bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?  (Read 8628 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Craig

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2009, 05:53:47 PM »

Quote
I was not aware Ray had a contrary opnion, George. As I said, I haven't found much of anything on this subject taught by Ray.

And there we have it folks.  This is the reason for the rules we have in place.

Quote
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

Also more explanation of the rules here
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4558.0.html

When we start discussing things not taught by Ray we are easily tossed one way and another.  The moderators do not care what any member here believes and where they are led, we've said to continue your learning on topics Ray does not teach on, but please do not bring them here.  We gotten alot of grief from some members in the past because of this, but we are not the same as all of the other christian based forums out there and we say this up front.  I've belonged to other forums and read some, I see confusion, strife, and dead forums littered across the landscape.  I admit we try and keep this forum single-minded, there are thousands of other forums that will allow all kinds of teachings and questions, if you can learn there then I wish everyone the best. 

This is not a slam against you Pinko, but something that needs to be remembered by all the members who agreed to the forum rules and are members here.  I am not saying that any views or teachings that any members have is wrong, you may well be right and you should pursue them.  It's just not the purpose of the forum to discuss them here.  We should have enough to agree on that it wouldn't be a problem.

I'm going to let this topic go on before locking it, I hope everyone can try and understand what I mean.  I will give everybody fair warning, if I see a post that says something like "I've got a question, Ray does not talk about this and was wondering...."  I will delete it  :) and hope the other moderators will also.

Blessings
Craig
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 06:57:52 PM by Craig »
Logged

Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2009, 06:36:18 PM »

Okay Pinko here is one to read

Hello Ray,

I have emailed you before, so this would be my second.  I am just going to write about something I have been thinking about, see what you think. 

By God's grace and mercy, the Lord chose me to be a part of his Kingdom about 3 years ago.  I certainly do not deserve such a honor, and still do things that in my mind would disqualify me from being part of anything of such magnitude.

After becoming a member by his election, not mine, I started to study his word to understand who my master is and who my Father in heaven is.  I found, quite quickly, that the world is full of radio, television and Sunday pastors, who love to tell you about God, and what his will is and what is acceptable behavior for a Christian.

One behavior/activity that I find unbelievable that ministries endorse, is the insertion of God's chosen, into the world's military system.  I know many pastors on the radio & on the television who say it is quite acceptable, in fact your duty to serve in the military.  I believe this, along with many other doctrines, to be unharmonious with Christ's mission for us.
Fact: I am a citizen of the United States.  By the grace of God, I born here.  I had no choice in where I was born, just as I had no choice whether I would be a sinner or not.  My natural birth occurred in December, year of our Lord 1968.  My second birth, of the Spirit, occurred in the year of our Lord 2000.  With the birth by God's spirit (God is Spirit), I am now a citizen of God's Kingdom.  I am now called to serve his Kingdom, not man's.  I am to follow the laws of the land, except if the laws go against our Father's will.

When Jesus was in Israel, redeeming and teaching the lost, he did not instruct his apostles to rise-up and fight Rome or Herod.  Jesus had very clear instructions for his followers contained in Matthew chapter 5 and also 1Timothy chapter 2, along with other places in his word.

I can't find anywhere in Christ's teachings that we as citizens of our Father's Kingdom, made available to us through the Lord Jesus Christ, that we should pick-up arms and kill our enemies.  We are supposed to be living epistles, to shine forth as sons of the Kingdom, that is eternal and ruled by our Lord Jesus at the right hand of our Father.

Imagine this, you are born from above, because of urging from "good" Christian doctrine at the pulpit of traditional Christendom,  you decide to enlist in the military to fight the evil enemies of America.  Your pastor tells you this is a honorable thing to do, and is good in the sight of the Lord.  You eventually go to war, and you kill a man.  You feel guilty, so you seek out the man's family and find his son.  You explain to him that you killed his dad, that you are sorry, but would like to share the love of Christ with him because you are a Christian.   Your witness is corrupted, so corrupted that even a "evil" Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, or whatever could see through it.

Many say we should fight for this country, because it is a Christian country and always has been.  I used to believe this kind of reasoning, but now it just saddens me.  This country was born in blood, just as natural man is.  There was nothing spiritual about the birth of this nation.  If our leaders at that time were Christians, what part of Christ's teaching were they following when they were fighting Native Americans, the French or the British?  People always refer back to the Old Testament when I get on this subject about war.  Problem is, we are not Israel, we do not have a government by God, and God does not deliver our enemies to us, we fight them.  Israel was a theocracy, not a republic.  Israel was delivered by God through these wars.  There is no linearity between ancient Israel and America.

