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[Fester]

Hello all,
 
Frequently I run into these two concepts on this site and forums:

"A woman in Scripture is a symbol for a church."
 
"Babylon is the church."
 
I have searched the site and have not found the scriptural, two witness, rock solid proofs, to back them both up.  They each need at least two I believe. I see these concepts used frequently in the forums and figured that you folks toss them around so much that you would easily be able to provide this for me.  I would like to have these proofs so that when I speak of these things to others, I can back them up.
 
Thanks in advance to all those who reply.
 
Fester
 

[mharrell08]

Hello all,
 
Frequently I run into these two concepts on this site and forums:

"A woman in Scripture is a symbol for a church."
 
"Babylon is the church."
 
I have searched the site and have not found the scriptural, two witness, rock solid proofs, to back them both up.  They each need at least two I believe. I see these concepts used frequently in the forums and figured that you folks toss them around so much that you would easily be able to provide this for me.  I would like to have these proofs so that when I speak of these things to others, I can back them up.
 
Thanks in advance to all those who reply.
 
Fester

Gal Chapter 4:22-26

22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Entire chapter of Ezekiel 23 (but I will post an excerpt)

Ezekial 23

1  The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2  Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

3  And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

4  And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.


Entire chapter of Jeremiah 3 (but I will post an excerpt)

Jeremiah 3

6  The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

7  And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

8  And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

9  And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.


Entire chapter of Ezekial 16 (but I will post an excerpt from LOF #6)

Throughout chapter 16 [of Ezekial], God likens Jerusalem as a young virgin bride that He takes to Himself:

"Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon you, behold your time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over you, and covered your nakedness: yes, I swore unto you and entered into a covenant with you, saith the Lord God, and YOU BECAME MINE" (Verse 8 ).

"And I put a jewel on your forehead, and earrings in your ears, and a beautiful crown upon your head. Thus were you decked with gold and silver; and your raiment was of fine line, and silk, and broidered work; you didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and you were exceeding beautiful, and you did prosper into a kingdom. And your renown went forth among the heathen for they beauty: for it was PERFECT through my comeliness, which I had put upon you, says the Lord God" (Verses 12-14).

Was Jerusalem thankful to God? Did Jerusalem worship and adore God as a Perfect Husband? No:

"But you did trust in YOUR OWN beauty, and PLAYED THE HARLOT because of your renown and poured out your FORNICATIONS on everyone that passed by … and played the HARLOT … and did commit WHOREDOM with them … Is this of your WHOREDOMS a small matter … And in all your ABOMINATIONS and your WHOREDOMS you have not remembered the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, and was polluted in your blood. And it came to pass after all your WICKEDNESS (WOE, WOE unto you! Saith the Lord God … opened your feet [spread your legs] to every one that passed by and MULTIPLIED YOUR WHOREDOMS. You have also committed FORNICATION WITH THE EGYPTIANS your neighbours … You have played the WHORE also with the Assyrians … You have moreover multiplied your FORNICATION in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea … How weak is your heart, saith the Lord God, seeing you do all these things, the work of an IMPERIOUS [a female fox, arrogant, malicious] WHORISH WOMAN … as a wife that commits ADULTERY, which takes strangers [heathen religions and gods] instead of her husband [God] … but you give your gifts to ALL WHORES; but you give your gifts [of sexual favors] to ALL YOUR LOVERS, and hire them, that they may come unto you on every side for your WHOREDOM" (Verses 15-32).

God is not pleased with His harlot wife, and pronounces terrible woes upon her:

JERUSALEM’S SPIRITUAL SISTER IS SODOM

"Wherefore, O HARLOT, hear the word of the Lord: Thus saith the Lord God; Because your FILTHLINESS was poured out, and your NAKEDNESS discovered through your WHOREDOMS with your lovers, and with all the IDOLS OF YOUR ABOMINATIONS…"

Etc., etc. (Verses 35-36). But it gets WORSE:

"thou art your mother’s daughter, that LOATHES her husband and her children; and you are the sister of your sisters, which loathed their husbands and their children: your mother was a Hittite, and your father an Amorite. And your elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at your left hand: and your younger sister, that dwells at your right hand, is SODOM and her daughters." (Verse 45-46).


One final excerpt from LOF #6 speaking directly about Babylon with many scriptural witnesses:

Have we forgotten how that later mankind once again regrouped under one central government? There was a time in ancient history when officials gather the educated and scholars from around the world, and once again shared philosophies, religions, laws, sciences, and other academia at a central location which they would then once more take back to their respective countries and share, worldwide? And what was that great nation called? That’s right, BABYLON! But that great Gold-Headed Kingdom also came crashing down under the Medes and the Persians. Well guess what? Babylon is rising once more. This time God calls it:

"MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17:5).

Notice that this Great Whore is a "mother of harlots." She is a mother who has harlots for daughters. This is the very same thing that we read in Ezekiel 16: 48,

"As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister has not done, she nor her daughters, as you [Jerusalem] has done, YOU [Jerusalem—a MOTHER] and your DAUGHTERS."

