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[lovepeace]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL THOSE WHO PRAYED FOR ME!

my surgery went well.
i am still very soar and a little drowsy, but it will go away in time.

thank you again for your prayers and gracious words.
im pretty sure God heard them and was there with me during my surgery.

at least, i hope He was.

thank you and God bless,
Chanelle

[aqrinc]

Hi Chanelle,

You can be sure that if He Was (not there) you are (not here). Yes our Prayers
for you were said; but God Only Decides when we die. Do not take my word for it;

Have your Bible with you to verify The Scripture Quoted if unsure still.

Read: LOF Myth Of Free Will Exposed- Part D. http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html


Excerpt: The Myth of Free-Will Exposed

EVERYTHING HAS A PRECISE APPOINTED TIME

God Almighty is responsible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "APPOINTED SEASON AND TIME." Let's read it:

"To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

The implications of this verse are staggering. The very foundation of human psychology and theology crumbles under the weight of this declaration of God’s Word. This is undoubtedly one of the ten most profound Scriptures in the entire Bible.

If we are to be honest and believe this verse, then we must concede that absolutely NOTHING is left out God’s profound declaration except man’s anti-scriptural theory of "free will."

The word "season" in the KJV is translated from the Hebrew word, z[e]man, and is defined in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary as: "APPOINTED season, occasion, time." And "purpose" is defined as: "pleasure, desire, matter." Sometimes rendered as "purpose" or "event."

Here’s a second witness to this grand declaration:

"Because to every purpose [matter or event] there is time and judgment..." (Ecc. 8:6).

And a third witness:

"…for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work" (Ecc. 3:17).

Here are a couple translations that make this verse a little clearer:

"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).

"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).

There is no wasted motion in God's creation, purpose and plan. Everything has an appointed time, and everything includes: "every purpose, every work, every matter, every event, and every deed." Where pray tell does "free will" fit into all this? It doesn’t. It clearly DOESN’T. Man has no free will. There is no such thing as free will. It is but the phantom of an "obscured heart" as we learned in Part C from Ecc. 3:11.

Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME," how can there be such a thing as human, uncaused, "free-will?"

Is any man free to do anything other than what God HAS "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do anything that God HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do or not to do anything that God HAS or HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Then how can man have a free will?

Man’s will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God’s preordained plan and purpose.

Christendom and her fabled doctrine of "free moral agency" is trapped and completely book-ended between:

[1] "To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

AND:

[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).

Someone might see a contradiction in God’s teaching. If the two above Scriptures are true, then why does God warn against "adding to or taking away from His word?" Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and pre-determined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word.

Thanks Be To GOD And Our Lord Jesus Christ for All we have and are.

george.
 

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL THOSE WHO PRAYED FOR ME!

my surgery went well.
i am still very soar and a little drowsy, but it will go away in time.

thank you again for your prayers and gracious words.
im pretty sure God heard them and was there with me during my surgery.

at least, i hope He was.

thank you and God bless,
Chanelle

[lovepeace]

wow George!
you really hit me with your words and scriptures.
i am so glad you shared them with me because, honestly, i have NEVER read the bible.
i hope you or anyone else looks down on me for that.
i think i have not read it, and i hate to say this because it is embarrassing, because i am scared to. i am afraid of hearing God's words and the truth behind matters and His doings.
i have read certain stories and scriptures of course, but NEVER fully understanding them and when you sent me what you did you cleared up a lot for me.
i guess God had to be there during my surgery or i would not have made it. God does have a certain time and place for everyone to die etc. and the hospital yesterday was not it (which i am glad for) 
the only problem i have is...at the hospital yesterday there was a young boy not even 3 yet and he had half of his body crushed by his older brother pushing him off a fence.
this child was in so much pain, worse off then i was. i felt terrible for even asking for prayers for my surgery. at the moment i saw him i wished that i could take his place for him. i was in no pain before the surgery, i am now afterwards, but i know that poor boy must be in more. i prayed for him while i was lying there in recovery. it was so sad.
i have already written and questioned about why does God do this.
and i loved the responses i get, but still it upsets me and i think that is one reason why i do not want to read the bible or any scriptures or even except some of the things people have told me(no offense to anyone). i do not think there is ANY excuse for children to suffer the way some of them do. i do not care if your GOD or a peasant. i will not except it. maybe that is harsh and maybe i should not think that way, but i do and sometimes i feel terrible for it and kind of like a sinner(as some people would say). but i just know in my heart that it is terrible and they do not deserve it.
thank you again for everything.
hope to hear more,
Chanelle

[aqrinc]

Chanelle,

God does not call us to fear of Him, The Gospel Of The Kingdom is definitely not what is taught by
most Christians or Churches. Go ahead and read the Free Will paper i sent you to get some feel for
Just Who Is This GOD we talk about. When you start to understand that He has never made a
mistake in His Adoption Plan and Purpose for us; you will stop fearing and start Rejoicing that He Is
such a Stickler for Details.