As Christians, we are not to revolt against authority, even if that authority is evil.  We are supposed to believe that God placed those people above us for a reason.  We are supposed to serve them, even if they are evil, as if we are serving Christ.

The "Founding Fathers" of this country were very human, imperfect and were not walking, talking or doing what members, by election of God's Kingdom, should be doing, according to God's word.

For goodness sake, evil old England abolished slavery before we did!   Do Christian countries allow pornography, abortion, legalized prostitution (Nevada)?  In reality this country is the BEST secular country in the world.   This is not a Christian nation, this is not a theocracy.  I know, I know, "One Nation Under God", You can tell what manner of tree, by the fruit it bears.

As Christians, we can't expect secular, pagan, whatever to act like Christians.  It's hard enough to find people who say that they are Christians, who also walk according to the light of the Lord's Truth.   I by no means walked in light before Christ chose me for the Kingdom.  I still continue to struggle with issues of darkness and my sinful ways, but Christ is my strength, he paid the price for me and you and for all mankind! As much as I have a choice in this matter, I choose light not darkness.  If desire to kill your enemies, you are in darkness.

Any pastor that tells a member of his flock to pick-up arms and fight, should go with that person to war (physically), set a example like the apostles did, like Jesus did.  But of course, Jesus nor the Apostles killed their enemies, did they.

This is what I understand to be true.  You don't have to believe it, or me, but believe in God's word, please!  I think that I am like minded with you Larry, which is good.  Peace be with you and I hope more and more Biblical Christians are called out of the system by our Lord.  Take it easy.

Kelly

[Ray Replies]

You are right on, Kelly!

Ray


beloved
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2009, 06:41:19 PM »


Hi Pinko,

Luke 4:6  And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

What I meant by, Christ did not go along with that statement Satan made, is that Satan may be the ruler of this world, but he could not circumvents God's plan for Him and Christ knew it.  Christ had made it clear why He had come into the world.

John 6:38  For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me

John 4:34  Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.

Mat 20:28  just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

John 10:17  "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
v. 18  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Now I know that these temptations of Christ came before Christ even spoke the above Scriptures.  But we know it was God will for him to speak them and fulfil them, because it happened.  I think Christ saw right through Satan's statement to Him.

Luke 4:8  And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Christ said to Satan "Get behind Me," because He know who He was dealing with.  

John 8:44  You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Didn't Satan deceive Eve with a lie, was He trying to do the same thing with Christ?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

pinko

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2009, 08:04:16 PM »

Quote
I was not aware Ray had a contrary opnion, George. As I said, I haven't found much of anything on this subject taught by Ray.

And there we have it folks.  This is the reason for the rules we have in place.

Quote
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

Blessings
Craig

Hi Craig-- well since Beloved posted a letter to Ray and Ray agreed with it, I guess we can say Ray espouses a teaching on this subject... So it's OK to talk about it?

Good!  Because I totally agree with the letter writer and Ray on the matter.

To everyone else, I say, you're either with us or with the terrorists!  Choose!

But seriously, Craig, I was only trying to see IF there were like minds with which to fellowship, just as you said.  And now that I also know this is something covered on Bible Truths, well I suppose we're cool.  Right?

But just let me know if we're not.  I've been shut up--and shut down--before.  I don't mind it.  However it was NOT my intention to cause any dissent and hope I have not.

Peace.
Logged

pinko

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2009, 08:11:59 PM »

Beloved:  Like I just told Craig-- I happen to agree with that email, and therefore with Ray.. Hope that's OK.

Kat:  Are you saying that Satan was merely lying about being the 'god of this world'?   Because I didn't know what he said was in dispute, biblically speaking.  Do you dispute it? 

Just asking.

Peace.
Logged

Craig

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2009, 08:31:17 PM »

Pinko,

There is no problem, so no worries :).  Just when you made the statement about not being covered much, it left an opportunity to remind members of the rules of the forum.  Lately we've seemed to forget them.

Craig
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2009, 08:42:15 PM »

Pinko, I'm somewhat confused:

Quote
As Christians, we are not to revolt against authority, even if that authority is evil.  We are supposed to believe that God placed those people above us for a reason.  We are supposed to serve them, even if they are evil, as if we are serving Christ.