Any woman who has "daughters" is of necessity, a "mother."

Now for a real shocker! From where does God call HIS people? The answer shocked me.

"BABYLON THE GREAT is fallen, is fallen… For ALL NATIONS have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication … And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come OUT of her, MY PEOPLE that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:2-4)!

Wow! Can you believe it? God calls HIS PEOPLE, HIS SAINTS, HIS ELECT, HIS CHURCH, OUT OF "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH"!! That’s where the Apostles came from, that’s where Paul came from, that’s where the small persecuted church down through the ages came from, that where every believer I know came from, and that’s where I came from. I, in fact, followed and obeyed several of her harlots in the process of coming out of Babylon. I was no better than the worst of sinners. It is only by God’s grace that we are able to escape this system. And God will continue to call His elect out of that very system until He destroys it in His presence.

So clearly, the Mother Whore Jerusalem has HARLOT DAUGHTERS! And of the great religious system spoken of in Revelation 17 we also clearly see that MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, is a Mother Whore of Harlot Daughters! One has to be spiritually blind as a bat to not see that when we compare "Spiritual with spiritual," these two are a "spiritual MATCH!" More proof:

The one True Church of the Living God has a "Father" and a "Mediator—Jesus Christ." But does God’s Church have a "Mother?" Ah, Yes, it surely does:

"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory [a representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters] for these are the TWO COVENANTS; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar IS [now a metaphor—‘is like, in certain ways’] mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to JERUSALEM which NOW IS [at the time Paul wrote this and continues to this day] and is in BONDAGE with her children. But Jerusalem which is ABOVE ["The HEAVENLY JERUSALEM" Heb. 12:22] is free, which is THE MOTHER OF US ALL" (Gal. 4:22-26).

What amazing Scriptures these are. The New Covenant Church of the Living God has a MOTHER—HEAVENLY JERUSALEM ABOVE. And the giant Old Covenant Whore Church also has a mother—EARTHLY JERUSALEM BELOW. The New is FREE, whereas the Old is in BONDAGE. But how can I say that the Old Covenant Church is "huge?" Aren’t there only a relatively few orthodox Jews around the world who keep the "Old" Covenant? No, there are BILLIONS of people who keep the "Old" Covenant around the world. There are almost no Christians that understand and keep the "New" Covenant. To the world of Christendom, the Old Covenant IS THE NEW COVENANT! The New Covenant is merely keeping the Old Covenant, BETTER! That’s right. To most, the New Covenant consists of keeping the Old Covenant, better. They say that they now keep the Old Covenant "in the spirit." Just how, pray tell, does one keep the "physical" in the "spirit?"

Such a doctrine is utter unscriptural contradictory nonsense. You cannot keep the "physical" in the "spirit." THERE IS NO SPIRIT IN THE PHYSICAL, SO HOW COULD ONE ‘KEEP IT’ IF IT DOESN’T EXIST? We are all born with a physical [carnal] mind. It is possible to keep physical [carnal] laws with a physical carnal mind (Paul did it to near perfection when he was Saul!). But one CANNOT keep God’s spiritual laws with a physical carnal mind!

"Because the carnal [natural physical] mind is enmity [deep seated HATRED] AGAINST God; for it is NOT subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

"For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace" (Rom. 8:6).

Let’s be sure that we are perfectly clear on these Scriptural facts:

Paul said that there ARE RIGHT NOW, TWO Jerusalem's in existence.

One answers to the New Covenant, which is HEAVENLY JERUSALEM ABOVE.

One answers to the Old Covenant, which is EARTHLY JERUSALEM IN ISRAEL.

If you think that you can spiritually keep the physical laws of Moses, then your mother is the Old Covenant which answers to "Jerusalem which now is—IN BONDAGE."

But if you are keeping God’s spiritual laws through the spirit of God, then your mother is "Heavenly Jerusalem ABOVE which is—FREE."

Of course the fact that Jerusalem is TWICE as wicked and abominable as Sodom does not in any way justify the sins of Sodom. No, God will deal with both Jerusalem and Sodom. And that is the whole point of this discussion. So even though the sins of Jerusalem are twice as abominable as the sins of Sodom, God will, nonetheless, SAVE JERUSALEM! And just when will God save Jerusalem? AT THE SAME TIME THAT HE SAVES SODOM. Yes, Sodom WILL BE SAVED, and she will be saved at the same time that doubly corrupt and abominable Jerusalem will be saved. Now least anyone think that I harbor ill feelings toward Jerusalem for writing these things, let me make it abundantly clear where these things came from. It is GOD, and not I, Who calls Jerusalem, Sodom and Egypt, and not only historically, but prophetically as well.

"When your sisters, SODOM and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then THOU [JERUSALEM] and thy daughters shall return to YOUR former estate" (Verse 55).