Once you get over your fear of The Scriptures; you will see and understand why we go through
the trial and terrors of this life. Know this though; GOD THE FATHER And Our Lord Jesus Christ
Have Already accounted for your fear and terror, and Will bring you into The Kingdom, Along with
All those who you see today as suffering for no reason.

Here are a few Scriptures to know Who Our GOD Is:

All quotes from: (GOD'S WORD To The Nations) Bible

Romans 5:5:
We're not ashamed to have this confidence, because God's love has been poured into our hearts by the
Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Romans 5:8:
Christ died for us while we were still sinners. This demonstrates God's love for us.   

Romans 8:38:
I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love which Christ Jesus our Lord shows us. We can't
be separated by death or life, by angels or rulers, by anything in the present or anything in the future, by forces

Romans 9:11:
Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child
would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God's plan would remain a matter of his choice,

I Corinthians 2:7:
We speak about the mystery of God's wisdom. It is a wisdom that has been hidden, which God had planned
for our glory before the world began.

II Corinthians 13:13:
May the Lord Jesus Christ's good will, God's love, and the Holy Spirit's presence be with all of you!

Ephesians 3:11:
This was God's plan for all of history which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

II Timothy 1:9:
God saved us and called us to be holy, not because of what we had done, but because of his own plan and
kindness. Before the world began, God planned that Christ Jesus would show us God's kindness.

I want to say much more but Ray is our Teacher so; read the paper i sent you first.

george.

[judith collier]

lovepeace, this too is very hard for me. Now I might be told I got this wrong but this is how I look at it. God didn't MAKE this child fall off the fence but neither did He stop it. God did spare his life. And I am not talking free will here, this was not a choice by the boy to fall off the fence. God did know this accident was going to happen and why did He let it, FOR SOME REASON THAT HE WILL BRING GOOD OUT OF IT. This world is not the kingdom of heaven. But no matter, GOD is GOOD and He will always see us through if He allowed something. I have railed against God's will many times but He did say "in this world you will have tribulations and sorrows." It is hard to accept God's will sometimes, I know. But as I get older I see why I have had so many trials and that is for me to help others(understand what they are going through) and to give glory to God by coming through them with victory. Love, Judy

[indianabob]

Lovepeace and friends,

Regarding the fact that we live in a dangerous world of God's making.

I think we need to be careful when judging God's motives or in attributing to God certain results that come about through time and circumstance.  I don't have the understanding from BT that God necessarily "micro-manages" events in the lives of every individual on the planet.  We do believe that there is a cause for our own choices but let's not carry that too far.   

I don't think we can say that God preplanned and caused the older brother to push his younger brother off of the fence in the first place OR that God intended a certain extent of injury with the attendant pain and suffering.  After all, God did provide the brothers with "caring" parents who were assigned the responsibility of protecting both boys.

Yes God knows that parents are sometimes negligent in their duties to protect their children from harm and yet God allows parents to have children and to make mistakes or to demonstrate selfish attitudes toward their children.  So, when we pray for healing for an injured child, let's be careful to place the responsibililty where in belongs.  The responsibility for making the world as it is belongs to God, but the parents of the child are accountable for caring for and protecting the children God gives to them.

If we pray for healing for the injured child and at the same time hold the belief that God intentionally caused the injury for His own good purpose; aren't we asking God to reverse His own will?  This doesn't make sense.

We need to more carefully define our principle of "cause and effect" to allow for God's perfect love in a world of human choices without the error of believing in ultimate human free will.

Yes God allows people to harm one another, but that statement alone does not prove that every injury was in a manner of speaking "written into a script" for each individual to follow or play out.  People make bad choices.  People either hold onto or lose their temper in certain circumstances.  People either run red lights or drive cautiously and in obedience to the law.  God doesn't decide in advance that we will ignore traffic signals and have accidents.