This is from the email to Ray and exactly what Peter and Paul are stating...but you started this entire thread stating that Paul and Peter maybe contradicting Christ with this same message. Or were you explaining some other point? I know how it is to be misunderstood so I'm just trying to follow.


Marques
Logged

Jackie Lee

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2009, 09:03:25 PM »

This thread served a very worthwhile cause and the email Beloved posted was priceless.
Maybe this thread will help some to see that Paul does not contradict Jesus and his teachings.
I had a friend that thought Paul was satan's messenger, so needless to say my friends friendship was broken at least for now.
Logged

aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2009, 09:38:19 PM »


Pinko,

I am; and i believe most members here are in agreement with Ray on the Subject. My question
is still what crime was Jesus Christ Guilty of that caused Him to be crucified.  There is no Scripture
that i have read stating this. None of the Scriptures quoted by you prove any such thing. Yes, He
was accused of many crimes by His accusers, when has an accusation ever been a conviction of
 or proof guilt or innocence.

How can One without Spot or Blemish be blemished. Did Jesus Christ Die for his crime or for Our Sins.

Luke 23:4:
Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.

Luke 23:14:
Said to them, You have brought this man to me, as one that perverts the people: and, behold, I, having
examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof you accuse him:

John 18:38:
Pilate said to him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to
them, I find in him no fault at all.

John 19:4:
Pilate therefore went forth again, and said to them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that you may know
that I find no fault in him.

John 19:6:
When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
Pilate said to them, Take you him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.

Now please show some Scripture that contradicts the verses above. Remember an accusation is not
a finding of guilt or innocence. But When God Has a Plan; It Always Works, according to the Scriptures.

george. :)

Logged

Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2009, 10:25:47 PM »

Pinko I think people are finding it hard to answer your questions about contradictions when there are so many contradictions in your questions.   
You say things like

Now I know much of the NT teachings seem to contradict this teaching--in spirit--if not in letter, but one incident in particular is recorded in 3 of the Gospels---namely Jesus' temptation by Satan, wherein he was offered "all the kingdoms of the world. And the devil said to him, 'To you I will give their glory and all this authority, for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please. If you then will worship me, it will all be yours[/b].'"

Jesus did not dispute this claim of Satan that all earthly (governmental) authority--all states--were rightfully the Devil's; were given to him; and therefore flowed from him to all the kings of the earth.

Well here are the three (it is way too complex to explain here but the different gospel versions are spiritually significant)

(Mar 1:12)  And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
(Mar 1:13)  And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.


(Mat 4:8)  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
(Mat 4:9)  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Only Luke makes this statement you are claiming to be a contradiction.

(Luk 4:5)  And the Devil having brought him up to an high mountain, shewed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,
(Luk 4:6)  And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
(Luk 4:7)  If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

Okay we can see your point Satan was given power but what was he given

(Gen 3:14)  Then said Yahweh God unto the serpent-Because thou hast done this, Accursed, art thou above every tame-beast, and above every wild-beast of the field,-on thy belly, shall thou go, and dust, shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

(Gen 3:19)  In the sweat of thy face, shalt thou eat bread, until thou return to the ground, because therefrom, wast thou taken,-For, dust, thou art, And, unto dust, shalt thou return.

Satan was given dominion over the carnal aspect of man and their desires , If they want to be be kings or dictators, artists or porno stars

This is shown in Job also..Job too submitted he physical aspects even though he did not exactly understand why

We are told


1Jn 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.   

The three things that Eve fell for but that Jesus resisted in the temptation in the wilderness

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

There is no spiritual contradiction or even contradiction in the letter, the things in print said are 'apparent contradicitions' to thos  who cannot see the spiritual,

then you asked

How then does this passage not undeniably refute Paul's (and Peter's) claim that 'all government authority comes from God.'...and that we should even "honor the emperor" (and thus his 'authority')?

Jesus had nothing but utter disdain for the 'governing authorities' of his day..Matter of fact, he was actually executed for the crime of treason to Rome.. Remember he was brought before Pilate with the accusation that "We found this man perverting our nation, forbidding us to pay taxes to the emperor, and saying that he himself is the Messiah, a king." (Lk 23:1-2) None of which were denied... color](Pinko that is Jesus performing an act of submission for the Father)

What disdain are you speaking of ?