"Then you shall remember your ways, and be ashamed, when you shall receive your sisters, your elder [Samaria] and your younger [SODOM]: and I will give them [Samaria and Sodom] unto you for daughters, but not by your covenant. And I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall KNOW [for the first time] that I am the Lord: That you may remember, and be confounded, and never open your mouth any more because of your shame, when I am PACIFIED [make atonement, to pardon, to placate, to cover, to condone] TOWARD THEE [Jerusalem AND her sisters, Samaria and Sodom] for all that you have done, saith the Lord God" (Verses 61-63).

When God purges the hearts and minds of the wicked with His all-consuming spiritual fire, they will be UTTERLY ASHAMED! Notice what God says in Revelation 14:10 regarding anyone who is a part of this one world religious system:

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God [seeing that "For ALL nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of HER fornication…" Rev. 18:3], which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented [UTTERLY ASHAMED—spiritual and mental torment] with the fire and brimstone [God DIVINE spiritual fire] in the presence of the holy angels, and in THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB" (Rev. 14:10).

They are going to have to face their sins and wickedness and hypocrisy, NOT in the presence of GOD ALMIGHTY, but in the presence of "the LAMB!" How embarrassing and shameful it will be for all those being purged in the God’s spiritual consuming lake of fire to see and acknowledge their whole life of sin in the very presence of the Lamb of God Who DIED FOR THEM! Every heart in the universe will melt like snow in a furnace when they face the LAMB OF GOD in their judgment!

So, is Sodom right now suffering in some fabled hell fires? NO. Is Jerusalem of old right now suffering in some fabled hell fires? NO. Will Sodom and Jerusalem be saved TOGETHER? YES, in the second resurrection, at the white throne judgment, in the lake of fire. The lake of divine spiritual fire will bring salvation to ALL THE NATIONS! "…but he himself [whomever of the billions of people purged in God’s spiritual fire] shall be SAVED; yet so as BY [God’s spiritual consuming] FIRE"! (I Cor. 3:15).

Remember that there are two administrations of God’s purging fire: The first is on the House of God consisting of those whom God is calling to be overcomers and sons of God. The second will be at the second resurrection and white throne judgment in the lake of God’s divine purging fire. All the children of the bondwoman, the Old Covenant, the Mother Whore with her harlot daughters, will one day be the children of Heavenly Jerusalem Above, which is the MOTHER OF US ALL!

Hope this helps,

Marques

[aqrinc]

It sure helps me Marques,

Every time i read these same words clearer understanding of The Scriptures result.

Thanks, george.

[Kat]

Hi Fester,

Here is a couple of emails to add to what Maques has posted.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6335.0.html ---------

>I do have a question for you about the mystery,
> Babylon the Great, in rev 17:5. When I read further
> down in verse 18, it said that "the woman whom you saw
> is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the
> earth". It doesn't speak as though she was a
> religious system as you've stated. Could you give more
> insight that I may have missed?

Ray's reply:
A "city" in this case is used of a "religion."  See Gal. 4:25-31--Jerusalem in Israel and Jerusalem ABOVE are two women--two RELIGIONS; two CHURCHES.
 

http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#Islamic -------------------

It is interesting that you picked Islam and Judaism to know their fate. I am curios as to why you didn't include Christianity in this list?

The Islamic faith bears no resemblance to the Teaching of Jesus Christ and the Apostles.   There is but ONE NAME under heaven by which men MUST be saved, and that name is Jesus Christ.  All those who reject Jesus Christ, He will reject them. Not for eternity, but in their first life. Islam is decidedly NOT the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Judaism is a totally corrupted version of the religion of the Old Testament Israelites. The Jews, likewise, as a nation, as a race, and as a religion, TOTALLY reject Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Jesus will, likewise, reject them. Not eternally, but in their first life.

Now then, Pastor, we have a far larger and far greater and far more evil religion extent in the world today that either Islam or Judaism. Gee, who could they be?

"And the woman [a woman is used symbolically to represent a church in Scripture] was clothed with purple and scarlet, and gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, brimming with ABOMINATIONS and the UNCLEANNESS of the PROSTITUTION of her and the earth. And on her forehead is written a name:

Secret
Babylon the Great
the mother of prostitutes
and the abominations
of the earth"
(Rev. 17:4-5).

Now notice Rev. 18:4,

"And I hear another voice out of heaven, saying, 'Come out of her, My people, lest you should be joint participants of her sins, and lest you should be getting of her calamities, for her sins WERE PILED UP TO HEAVEN, and God remembers her injuries."

Do you see that God plead with "HIS PEOPLE" to come out of her?  What great religious system of this earth is God pleading for His people to COME OUT OF?  Islam?  Judaism?  Hinduism?  Confucianism?   Jehovah's Witnesses?  Mormonism? Hardly.

Notice again,

"Hither! I shall be showing you the sentence of the GREAT PROSTITUTE who is sitting on MANY WATERS [peoples and nations], with whom the KINGS OF THE EARTH [this church is not off in a corner some place, she is consuming the very 'KINGS OF THE EARTH'], commit PROSTITUTION [spiritual idolatry], and those dwelling on the earth [that's a lot of people, Pastor, 'THOSE DWELLING ON THE EARTH'] are made DRUNK [spiritually] with the wine of her PROSTITUTION." (Rev. 17:1-2).

What HUGE religion is blanketing the earth like no other religion in the history of the world? 

What religion teaches the most hideous and damnable false doctrines far worse than an pagan or heathen religion in the history of the world?   

Which religion teaches that Jesus Christ is NOT THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, THAT HE WILL NOT SAVE SINNERS, THAT HIS MISSION WILL BE A FAILURE AND A SHAME, AND THAT HE WILL, IN FACT, THROW BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF MEN AND WOMEN AND BOYS AND GIRLS INTO A HELLHOLE OF FIRE AND BARBECUE MOST OF HUMANITY FOR ALL ETERNITY WITHOUT HOPE OR WITHOUT MERCY???

Now maybe you are beginning to see where God is going to lay much blame for the darkness of spiritual deception covering the world today.

Hope this helps your understanding a little better. 

Thank God there is coming a white throne judgment and lake of purifying FIRE to cleanse the world of all the carnal-minded darkness that mankind has wallowed in for centuries.

May God continue to guide you into His perfect will for your life!

Sincerely,

Ray

[martincisneros]

When I read through the book of Revelation, Mystery Babylon seems more like an economic system than a religious one, and Paul did say that it's the love and coveting of money that's the root of all evil.  And religion doesn't seem nearly as drunk with the blood of the saints as economic interests, oppressive jobs (i.e. James chapter 5 about the cries of workers reaching the ears of the Lord of Hosts), stock markets, credit card companies, etc.  All religious institutions are, whether they have a penny or quadrillions of dollars are organized attempts at spreading a paradigm, whether it's Hindu, Christian (or some version of Christianity), Buddhist, etc.  And I'm not denying that there's as much corruption in Churches as there is in the secular market 'cause I've preached to them before, but...

How does it follow that religious mechanisms for spreading a version of anyone's message is the only thing that God would be calling His people out of when the economy, politics, the media, some aspects of the healthcare field, some aspects of manufacturing and farming,(as in the recent scares over lead paint and bad produce,) and entertainment are the things that are twice the sons of Hell as any Church or religious organization has ever been?  Just because Jesus and the Apostles had to butt heads with the religious institutions of their day, does it automatically follow that if there's anything to a futurist view of prophecy that "Mystery Babylon" would automatically be anything approximating religion as we know it today?

[aqrinc]

Hi Martincisneros,

Short answer is all that economic stuff is physical and not trying to compete with the Gospel of The Kingdom.
The Religions of The World All teach man's way to be God and perverts all the good things from God for their
own version of immortal mankind. Commerce is how we in the physical world work and live and learn even when
in the control of oppressive people or government. Ray and The Scriptures make the point that God is calling
man out of Christendom in this age. Btw if you notice Religion today is the big business, who gets 10% + 10%
+ 10% and provide nothing but lies and distortions other than politics today. At least business pays it workers
something for their time and effort.

Now that is my 2 cents worth of understanding, what is yours.

george.

[martincisneros]

Short answer is all that economic stuff is physical and not trying to compete with the Gospel of The Kingdom.

The economic stuff is the only thing that tries to compete with the Gospel of the Kingdom on the mass scale that it does in fighting for the attention of every believer.  While they're worried about their bills, how they're going to feed their kids or send them to college, then obviously the Word has departed from before their eyes, from their ears, from their hearts, and their hands and feet aren't moving in the direction of the Word day and night while they're living hand to mouth and suspicious of preachers that are getting a bit too close to what they have in their hands.

The Religions of The World All teach man's way to be God and perverts all the good things from God for their own version of immortal mankind. Commerce is how we in the physical world work and live and learn even when in the control of oppressive people or government.

Again, the deceitfulness of riches.  The rich prosper in the world while the righteous prosper in God.  We're not supposed to add to ourselves or to take thought for our lives, but to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and then all of these things are abundantly added to us besides because God gives us richly all things to enjoy when all fear's been cast out of our lives and we're not living in greed.  A lot of people live in greed that don't have a dime 'cause their one consuming thought is how to get more rather than how to get the Word out and add to other people.

Ray and The Scriptures make the point that God is calling man out of Christendom in this age.

God isn't calling man out of Christendom.  He's calling man out of man-made traditions that make the Word of none effect.  I love Ray.  Don't misunderstand me.  And I probably agree more with him on most things than with most others, but on this one point, God is calling us to be salt and light and to hold forth the Word of life before a crooked and perverse generation.  You can't do that detached from people 'cause then how are you going to hold forth the Word of life before someone else?  In the mirror??

Btw if you notice Religion today is the big business, who gets 10% + 10%
+ 10% and provide nothing but lies and distortions other than politics today.