Let's discuss this issue in a little more detail as it reflects upon our personal accountability for the pain and suffering we see in the world.

Thank you for considering my remarks,  Indiana Bob

[Ninny]

Chanelle,
Maybe you were having your surgery at the time you did to be there to pray for the little boy who'd been injured. I fully believe that God puts us in certain places at certain times to fulfill His purposes.
I may have told this story before but I will tell it again for you if I did.

My two year old grandson had a brain tumor in October of last year it was discovered on Oct 2nd and removed on Oct 6th. But that is not what I want to tell you about. On October 2nd a lady was in the hospital having a c-section and she was in the recovery room when they brought my little grandson out from the MRI. The lady said she heard the nurses crying over a little blond haired boy they were touching his hair and weeping! She called to one of the nurses who was very surprised that she had seen what was happening, the nurse apologized and said they shouldn't have been crying where other patients could see. They didn't tell her anything about the little boy, but she knew it must be horrible! She began to pray earnestly for the little boy.  As soon as she could she got the phone and called everyone she could think of to have people praying for this baby, in a matter of minutes he was on the prayer lists of several churches in the area! BEFORE we even knew he had a tumor God had begun the process of prayer. We only found this out WEEKS later. Weeks later, as I said, my son was talking to a woman he works with and she told him this fantastic story of a friend of hers who had been in the hospital that day having her baby! She never told anyone about what happened for fear of getting the nurses in trouble for showing emotion and talking about a patient! That story is almost too hard to believe! I know it's true. God is in control of everything! No I don't think he micromanages this world, but to his people He is the One who holds the future!
So never fear when God is with you! You are where you are for a purpose!
Hugs,
Kathy

[Kat]

Here are a few emails as a little refresher course on 'free will.'

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html ------------

As these are matters of the spirit, only God can ultimately help you to understand. I will, however, attempt to point you in the right direction.
 
I realize that almost all people when dealing with this matter of free will, unknowingly use words that are not accurate and often defamitory in trying to rectify God's works in their minds.  We cannot force God's ways in to OUR WAYS.
Yet we have all been guilty of trying to do this most of our lives.  God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones:  "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"  (Isa. 55:8-9).
 
Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer.  Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't?  Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't.  Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts?  Yes there is:  "Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..."  (Phil. 2:5).
 
Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God.  They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED"  (I Cor. 2:14).
 
As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higther powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL.  When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
 
Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will."  And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions.  But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN.  He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.
 
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.
 
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL."  Oh really?  And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires?  NO IT CAN'T.  And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine.  The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God:  "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
 
It all starts with God, not with us:  "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US"  (I John 4:19).
 
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first;  he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments;  he cannot please God;  he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9).  And therefore God's ways will justify His means.  The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
 
And so here is the answer to your question:
 
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
 
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
 

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html --------

I understand that these things are "spiritually discerned," and that people frustrate themselves over trying to understand spiritual things with a carnal mind. When a man rapes a little girl, IT ASSUREDLY IS NOT GOD!  When one prays to be rich and famous, IT ASSUREDLY IS NOT GOD!  ALL IS OF GOD, but not is all of God directly. 

God created man--man SINS, God is free from sin and never sins or MAKES OR FORCES anyone to sin. Neither does He FORCE people to be rich or famous. God created man and man chooses what he does based on the strongest motivation in his heart.  And most people's heart consists of lust, lies, blasphemy and the like.
 
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUSTS [whether for bad and evil things or for for what we may perceive as good things which may not be good or righteous things], and enticed" (James 1:13-14).
 
Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any cause. The "cause" of most of our choices is our mind and heart.  And of the abundance of our heart, our mind thinks, our tongue speaks, and in our body we take physical action.  Only God can give us a "new" and pure heart.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html  -------------

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.... WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it -- THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray

[judith collier]

Kat, could you give an example using the scenario that we were discussing about the little boy pushed off the fence? My head is spinning. Thanks Judy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Quote from Lake of Fire part 2

We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.

"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever.  Amen" (KJV Rom. 11:36).

"Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).

Does this also include EVIL?

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

There are many many things in life that are very hard to accept and deal with in our weakened spiritual state.

It is VITAL that we move away from the habitual way of falsely perceiving that God ALLOWS anything to happen. According to the Scriptures God has only ever ALLOWED ONE THING to happen. What is that ONE thing God has ever ALLOWED? Everything else God has CAUSED.