(Luk 23:34)  Then said Jesus
, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Pilot was a carnal...a coward,  self centered and power hungry, he knew what they were up to and gave in to them...Jesus submitted

(Joh 19:12)  And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

You are truly missing one major point  the spiritual versus the physical

Here is a scripture where Jeusus lays it out...


(Mat 17:24)  And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

(Mat 17:25)  He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

(Mat 17:26)  Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

(Mat 17:27)  Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

he paid them...don't you see the spiritual, he took money out of the sea (world) out of fish (make them fishers of men...the saving of all)

When on trial Jesus confirms this

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My Kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom  were of this world, then would  my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(Joh 19:11) Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.   Jesus himself submitted to being crucified in obedience to His father.

Did you ever consider that after the ressurection
Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Paul and Peter are all referring to the new rules.....

1Jn 4:4  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

In the physical we are under all authroities of the physical world but in the spiritual we are dying to self....we are slaves.and servants .... in the kingdom of God children awaiting to become sons and heirs


Here is more of Ray on the subject

One
God will judge you for teaching His people false doctrines. How could make such a statement about tithing? Did you receive a revelation from God apart from the bible. Shame on you, the word of God never change .Tithing is act of obedient to God. The Lord provides us with everything we have, what's wrong of obeying His word. Is tithing is wrong, everything else in the word of God is wrong. Jesus will tells you depart from me workers of iniquity I never knew you. No way you're going to enter the kingdom of God, unless you repent from your false teaching. Stop leading God's people astray. The Lord Jesus says to render to Cesar what belong's to him and render to God what's belong to God. You're such a deceiver!

Lee!


As I have often said: "Hell has no fury like a Christian just shown the truth." Didn't Jesus say to "Render unto Caesar the things (the coins with his image on them) WHICH ARE CAESARS?"
We are to render unto God the things (NOT CAESAR'S MONEY!!) which ARE God's. How could anyone be so spiritually ignorant and then boast about it and demean and threaten those who teach the truth. Imagine trying to make that Scripture say that Believers should give unto GOD, the things that belong to CAESAR?! The coins with Caesar's image belong to Caesar. God doesn't want Caesar's filthy money! When did Jesus ever "render CAESAR'S MONEY unto His Father?" Give me a break.
Unbelievable, the way Christians pervert the Scriptures and despise the Word of God.
Ray

Two
Dear Mr. Smith,

You asked in your writing about tithing if anyone could mention a scripture where Jesus mentioned tithing.

He was asked about giving money to Caesar. He replied give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. There is no question that he was talking about money.

I do tithe and I do so cheerfully. Not to be blessed financially in return, but out of the pure joy of giving.

You should try it.

In Christ,
Jean Kern


Dear Jean: Thank you for that little psychological put-down. You are right about one thing, however, Jesus was definitely talking about MONEY! Too bad that you and the hundreds of thousands of clergymen and seminary professors have not a clue as to what this episode is all about.

Now then, the reason He was talking about money is because these lying, two-faced religious hypocrites of His day, just like those in our day did not like the teachings of Jesus, and so they tried to trap Him and get Him to say something bad against the Roman government. They asked:

"Tell us therefore, What do you think? It is lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye Me, ye hypocrites? Show Me the tribute money [excuse me, did Jesus say 'show me the TITHE money?']. And they brought unto Him a penny. And He said unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto Him, Caesar's. Then said He unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which ARE Caesar's and unto God the things that ARE God's."

Now then, Why didn't Jesus just answer them? Why didn't He say, "Yes, you should pay tribute to Caesar?"

Why did He ask for a coin, and not just any coin, but one that had Caesar's image on it? Because that image of Caesar on the coin showed ownership. Who does the money in the Roman empire belong to? Why Caesar, of course. And so Jesus said in effect, "Yes, it is Caesar's image, therefore it belongs to Caesar." Therefore render unto Caesar the things [the money] which ARE Caesar's. The coin, THE MONEY that Jesus was showing them, that MONEY, that filthy lucre, belongs to Caesar, NOT GOD. God does not want the filthy lucre of this world's evil governments. We are to render unto God the things that ARE God's, NOT MONEY. Jesus profoundly showed that the money belongs to Caesar, so give Caesar his tax money. But God does not tax His people under the New Covenant. How can anyone study the Scriptures and be so blind to this simple truth and analogy of our Lord? Unbelievable!

God be with you,
Ray


Three
Hello Ray,

I really enjoy your articles, especially those on the subject of Hell. I have two questions:

1. Should "True Christians be involved in Politics and vote ?

2. When "Searching the deepthings of God", is using one's analytical skills and logic a stumbling block, or a god-given help ?

Thanks for your time.

Willie


Dear Willie:
No, a true follower of Jesus cannot be involved in politics. Jesus certainly did not take part in any such worldly activities.

As the Scriptures can hold up to analysis and logic, there is nothing wrong in using analysis and logic in studying and/or teaching the Scriptures.
God be with you,

Ray

Rom 10:3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.



beloved
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2009, 10:27:52 PM »


Hi Pinko,

Quote
Are you saying that Satan was merely lying about being the 'god of this world'?   Because I didn't know what he said was in dispute, biblically speaking.  Do you dispute it?

This was part of my post "Satan may be the ruler of this world, but he could not circumvents God's plan."    

What I think is that when Christ said "Get behind Me," to Satan, Christ was telling Satan that He was not here to worship and serve Satan and I gave Scriptures that showed what He came and intended to do.  Christ finished His statement by saying that; "For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."  

We have Scripture that says Satan is the ruler of this world.

Joh 16:11  of judgment, because the ruler (Strong's G758 chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler) of this world is judged.

But Satan said;

Luke 4:6  And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

Where do we have Scripture that says Satan can "give it to whomever I wish."  ???  That's what I meant when I said Satan "could not circumvents God's plan."  And I gave Scripture that show as well that Satan was "a liar and the father of it." (John 8:44)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 10:31:31 PM by Kat »
Logged

pinko

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2009, 12:41:37 AM »



Quote
As Christians, we are not to revolt against authority, even if that authority is evil.  We are supposed to believe that God placed those people above us for a reason.  We are supposed to serve them, even if they are evil, as if we are serving Christ.

Marques, you found the one tiny little quibble in the letter that I probably would dispute-- at least partially.

I agree that we cannot "revolt" against authority.  But, ironically, the statist  'render unto Ceasar' crowd does not believe this.  Their theory always begins to break down when confronted with the fact that this very nation was born out of a violent revolution against the "powers that be"! That the 'Founding Fathers' of America were themselves revolutionaries who rendered unto their Caesar the barrel of a musket seems utterly lost on them.  I always found this strange..   So then, if we are to maintain this christian concept of rightful human authorities, who are we to submit to?  The usurpers of the British Crown, or Mother England? 

Again, I'd ask:  are we to "resist evil", or are we to participate in it?  What say you?  If we are not to resist evil---and instead to "serve evil"---then we must account for all of scripture which teaches to the contrary..  But if we ARE in fact to "resist evil", how then can we in good conscience render our wills and our labor to enlarging it?   How exactly does one "serve his country" AND "serve Christ" by picking up a rifle and killing the enemy of his rulers? The casualties of wars, let us be very clear, are not even the enemies of those soldiers who slew them!  No indeed--they slew them because they believed they were the enemies of their Caesar!  They murdered for a principle, or for a paycheck or for some wicked delusion of godly "patriotism".  It is such a cowardly excuse to say my sin is not sin because I did it for my country!  Might I point out that war criminals always excuse themselves by saying "I was only following orders"...I was "only submitting to authority".. 

Now you will say, "well that contradicts God's law, so you had a duty to disobey."  Given, some might NOT say that..(sad)  But where do we draw the line?  I KNOW the evil that governments do.  I know their murders, their thefts, their idolatries...   I know of NO GOOD in their laws and their systems of justice; their false economies and their temple money changers; their fraud, coercion and uninterrupted lies..  What duty then do I have to "submit" to any semblance of participation in that?   Must I vote in elections too to be right with Paul and Peter?  Did Jesus pay 'his taxes'?  Hmmm...I'm not so sure he did!  Perhaps that is why he was officially charged with the crime, and why we have no testimony that he ever denied it..  Maybe?

Quote
This is from the email to Ray and exactly what Peter and Paul are stating...but you started this entire thread stating that Paul and Peter maybe contradicting Christ with this same message.

Well, was Peter ever wrong about anything?   ;)  (I speak as a fool).


Logged

pinko

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2009, 01:27:41 AM »

Beloved:  For the life of me, I cannot figure out if you are for my anarchism or against it.