Even if religion were big business, which I seriously doubt with personally knowing how much it costs to do anything.  Ray probably knows by now with the costs associated with this website that the more people you minister to, it winds up being a bottomless pit on the bills.  But if religion were a big business, that of itself wouldn't invalidate it.  Walmart's a big business, but it's disgusting on other terms.  Not 'cause it's big.  Did God make the money for the gangsters or for His children that walk with Him?  However the Babylonian mentality that tries to put as many people on minimum wage as possible and then to randomly cut their hours and benefits at will, while making unreasonable demands upon them the rest of the time that stress them out, stress out their families, stress out their time with the Word of God to where most wind up falling away from the amount of time that the Word demands from every man -- now that's evil.  Doesn't matter if it's a multi-quadrillion dollar business whose shareholders are only making 2% because of expenses inherent in what they're doing.  Anything that forcefully deprives one of their time and attention to the Word, the Blood, their faith, and the Anointing is AntiChrist, or Anti the Anointed One and His Anointing, which removes burdens and destroys yokes.

At least business pays it workers something for their time and effort.

It never pays enough to anyone.  It takes more than it ever gives back.  God's the only One that'll start paying you what you're worth if you avoid getting offended, protect your heart with all diligence, and not stray to the right or left from the exceeding great and precious promises that you're holding before a crooked and perverse generation.

Now that is my 2 cents worth of understanding, what is yours.

I can't get into most of it and make a good faith attempt at abiding by the rules of the forum and being respectful in another person's house where Ray's ministry is concerned.  But this one thing of calling the wheat and the tares Babylon is one of my very, very few peeves.  Revelation says that it's the one that the Kings of the earth were consistently committing fornication with.  It can't be the Kings of the Kingdom 'cause St. Paul said that if you're in fornication then you can completely forget about inheriting the Kingdom.  Yes, restored ultimately in the last day, so don't misunderstand me on that since I'm a newbie to this particular forum.  But Revelation is being specific about the world's kings being in fornication with it.  The only thing that fits the description is the love and coveting after riches in trying to add to themselves rather than casting all of those cares upon the Lord and letting Him exalt them.  God wants absolutely all of us exalted without measure by the abundance of His revelations, but He doesn't want any of us trying to exalt ourselves.  He wants us revealing Christ.  While we're revealing Christ, He'll reveal us.  There's never a need to worry about that.  This is one of the ages during which He's showing the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.  But more attention is drawn to all of the different aspects of an economy in detailing what Babylon has seduced people away from the Word with, than specific rituals, traditions, ideologies, etc., in the book of Revelation.

[Beloved]

Are we reading the same book?    This is not talking about any economic system, God is speaking in spiritual metaphors

Over and over in the Old testament God refers to Israel and Jerusalem in feminine terms. 

2Ki 23:27  And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there

So here in revelation John is seeing the religious system as corrupted Israel and calls her by various epitaphs...

Rev 14:8  And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 16:19  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city[/color, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Rev 17:3)  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
(Rev 17:4)  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev 18:10  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come

. Rev 18:16  And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Rev 18:18  And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Rev 18:19  And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:21  And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

He also speaks about the religious system being corrupted

Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

These were two places in the past when God directly intervened to rescue His people. He worked through men indirectly in Babylon to bring some of the people back to Jerusalem.

Rev 18:4  Then I heard another voice from Heaven, which said, "Come out of her, My people, that you may not become partakers in her sins, nor receive a share of her plagues.   he is talking about coming out of bablon

2Co 6:17  Therefore, "'COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND SEPARATE YOURSELVES,' SAYS THE LORD, 'AND TOUCH NOTHING IMPURE; AND I WILL RECEIVE YOU, AND WILL BE A FATHER TO YOU,

Contrast this with the ressurrected church New Jerusalem  a city

Rev 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


Beloved

[Beloved]

You said
Even if religion were big business, which I seriously doubt with personally knowing how much it costs to do anything.  Ray probably knows by now with the costs associated with this website that the more people you minister to, it winds up being a bottomless pit on the bills.

Of course it is all about money and works in todays churches

God did not need a cent to do anythung that He did in the Old or New Testament...it is man and his traditions that feed off money

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Tit 1:11  Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Mat 6:33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Ray is reaching thousands but only a few will hear obey and endure.
When God is ready for the site to stop then the funds will dry up.

(Pro 30:7)  Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:

(Pro 30:  Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:

(Pro 30:9)  Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

God will provide for my need


Beloved

[aqrinc]

Martinsisneros, you write:

The economic stuff is the only thing that tries to compete with the Gospel of the Kingdom on the mass scale that it does in fighting for the attention of every believer.

The economic stuff is what everyone uses not only believers, what you describe is humans being carnal not an organization.

Again, the deceitfulness of riches. The rich prosper in the world (carnal) while the righteous prosper in God. (Spiritual)

Carnal human beings being good at what they are currently good at in this world, while those made righteous by God prosper Spiritually.

God isn't calling man out of Christendom.  He's calling man out of man-made traditions that make the Word of none effect.

