down! Bad spirits live in it. All bad spirits hide there. And all kinds of dirty birds that people hate hide there.

george.

[Jackie Lee]

I tell you for me there was offense not with the people but with the teaching and the begging for your last dime.
The last night I went to a revival meeting in a pentcostal church I knew I would never go back, it was a time in my life that God showed me get out.
I have never regretted it, not one day.
I do get pretty aggravated though when people beg me to go to church, but that is happening less all the time.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Until Babylon is quote : FALLEN  ( fallen as seen by the observer....) it remains as the seduction that Scripture describes which will be how those INSIDE Babylon perceive it as Babylon THE GREAT and the BIG CITY of Babylon. These are all very impressive attributes for those who are still mesmerised by the tricks and trinkets IN Harlot Babylon.

For those who have COME OUT of Babylon, it is as the Scriptures say,   a FALLEN habitation of demons where all bad spirits hide. Those who are still INSIDE Babylon will not be able to see that it is a habitation of demons where ALL BAD SPIRITS that people hate are HIDDEN.

It is declared that Babylon is fallen . Some do not see it yet. Eventually everyone will see. All will eventually see that God is not a liar.

~We are all Gods creation. When God says Babylon is fallen it is fallen. It is just a matter WHEN God says AND WHEN we return to our First Love. It is in Gods appointed time when blind eyes shall open and deaf ears shall be unplugged by the Spirit of God. It is only by the Spirt of God that any can see, hear or comprehend.

Many at this time are not yet given to either see or hear which is in Gods Plan and Purpose that non can thwart.

Arc

[judith collier]

Got a question. What do you guys do as far as receiving the physical communion (bread and wine) There was never anything that made me FEEL closer to our Lord than going to receive the body and blood and He did say "do this in remembrance of me" Thanks

[aqrinc]

Hi Arc,

You write it so much better than i can express, yes after over 40 years the Scriptures are now
my life. Of course my wife thinks Ray has me hoodwinked even when we read direct for the Bible.
But she listens and every so often her language is shifting by little bits and pieces away from
Hagee and Meyers and O'steen. I know all will be done in God's timing but it is so very difficult to
wait sometimes. That is where longsuffering and patience has to be developed i know.

Anyway enough of my complaining, good to see you out there.

george.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Gods Words are Spirit and Truth. The Devils words are literal lies and point to works not to living by faith.

Taking up your cross and following Christ is NOT a feel good path. It is a path of suffering, intense suffering, trials and much tribulation through which we enter the Kingdom of God. This is not what you will hear in that Church but you will see and hear it in The Church that God is making into His Temple.

There are two kinds of Church "The" church vs. "My" Church ref LOF Part V111. "The" Church of feel good intentions is not Christs Church of learning obedience through suffering. I too enjoyed daily communion in the Catholic Church but got dragged out and am still learning obedience. No one has got it perfect yet except Christ Jesus who is our Faith and assurance.

The path is not easy because trials and tribulations do not feel good but they result in glorious rewards Heb 12 : 11 For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful: but after wards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.


Arc

[Dennis Vogel]

Got a question. What do you guys do as far as receiving the physical communion (bread and wine) There was never anything that made me FEEL closer to our Lord than going to receive the body and blood and He did say "do this in remembrance of me" Thanks

Hi Judith,

We do not do anything physical. You are right in emphasizing "FEEL" because that's what it is, a feeling, an emotion.

The church uses emotion to create feelings which put you in a mood that more easily allows them to exploit you.

Music is the best example. Many churches start out with upbeat songs and then slowly morph into slow emotional songs designed to put you in the mood to give.

I've been to many movies that made me very emotional but I did not confuse that deliberate attempt by the movie makers to make me emotional with personal a visit from God because I knew better.

The church uses the physical in a deliberate attempt to make you emotional, but the sheep have no clue.

Dennis

[Phil3:10]

Dennis, Arc, Judith and all others,
My wife, and two precious grandchildren, are in a Baptist church right now as I have spent my Sunday morning in this forum and in HIS word. I have reached the point that I cannot attend a Babylonian church service as the untruths and attempts to emotionally attract uninformed attendees makes me sick all over. It would be so much easier to just go and attempt to ignore the untruths but I have reached the point that even attending a funeral is very difficult. I know that I have been completely called out of the Babylonian Church System. Thanks be to GOD!
CHRIST did not desire a church or religion, HE just asks that we love, obey, and worship in spirit and in truth the ONE who is EVERYTHING.
The Babylonian Church System worships doctrine and man's traditions. How wonderful it is to know that GOD has me where HE wants me right now and that I do not have a burden to attempt to win others. HE wills, HE calls, and HE does all that HE wills.
Just writing this badly worded reply brings me closer to HIM that is ALL than I ever came to HIM within the Babylonian System. I do think HE will someday call all out of this system and I praise HIM for calling me out.  Even though I do feel pain, especially when I am not with my grandchildren, I am fully convinced that HE has me where HE wants me right now.
Sharing in the fellowship of HIS suffering is not easy but is required.
IN HIM,
Phil3:10

[Linny]

Hi Judith,

Here is an email answer by Ray that I thought might be helpful to you...

"Is it the fact that you find a Scripture stating something in the Word of God that you conclude that we should "do it?"

I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wishes to keep the Lord's supper. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to be circumcised or be baptized. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to sacrifice animals or offer sin offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and the like.

Gen. 6:14 commands:  "Make THEE an ark of gopher wood...." I have nothing against anyone who wants to follow this command and "Make an  ark of gopher wood."

There are hundreds of things commanded in the Scriptures. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to do ALL OF THEM. I don't. I never made an ark of gopher wood, and never intend to. 

Any just why don't "I" do any of these things? Well, actually I used to do some of them. I used to pay my THREE tithes (oh you didn't know that there were THREE tithes?). I was water baptized. I used to wash my brothers feet, and I used to partake of the Lord's supper once a year. And now I don't. Why not? Because there is absolutely nothing physical that can make one spiritual.

Paul baptized at one time in his ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.

Paul used to circumcise in his early ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.

All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances. We are now under the "Law of the Spirit of Life." "We know longer know Jesus after the FLESH." Jesus HIMSELF said: "The flesh profits NOTHING." "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."

Although it was mighty important in Christ's time to worship in THIS mountain or in THAT mountain, Jesus Himself said that the time would come (and so it has) that we no longer worship here or there or in this manner or in that manner, with this set of physical rituals, or with that set of physical rituals, but rather WE WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.

We are to WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH! Now then, does anyone think that we can add to those instructions by adding a few physical, carnal, rituals? I think not.

I hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray