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Author Topic: Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem  (Read 11142 times)

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josh

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« on: May 30, 2006, 07:56:01 PM »

Ok, so today I am reading through the book of Zechariah and come across a passage where a man (Angel? Metaphor? Symbol?) attempts to measure Jerusalem, to see the breadth and length… this seems to be literal until an angel goes out to meet him and says that Jerusalem will be a city inhabited without walls, or I believe it is saying that Jerusalem will not be a geographical location, but rather a chosen people scattered across the earth. But then there seems to be a calling out… out of Babylon(world? Church?)…

While reading this passage I recalled Revelations 21, where Jerusalem, the Holy City, is showed to John as “the bride.â€?  This angel then begins to measure the city and the text gives actual measurements (this seems to be more literal, despite that I understand that revelations is a book of symbols)… even still, it seems as this time (whether the measurements are literal or symbolic) the city is able to be measured… or in other words, the city now has walls (limits? completion?)

Now here is two portions of scripture that present the city of Jerusalem, in the first instance the city is “immeasurable� but the second occurrence, specific measurements are given (something has occurred to cause this change) is this the end of the this current age?

Here are the texts I am referring to:

Zechariah 1:16-2:7
Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem. Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem. Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns. And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. And the LORD shewed me four carpenters. Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it.
 
I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof. And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her. Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.


Revelation 21:1-3, 9-10,
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Any thoughts?
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Daniel

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2006, 10:11:17 PM »

Josh, I would like to write alot but I think that might not be a good idea. These are "symbols" they signify and are the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Listen to how this is worded (knowing in Revelation, He states He has sent His Angel (which is a "Messenger" and a flame of fire)

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will SEND MY MESSENGER, and he shall prepare the way before me: and THE LORD :idea:  whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, EVEN THE MESSENGER :idea: of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Note THE WALL[/b] is MEASURED, its not a what but a WHO.

Zach 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her A WALL of FIRE round about, and will be the GLORY in the midst of her.[/u]  Rev 21:11 Her HAVING the GLORY of God is Christ in her, he is THAT stone.

It ALL speaks of Jesus Christ, its a revelation of Him who shows us the Father,  through Him.

Rev 21:7  And he MEASURED THE WALL "thereof", an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the MEASURE OF A MAN , that is, of THE ANGEL.

The WALL (being HIM) is measured in cubits

Mathew 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one CUBIT unto HIS STATURE?  (God ADDS and increases)

Ephesian 4:13 TILL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, UNTO THE MEASURE of the STATURE of the FULNESS OF CHRIST:[/u]

Gal 4:14... but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.[/u]

Words to look at are what God adds, multiplies and makes "equal to"

Theres much more on without measure, immeasurable without measure etc. Paul uses words concerning "measure" and how these pertain to Christ our salvation. For example one quick one to show two sides to one coin (there always is). We are "measured" a measure of faith. Christ has the Spirit without measure. We are to "grow up" in HIM and the full measure of Christ, then... I would ask, if then does God gives us the spirit without measure? See? They truly are a revelation of Him and Christ in uus is our hope of Glory, thats why He is the glory within her and the very wall of fire round about. Paul speaks of comprehending the height, breadth, width and depth of the love of God in Christ. At some point the typing must need to end completely because it will surpass knowledge and I'm thinking, " immeasurable". Thats what I'm thinking. I'll stop there if you add too much it becomes unreadable. Theres much much more in this though, I can't write well, thats not a strength of mine, forgive me :oops:

Daniel
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knuckle

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2006, 10:29:28 PM »

Hi Josh---------

  4 is the number of the whole

  12 is the number of strong spiritual foundation

  144 is 12 squared

   my thoughts are this----in revalations we have the strongest spiritual foundation,The Rock,which is Christ on which that Jerusalem will stand
   


    Just as a tree is known by his fruit so a house or city is known by it's dwellers.Is a church the house of God?Only if His people are there.If they are not then it is not a church it is babylon.Is Jarusalem God's city--If His people are not there then it is sodom.

 
  Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

  Folks God dwells in the hearts of men.Those mansions are not FOR us,they ARE us


  much love-----------knuckle
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Daniel

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2006, 10:34:11 PM »

Amen Knuckle as a freind of mine has shown me a cute little thing with those "Mansions" much like "Mount SION" which are spirits of just MEN made perfect. They are MAN "SIONS"... His MANSIONS :D

Hey anyone check out how long Job lived including the generations?

Daniel
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chrissiela

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2006, 10:46:13 PM »

Quote from: Daniel
Amen Knuckle as a freind of mine has shown me a cute little thing with those "Mansions" much like "Mount SION" which are spirits of just MEN made perfect. They are MAN "SIONS"... His MANSIONS :D

Hey anyone check out how long Job lived including the generations?

Daniel


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

an hundred and forty years... even four generations.  :wink:

Chrissie  8-[
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chrissiela

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2006, 10:48:33 PM »

Anyone notice that the court 'outside of the temple' was NOT measured??

Chrissie
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Daniel

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2006, 10:52:37 PM »

Quote from: chrissiela
Quote from: Daniel
Amen Knuckle as a freind of mine has shown me a cute little thing with those "Mansions" much like "Mount SION" which are spirits of just MEN made perfect. They are MAN "SIONS"... His MANSIONS :D

Hey anyone check out how long Job lived including the generations?