And where else is this manmade tradition taught as doctrine than in Christendom; Pray to saints, free will, saving the world, tithing, hell, worship images.

It never pays enough to anyone.  It takes more than it ever gives back.  God's the only One that'll start paying you what you're worth if you avoid getting offended, protect your heart with all diligence.

Don't mix carnal physical labor for pay with Our Gifts From God. Do you or anyone want God to pay you what you are really worth now?.

I can't get into most of it and make a good faith attempt at abiding by the rules of the forum and being respectful in another person's house where Ray's ministry is concerned.  But this one thing of calling the wheat and the tares Babylon is one of my very, very few peeves.

Have you taken this up with Ray, so far everything you have stated is quite different from Ray's teaching and what The Scriptures Say.

Isaiah 45:8:
Release, ye heavens, from above, and the clouds shall pour down righteousness; let the earth open [up], and let salvation and righteousness bear their fruit; let them produce [fruit] together; I the LORD have created it.

God is not calling anyone out of the Earth; He is Calling many out of Babylonian Religion disguised as Christianity.

Revelation 18:2:
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every unclean spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

All through the Scriptures the above is equated with something that speaks of worshipping God but instead practices every form of perverse things that God calls wickedness and fornication. Contrast that with commerce and business; remember we are reading signs and metaphors or (Parables) which use one thing to explain something totally different yet being a simile of the explanation.

george.

[hillsbororiver]

 
Mat 16:6  Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 16:11  How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
 
Mat 16:12  Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
 
Joh 2:16  And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house a house of merchandise.

2Pe 2:3  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not and their damnation slumbereth not.

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Peace,

Joe

[Marlene]

I think all the above people gave you all the scriptures you need. Now, I gave money and also of my  time in mans churches. I became seriously ill. It cost thousands of dollars. Our, minister had the nerve to take the exact amount we gave a week during a service. He used scriptures to scare us into believe that I was ill because he might kill me for not tithing. I am sorry, first things they look at is your outward man. Things you have. My husband and I always gave what we could afford and God always met our basic needs. I did not leave from hurt. He said, he never knew what any one gave. We knew that many had left because he told what they gave. My own family who set on the board knew. That is My husbands family. Well, we left because he lied and sat himself up as God. I had temps of 109 and  107 for days. Infection, so high they could not count it. I am a walking miracle. Also, the hospital paid off half my bills. God took care of me. He always has. I might not drive a fancy car or have a fancy house. But, I have a nice of enough home and food on talbe and bills paid. My husband and I have always worked hard labour jobs.I am not ashame of it.

Ray's Website has been a blessing to me. Just know man teaches such a sickening thing as Hell in churches is a call to me to walk away from them. Man churches are hooked up with govenment systems. I am sorry it is clear as the nose on my face most all of them are in it for the money. There are some preachers who truly do it for the right reason. But, truth shoud prevail. I am sorry there is very little truth taught in them. I think the above people gave you plenty of scriptures to support Ray's  teachings. Ray has been in the those wicked church systems. I am blessed to know that teachers like Ray exist. I believe that God will have his say over Ray and his website. I also, believe that if something were to happen God is able to raise up another just as he had others in Bible times. I don't usally get like this, but this is the truths of God we are talking about. I take a stand. I have been shown truth and I will not return to Babylon. Yes, there are people caught up in it. There will be more come out. I just thank God I came out. Just wondering how long do you think that your no believe in Hell would stand up with most of Babylon's teachers. We are not just taking stand on what Ray believes. We are taking a stand on what God teaches us in the scriptures. None, of us think we are better. It all is of Christ. But, I do want to obey him cause I love him. I read an article the other day that the average minister makes $70,000 a year. They also get there living expenses paid for. Looks pretty wordly to me. Also, they say that most are lucky to work 8 hours a week. Unless, of coure you are rich and writing books and own jets. They may put some time in. Time in making there pocketbooks fatter. Well, I will leave it at that. But, I know Jesus would never lived like that. Spiritual blessing are only thing of value. They can not even compare to material blessings.

I can hardly get over the fact that I was so dumb and blind not to see that Our Father is a loving God and not some tyrant. I worship him in Spirit and Truth and I have no shame for that.

In His Love,
Marlen

[EKnight]

I can certainly see the scriptural reference to female gender regarding Jerusalem, Judah, Babylon etc.  But I still don't see the scriptural reference to Babylon being the church or christendom except that Ray says that's what is being referred to.

"Doctrine" doesn't merely refer to religious teachings.  My kids learn the doctrine's of man everyday.  They are being "indoctrinated" by the ways of man (flesh). People, outside of any church, consider their carnal ways acceptable because most of "society" says its all okay.  My children think I am out of touch with reality because I am not of that same mindset.  It is getting harder and harder to remain in the world without partaking of her sins.  I can see how martincisneros might view Babylon as being "of the world" rather than "church".  It makes as much sense to me as Babylon being the church does.  Not everyone is part of a church or a religious sect. 

Maybe someday I will see it, but right now, I don't.