The things you are posting--to my mind--only seem to strengthen what I believe.

Quote
You are truly missing one major point  the spiritual versus the physical

Here is a scripture where Jeusus lays it out...

(Mat 17:24)  And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

(Mat 17:25)  He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

(Mat 17:26)  Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.


(Mat 17:27)  Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

he paid them...don't you see the spiritual, he took money out of the sea (world) out of fish (make them fishers of men...the saving of all)

I am not missing this major point at all.  I just fail to see how it contradicts what I am saying.  Did you think this passage meant Jesus believed he was liable to pay the tax?  Check what's bolded and underlined.  I think you have it exactly wrong.. He paid the tax in that instance because PETER had ignorantly committed him to it by inserting his foot into his mouth as he was wont to do..  This was clearly a rebuke of Peter..  Jesus only paid it, in his words, "so as not to offend them"!  NOT because he believed it was right.  If he thought he legitimately owed it, why didn't he just have someone reach into the purse and give them the coin?  Matter of fact, do you have any evidence that Jesus ever had, or used any money of his own?    I don't think he did.

As for Ray's comments in the emails, I think my view would generally be in agreement.  I'd only take issue with his notion that "Caesar's image" on the coin meant it was Caesars...for this makes no sense at all if money has any meaning as a medium of exchange. ( If this were so, then my paycheck belongs to Ben Franklin and George Washington and I should make haste to give it back to the rightful owners!)   If Jesus wanted to make the point that all Rome's coins belonged to Caesar, he would not have asked whose image it beared, but rather, he'd of asked "Whose coin is this?"  Why did he obfuscate?  As Ray asked, why didn't he just outright say, "yes you should pay the tax!" ??

I don't know, man...I think you are leaning towards the Dark Side on this one, Beloved.   
Logged

pinko

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2009, 02:01:50 AM »


I am more concern with you being honest with yourself 1st of all, then just inserting anything of Non Spiritual.

Example::

pinko "I'm an anarchist, as I believe Jesus was (and is)..

Can you not see by what authority you just stated this to be self evident and true, but is a LIE.

Now this is but a simple definition::

Quote
It is fitting that the word "anarchism" derives from anarkhia, the Greek word for "nonrule," for that is what anarchists essentially espouse: the eradication of government in favor of a natural social order. A libertarian variant of socialism, the IDEALS of anarchy DATE BACK at least AS FAR AS the EIGHTEENTH CENTURY. Elements of anarchic thought were evident in the seeds of the American Revolution and Thomas Jefferson's writings often hinted at anarchist thinking.

It is not a lie, Roger.  I really do consider myself an anarchist--defined correctly, as I already noted-- and I really do think Jesus fits that definition. 

The passage I quoted earlier in Mark 10:42 actually renders "and Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles..." from the Greek word archō (Strongs G757).
He actually said (as recorded in the Greek manuscripts), the Gentile rulers were "archists"... No?  But that YOU (his disciples) SHALL NOT be so..  I think the root word dates back a bit farther than the 18th century.  And if anyone coined the term 'anarchists' before that, it would have had to been Jesus in Mark 10:42..  Just my opinion here, but certainly not a LIE, as you say.


Quote
So was/is Jesus an "anarchist" ?

Evidently so.  And no, he was not espousing any political philosophy...Quite the contrary, qua the very definition of the word. ..is all I am saying.


Quote
Let us simplify this thread and your search for this knowledge.

Is there a contradiction or is there not a contradiction ?

I think perhaps you see one, but have suppressed it.  I may once have thought there was a contradiction, but I brought it to light, faced it, and now know there is not.  Paul agrees with Jesus on the matter.  They were both outlaws, choosing to obey God rather than man.  Both were summarily executed by the governing authorities because of it.


Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4093
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2009, 04:44:06 AM »

A couple of random points that come to mind from reading and contemplating the thread and trying to understand your political history.

1.  This forum (and the people and elect of God) are not in the least limited to Americans.  We have a peculiar History just as every other nation on earth has. 

2.  One of the things that drove me from the church more than 20 years ago (if not directly into the arms of truth) was the growing coziness and the becoming of bedfellows of Evangelical christianity and conservative politics.  You've said a similar thing happened to you.  But to my mind, Jesus and the Gospel is no more left-anarchist than He was/is conservative or fascist.  Whichever 'side' seeks to claim Christ's membership in their political club does damage to both Christ and themselves.  Niether side can make the Master a servant of ideology.  We have to come to Him (and to Scripture) as babes. 