Daniel


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

an hundred and forty years... even four generations.  :wink:

Chrissie  8-[


Your sharp :lol:  The "measure of a man" unto the "perfect man". These things are amazing!

Ever wonder about the "third and fourth generation"? Why it might be separate in the equation? :lol:

Daniel
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chrissiela

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2006, 10:56:53 PM »

Talking about these?

    Exo 20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exo 34:7  Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Num 14:18  The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Deu 5:9  Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,[/list:u]

Chrissie
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chrissiela

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2006, 10:59:08 PM »

    Gen 15:16  But
in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

2Ki 10:30  And the LORD said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

2Ki 15:12  This was the word of the LORD which he spake unto Jehu, saying, Thy sons shall sit on the throne of Israel unto the fourth generation. And so it came to pass.[/list:u]
Chrissie
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Daniel

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2006, 11:08:29 PM »

Yeah Chrissie :lol:  Why do you think he visited for "that" TO the fourth generation? Why not fifth and sixth see? Those type questions irk me.

Gen 15:16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

I think I hyjacked this thread going in this direction :oops: I like Joshes direction. My appologies to Josh. Sorry bro.

Daniel
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knuckle

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2006, 11:09:27 PM »

hi all---------

   Chrissie wrote-----Anyone notice that the court 'outside of the temple' was NOT measured??


     the court was given to the gentiles and thier fullness is not yet come in

       much love-----knuckle
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knuckle

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2006, 11:11:59 PM »

Hi all-------

   can any one tell me what occupies the area that was the courtyard of the temple today?
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gmik

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Jerusalem vs Jerusalem
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2006, 11:27:20 PM »

good Stuff!!  Keep it coming.
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chrissiela

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2006, 11:28:52 PM »

Quote from: knuckle
Hi all-------

   can any one tell me what occupies the area that was the courtyard of the temple today?


No idea!!

Chrissie
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knuckle

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2006, 12:27:48 AM »

Chrissie-----------

  Islams dome of the rock sits there.A monument to thier prophet mohammed.they built thier foundation on the wrong rock physically as well as spiritually.there is a plaque as one walks through the door above the jagged rock  which reads "God forbid he had a son"
     300 feet to the north(Heaven is always noted to be north of any earthly location) stands the dome of tablets which contains the history of the patriarchs(the muslems claim all the ot prophets) and this dome sits on a large flat rock that once was the floor of the holy of holies and was once a threshing floor.the muslims have tried to fill in the holes that once held the temple poles but because concrete doesn't look like bed rock these evenly spaced marks(based on the sacred cubit) are still quite visable

   Amazing how God keeps His folks seperated from the "world"
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knuckle

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2006, 12:29:42 AM »

Chrissie-----------

  Islams dome of the rock sits there.A monument to thier prophet mohammed.they built thier foundation on the wrong rock physically as well as spiritually.there is a plaque as one walks through the door above the jagged rock  which reads "God forbid he had a son"
     300 feet to the north(Heaven is always noted to be north of any earthly location) stands the dome of tablets which contains the history of the patriarchs(the muslems claim all the ot prophets) and this dome sits on a large flat rock that once was the floor of the holy of holies and was once a threshing floor.the muslims have tried to fill in the holes that once held the temple poles but because concrete doesn't look like bed rock these evenly spaced marks(based on the sacred cubit) are still quite visable

   Amazing how God keeps His folks seperated from the "world"
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lilitalienboi16

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2006, 01:09:15 AM »

Amazing thread, definatly great stuff here, ONCE AGAIN :)

So let me get this straight, the measuring of the temple, also is the MEASURING OF OUR FAITH? Gods elect and there faith?

Im still a tad confused i think thats it, but could use some re-assurance perhaps even in lamence terms ;)

God bless,

Alex.
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ertsky

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2006, 02:36:05 AM »

the way i heard it explained once Alex is that the outer court is not measured because it symbolically represents our flesh our outward man.

as in

2Co 4:16  For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

f
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Daniel

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2006, 03:09:16 AM »

Quote from: lilitalienboi16
Amazing thread, definatly great stuff here, ONCE AGAIN :)

So let me get this straight, the measuring of the temple, also is the MEASURING OF OUR FAITH? Gods elect and there faith?

Im still a tad confused i think thats it, but could use some re-assurance perhaps even in lamence terms ;)

God bless,

Alex.



In short I see "the wall" and "measure of a man", that is, of an angel being Christ spiritually signified Romans 12:3... God hath dealt to every man "the measure" of faith. Ephes 4:15 We are to GROW UP "into Him". Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul speaks of them who are perfect, on Mount Sion (Signified) which is not a mount that can be touched there are the spirits of just men made perfect.

We add to our faith 2Peter1:5

Him and Him in us, THE Son of God (Jesus Christ) and the Sons of God, those who are led by the Spirit following Him.

Concerning the things written I see them as Spiritual truths as they relate to Christ not after the flesh but the Spirit. I see them all pertaing to the revelation of Him. They are just hidden in the imagery.

I like what Jesus said and even the measure concerning them.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.


Thats enough to bend your ear isnt it?

Daniel
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JesusOnly

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Jerusalem vs. Jerusalem
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2006, 03:26:37 AM »

Daniel.

Bless your heart.  Those are some powerful insights.  Just got to read it again and again.
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