The answer is in one of the teachings here at BT very clearly and categorically explained by Ray.

Arc

[Samson]

Thankyou Kat,

                    I read that Email response of Ray's that you Posted regarding Free Will,
                    out loud to my Wife this Morning and thought to myself, that was a great
                    version of boiling the whole Free Will Myth in a few paragraphs.

                    All is of God, God is responsible as to how he is creating Man in his image,
                    God doesn't make anyone Sin, they volunteer to do so based on their desire
                    from their exceedingly weak heart, although there are causes that lead to our
                    choices, we aren't necessarily aware of what they are at the time we make
                    our choices. Since God doesn't make us chose anything, we are accountable
                    for our Sins.

                    In regards to the older Brother that pushed his younger 3 year old Brother
                    off the fence, we can all agree, there was a prior cause that led to that
                    choice(pushing his Brother off the fence). We don't have any specific details
                    as to why he did it. We don't know whether or not it was a malicious act or
                    was he horsing around playing some game or what his motivation(desire) was.

                    We do know from reading that Email response of Ray's that God did not directly
                    make that Boy chose anything. All of Mankind are created with a Heart that's
                    exceedingly weak having carnal desires that cause us to make choices and
                    eventually God Will rectify all the harm resulting from those choices.

                                             Kind Regards, Samson.

[Kat]

Samson, that was a good rely it sum up what happened to the little boy really well.  But I am going to carry this a little further for those who want to go even deeper into this.  As God is Sovereign this world is the way that it is because it is His plan for this age... an evil experience.  There is no 'free will,' it is caused, all of it and it all leads to vanity, which the Ecclesiastes show so well that we all have.  These caused carnal desire lead to much evil, not that God Himself caused them, because of the way we are created we readily 'volunteer,' which is all His plan.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)

Here is an excerpt from the second letter to Kennedy of 'Exposing Those Who
contradict.'

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm ----------------------------------

FREE WILL VS. GOD'S INTENTION

Until we come to believe that God Almighty is sovereign and " ... is operating all according to the counsel of His will" (Eph. 1:11) we will never fully understand the Scriptures or appreciate the marvelous works of God.

To say that man has a "free will" and absolutely nothing "causes" it to accept or reject God, and then say, "But God already knows who will and who won't and how many," is not only unscriptural, but defies all logic. To say, "But God knows all" will not solve your dilemma. Because if nothing causes man to choose as he does, then that knowledge does not even exist until the choice is actually made. Yet you yourself insist that one could have chosen good when he chose evil. If God does not cause people's choices, then even God would have to wait until the choice is actually made before knowing the choice.

You might postulate that God sees and knows all things so God can deduce from "this event" or "that event" or "a condition over here" or "a circumstance over there" or "some other thing" that a man will make the choice that God knows he will make. Okay, I'll accept that. Only one problem for your position, however. If this is your reasoning, you just threw your own "free will" theory out the window. This is, in the main, how our choices actually work. Something over here or other there, this event or that event, a word spoken here or there, the condition of our stomach or the condition of our bank account, etc., are the very things that daily cause us to make the choices that we make. And God controls and operates all of these unseen, unknown circumstances that then "influence" (just a softer way of saying "cause") our every thought.

God does know all and God causes all. All is of God, and God is operating all according to the Counsel of His will. Besides, why is it then that none choose "good?" Why did our Lord say that even He could do nothing except by the Father? And didn't our Lord plainly state that we, of ourselves, can also do nothing? You know that verse is in the Bible. You know it is true. But it upsets theologians like you when people like me actually believe it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[judith collier]

Kat and everyone else who have given their all to this subject, thank you!! I hope I light up your heart Kat and ot hers and if I am wrong , just shoot me!!!-------God made good and evil.----   God made us spiritually weak(our forordained state)-----      We have choices.----     The buck stops at God's desk though(responsibility) because He created(caused) all this good and evil. He knows what is going to happen.-----He knows our choices.   He will make it o.k. in the end.  He is the catylist (the Soverign God)---   Judy

[Kat]

Hi Judy,

John 8:32  and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[aqrinc]

Hi Judy,

I missed your first (Step), yes that has lit a fire in my mind. BTW; welcome again
to the BT forum. ALL IS OF GOD; you now can start to see this through HIS opening
your eyes of understanding. When or if you ever doubt always remember these Scriptures

Micah 7:7: (AKJV)
Therefore I will look to the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

Php 4:19 (CLV)
Now my God shall be filling your every need in accord with His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

george .