Eileen

[Dennis Vogel]

Martin, you said:

When I read through the book of Revelation, Mystery Babylon seems more like an economic system than a religious one...

God said to come out of her MY PEOPLE. Since the entire world has an intertwined economic system does that mean that even non-Christians can also be considered God's People?

How many daughters does Babylon have? Are all currencies daughters?

No, the answer is the Christian Church is Babylon. The church contains the many called but only the chosen come out of her.

Which begs the question: can the entire world be considered the called if Babylon is an economic system?

You also said:

Even if religion were big business, which I seriously doubt with personally knowing how much it costs to do anything.

You have got to be kidding! All the major TBN preachers are serious big business. You need to do a little research on these preachers living habits.

Walmart's a big business, but it's disgusting on other terms.  Not 'cause it's big.  Did God make the money for the gangsters or for His children that walk with Him?  However the Babylonian mentality that tries to put as many people on minimum wage as possible and then to randomly cut their hours and benefits at will, while making unreasonable demands upon them the rest of the time that stress them out, stress out their families, stress out their time with the Word of God to where most wind up falling away from the amount of time that the Word demands from every man -- now that's evil. 

Your words may sound righteous, but you are showing extreme ignorance about economics Martin. Were it not for Walmart this country would have been in trouble many years sooner. Walmart is the worlds largest employer and has single handedly kept inflation down while the government prints money as fast as it can. In an ideal world everyone would make a reasonable income, but this is not an ideal world. No one is forced to work at Walmart.

Anything that forcefully deprives one of their time and attention to the Word, the Blood, their faith, and the Anointing is AntiChrist, or Anti the Anointed One and His Anointing, which removes burdens and destroys yokes.

That would include Almighty God Martin, because it is God who intentionally blinds the world.

And you are totally wrong about the Anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ lives in YOU Martin (as well as the rest of us). And it's all by design which you deny, else you would not make statements that imply we have any power to change anything.

It takes more than it ever gives back.  God's the only One that'll start paying you what you're worth if you avoid getting offended, protect your heart with all diligence, and not stray to the right or left from the exceeding great and precious promises that you're holding before a crooked and perverse generation.

Total nonsense! You have no control over anything Martin. Zero control. You are not in control of anything. God is not a respecter of persons. No one is "worth" more than any other person.

I can't get into most of it and make a good faith attempt at abiding by the rules of the forum and being respectful in another person's house where Ray's ministry is concerned.  But this one thing of calling the wheat and the tares Babylon is one of my very, very few peeves.

The wheat are the chosen and the tares are the called. This is one of the foundations of bible-truths.com and if you do not understand this then you need to take some time off and READ the articles Martin.

This is just what I quickly skimmed from what you wrote. Frankly, you do not belong here until you have read everything on bible-truths.com. But you are welcome to try and defend your foolish statements. I'd like you to start with free-will since you imply over and over we have free-will.

My apologies to others who may have answered these same points as I have not read every post in this thread.

Dennis

[Kat]

Hi Eileen,

But I still don't see the scriptural reference to Babylon being the church or christendom except that Ray says that's what is being referred to.

You have to understand that the Scriptures do not write things out in plain language for all to understand.  Why do you think that Jesus spoke in parables?

Mark 4:11  And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,
v. 12  so that
       "Seeing they may see and not perceive,
       And hearing they may hear and not understand;
       Lest they should turn,
       And their sins be forgiven them."'

Those that have been given 'eyes to see' God will give understanding of the meaning of Scripture.  But for those who are still blinded it is meant to be a "mystery."  If the Scriptures came right out and said that Babylon was the Catholic church and all the Christian denominational churches, where is the mystery?  How would they be blind to who they are and deceived? 

Rev 12:9  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

God is not judging the world in this age nor giving them understanding of His truths, but rather giving us a life experience.

John 12:46  I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness (the few).
v. 47  If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him (the many); for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[enigmoxical]

Here is another text people always seem to overlook when trying to identify the Harlot (sometimes the things that are in plain sight are quite often the most difficult to see):

"And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

Rev 18:22,23

Now, where can we go to hear Christian "praise and worship" music? Where can we go to hear the voice of the bridegroom and the bride? At a honky-tonk bar? How about a Barry Manilow concert? Perhaps a go-go club? Can we go to a baseball game to hear these things? Or a sports arena? [Well, maybe a sports arena or an outdoor stadium, but only if Benny Hinn or some other con-artist is in town to fleece the flock].

No. The voice of the bride and the bridegroom can be heard all around the world in churches: CHRISTIAN churches. And thanks to modern technology, we can also tune in to TBN 24/7 to hear these things as well.

"Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.

But let justice run down like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream."

Amos 5:23,24

It appears that God is more interested in righteousness than He is in hearing praise and worship music.