Kat and everyone else who have given their all to this subject, thank you!! I hope I light up your heart Kat and ot hers and if I am wrong , just shoot me!!!-------God made good and evil.----   God made us spiritually weak(our forordained state)-----      We have choices.----     The buck stops at God's desk though(responsibility) because He created(caused) all this good and evil. He knows what is going to happen.-----He knows our choices.   He will make it o.k. in the end.  He is the catylist (the Soverign God)---   Judy

[Phil3:10]

Kat and all,
How very true that all is of GOD. How much liberty and freedom we might attain when we all come to this understanding. HIS truths are so simple.
Phil3:10

[lovepeace]

ok....now i have read all of your responses of my question etc.
what i do not understand is this concept of free will and God not having a part of it.

ill explain further...
i had a philosophy class last semesrer in college and i learned SO much! a fantastic teacher taught me the differences and he let me make up my own mind whether or not i believe in free will or not. he even taught the concept of cause and effect (which, in fact, is one of my favorite topics to learn about  )
any way...now some of you and also people i have spoken to say that man/women have no free will, but then some say that God has no part in it and He lets people make up their mind whether to sin or not.
THEN DOESNT THAT MEAN THEY HAVE FREE WILL?
i do not completely understand. i have read so much about this and been taught so many different things.
i do not believe that people have free will. i believe that everything has a cause. you do something because something or even someone caused you to do so.
for example: i came to this website because my boyfriend introduced it to me and i realized that the people on it could possibly understand me and hopefully not get frustrated with me when i tell them i do not understand things.
that is a cause and the effect is, well what i am doing at this moment. 
so im just confused because God has no say in free will, He made people to the point where they can make up their own minds and if they decide to sin well then they do. BUT...i have always believed that God has a say in what we do. as in, He KNEW that the little boy was going to be pushed, He KNEW that i was going to go on this website, etc etc...i can go on forever. BUT if God knew that these things were going to happen, why did He let it? WHY would He want that boy to be hurt? why did He want me on this site? etc etc...
free will, i have learned, is a complicated subject and i am doing my best at trying to figure out exactly what i believe now. because now people are saying God has nothing to do with it, but HE KNOWS it is going to happen, so does that not mean He planned it? He wanted it to happen?
i hope i didnt confuse anyone, i tend to that when i type and type.

thank you for listening and God bless,
Chanelle

[mharrell08]

ok....now i have read all of your responses of my question etc.
what i do not understand is this concept of free will and God not having a part of it.

ill explain further...
i had a philosophy class last semesrer in college and i learned SO much! a fantastic teacher taught me the differences and he let me make up my own mind whether or not i believe in free will or not. he even taught the concept of cause and effect (which, in fact, is one of my favorite topics to learn about  )
any way...now some of you and also people i have spoken to say that man/women have no free will, but then some say that God has no part in it and He lets people make up their mind whether to sin or not.
THEN DOESNT THAT MEAN THEY HAVE FREE WILL?
i do not completely understand. i have read so much about this and been taught so many different things.
i do not believe that people have free will. i believe that everything has a cause. you do something because something or even someone caused you to do so.
for example: i came to this website because my boyfriend introduced it to me and i realized that the people on it could possibly understand me and hopefully not get frustrated with me when i tell them i do not understand things.
that is a cause and the effect is, well what i am doing at this moment. 
so im just confused because God has no say in free will, He made people to the point where they can make up their own minds and if they decide to sin well then they do. BUT...i have always believed that God has a say in what we do. as in, He KNEW that the little boy was going to be pushed, He KNEW that i was going to go on this website, etc etc...i can go on forever. BUT if God knew that these things were going to happen, why did He let it? WHY would He want that boy to be hurt? why did He want me on this site? etc etc...
free will, i have learned, is a complicated subject and i am doing my best at trying to figure out exactly what i believe now. because now people are saying God has nothing to do with it, but HE KNOWS it is going to happen, so does that not mean He planned it? He wanted it to happen?
i hope i didnt confuse anyone, i tend to that when i type and type.

thank you for listening and God bless,
Chanelle

Hello Chanelle,

You may want to start a new topic in General Discussions regarding gaining an understanding of why we do not have free will...I think you will get more comments to help your understanding there.


Marques