Peace

[EKnight]

I admit, it could very well be that I am being left in the dark.  So be it.  But until God opens my eyes to this "mystery" I can not, in good faith, rely on man's interpretation.  I am not into bashing the Catholic church, or any church for that matter because I believe it serves its purpose.  However, just using the term "mystery" reminds me of the answers that the catholic church would give for questions posed for which they had no scriptural answer, such as the trinity....it could not be scripturally answered so they said it was a mystery.  Same answer for the transfiguration of bread and wine into body and blood.

Anything I learned regarding "Mystery Babylon" was learned here at BT.  This was never referenced in my former church.  I just don't see the scriptural reference to Babylon representing christendom. 

I pray daily for God to show me things that frustrate my understanding.  Not His will yet, I guess. 

Eileen

[mharrell08]

I admit, it could very well be that I am being left in the dark.  So be it.  But until God opens my eyes to this "mystery" I can not, in good faith, rely on man's interpretation.  I am not into bashing the Catholic church, or any church for that matter because I believe it serves its purpose.  However, just using the term "mystery" reminds me of the answers that the catholic church would give for questions posed for which they had no scriptural answer, such as the trinity....it could not be scripturally answered so they said it was a mystery.  Same answer for the transfiguration of bread and wine into body and blood.

Anything I learned regarding "Mystery Babylon" was learned here at BT.  This was never referenced in my former church.  I just don't see the scriptural reference to Babylon representing christendom. 

I pray daily for God to show me things that frustrate my understanding.  Not His will yet, I guess. 

Eileen

Hello Eileen,

To help your understanding, Babylon that is described in Revelation chapters 17 & 18 is a spiritual match to Jerusalem from Ezekial 16. As you'll notice the Lord speaks to both as being a 'harlot' and fornicating with the kings of this earth. As well as being decked in the finest clothing and jewelry.

Email reply from Ray regarding church and Babylon (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6697.0.html):

Dear Lynsey:  Your question is really too big for an email. These matters do not have yes or no answers, or one sentence answers.  You will NOT be able to hold your own with a JW ministers or any minister skilled in the deception of Satan unless you yourself are very skilled in the Scriptures. I know how to handle these charlatans, but only after many many years of study and experience.
 
A women is a "church" in Scripture and Symbolism, and Prophecy.
 
The MOTHER is the Jewish religion from whence came the NEW Testament Church. The HARLOT DAUGHTERS are all the different churches and denominations which came OUT OF the Mother Church. It is the combination of all these church that is called: "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH." And it it this Babylonish system of religion that we are to "COME OUT OF."  Sorry, but I can't take the time to answer any more questions on Revelation. I have 455 unanswered emails ahead of yours. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
PS  "If there come ANY [be they neighbor, friend, foe, or Jehovah's Witness] and bring not THIS DOCTRINE [the gospel and teachings of Jesus and the Apostles], receive him NOT into your house, neither bid him God speed.  For he that bides him God speed is parter of his evil deeds" (II John 10-11).  It is essential that we obey these commandments.

There are other scriptures that Ray shows throughout his Lake of Fire series to help give you answers. The mystery that Kat is talking about is not that there are no scriptures. The mystery is the fact that not many people understand this spiritual truth as they do not have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Matt 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mark 4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

1 Cor 2:4  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Rev 2:4  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches (As well as Rev 2:11, 2:17, 2:29, 3:6, 3:13, 3:22,)

The Lord tells His people to repent and overcome as they shall receive their rewards in Rev 2 & 3...then He tells HIS SAME PEOPLE, to come out of Babylon in Rev 18. Where were they back in Rev 2 & 3? In the church!

Did the Lord tell them to repent and overcome the evil doctrines of the church AND THEN go into Babylon so He could call them out? You see it now? They are both one and the same...repenting and overcoming ['Him that overcomes'...Rev 2 & 3; numerous verses] is HOW you ['come out of her, MY PEOPLE!...Rev 18:4].

Please don't take my many exclamation points and CAPS as yelling as that is not my intent. Just trying to help your understanding.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[judith collier]

If some people are having trouble with this Babylonian thing I suggest they take it to God and His Holy Spirit and meditate because not one of us is going to convince another seeker of truth by reiterating bible verses. It never worked with me, being a person who had to experience truth for myself but it(truth) came EVENTUALLY and in it's time in the Spirit and unless God showed me I wouldn't buy it. Yes, I know, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and my faith was always strengthened but a new perspective, well, I had to really take time with the Spirit and meditate because the written word was not always clear to me and I had to have clarity ON MY OWN. I've gotten this far and probably have much further to go but in God's time not anyone else's.

[EKnight]

Marques,

I really appreciate your guidance but I think Judith is right.  I just won't see it until God wants me to if ever.  I admit it frustrates me to the point of wanting to give up the fight sometimes.  And if that happens, I guess that would be of God too.  It's certainly not my will.  I want to know.  I have spent half my afternoon (since reading your post) reading the scriptures you referenced in Revelations and Ezekiel.  I saw in Rev. the mention of the seven churches and the calling of people out of babylon.  But I just don't see the Babylon=Church connection.  I wish I could for it would put my mind at ease.   

Thanks again.

Eileen