3.  I'm without E-sword at the moment, but read the account of Joshua planning to take Jericho and what the conversation was between him and the Captain of the Hosts before the battle.  I believe you will see when the Captain was asked if He was friend or foe, that He did NOT answer the question posed, but rather defined what was going on.  In essence, He said I am not choosing sides, I am taking over.  What 'we' are trying to get over to you is that Jesus is LORD.  Everything else--theology, tradition, politics, our very carnal nature--has to get out of the way.  Indeed, it has to die. 

4.  You may well accept that Jesus is Lord but be brandishing the idea that He (as Lord) is to be informing your politics.  Or maybe that He as Lord is (or ought to be) rearranging the externals (with you as His disciple) to bring them in line with His Will.  That's revolution, in a nutshell, isn't it?  I suppose that's one way to look at what He will accomplish when He returns and 'takes over'.  His will is HIS will, however, and He taught us to submit to it whatever our desires might be for things external.  THY will  be done.  THY Kingdom come. 

I've had a hard time reconciling how to live with the certainty of God's sovereignty and my lack of what is called a free will, as an example.  I had to come to a point of 'pretending' or 'assuming' such was true before I could see that it was.  Such an excercise might be valuable to you for a while...to come to Christ through the scriptures without any preconcieved notion and allow Him to speak to you and define your relationship.

I'm not exactly ancient, but I am old enough to remember when 'revolution' was brewing in the west.  I studied some, and was around to see others.  Two things put the final nails in the coffin of my trust that 'it' would bring about anything good--Pol Pot and a viewing of Monty Python's Life of Brian.   :D  Never again.       

 
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2009, 11:24:22 AM »


 I'm an anarchist, as I believe Jesus was (and is)..


Actually it was Barabbas who was the anarchist/terrorist.


Jesus had nothing but utter disdain for the 'governing authorities' of his day..Matter of fact, he was actually executed for the crime of treason to Rome.. Remember he was brought before Pilate with the accusation that "We found this man perverting our nation, forbidding us to pay taxes to the emperor, and saying that he himself is the Messiah, a king." (Lk 23:1-2)  None of which were denied...   


  Mark 15

 6Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.

 7And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made *insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the *insurrection.

 8And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them.

 9But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

 10For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.

 11But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.

 12And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?

 13And they cried out again, Crucify him.

 14Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.

 15And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.

*insurrection

G4714
στάσις
stasis
stas'-is
From the base of G2476; a standing (properly the act), that is, (by analogy) position (existence); by implication a popular uprising; figuratively controversy: - dissension, insurrection, X standing, uproar.

Peace,

Joe

Logged

pinko

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2009, 11:32:44 AM »

Well, Dave, you can rest easy..I'm no revolutionist!  I'm saying I have no politics...I'm anti-political.  I'm anti-man-rule. I'm pro-God-rule.  I do not make distinctions between states, governments and rulers; I consider them all unnecessary for society to function.  I understand that God has allowed, created evil, in this time, in this world for a purpose.. and for a good purpose (to humble us thereby).  But He teaches us with it by learning to resist it.

So we should resist all appearances of evil.  So many Christians do not believe this, but rather that they should "submit themselves to it" ---as if to God.  These people are misguided. 

Christ in effect said, these kingdoms of man are irrelevant.  My kingdom shall overcome all.  My authority shall usurp all.  He cared not about reforming the Roman government or for bringing their political structure in line with his teachings... He said it was all passing away.  And that his followers have a better City, a better Country, and they have their citizenship there NOW.  Therefore are we aliens, pilgrims and transients here.  We have no allegiance to our self-appointed rulers and their self-possessed kingdoms and we owe them no tribute.. All belongs to God, with nothing left to render unto anyone else.

People who have this statist bent and who also believe themselves to be followers of Christ suffer from their cognitive dissonance in ways they do not even understand.. But when carried out to it's logical conclusion, believe me, their philosophy breaks down---sometimes rapidly and catastrophically.  Those Christians living in Germany between the Wars know what I am talking about. 

We cannot serve two masters.  And we cannot be masters.  This is the message of Jesus Christ.  And this is why I am an anarchist. 

Peace.
Logged

pinko

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2009, 11:39:30 AM »

Joe,

I'm not an insurrectionist.  I realize Barabbas was.  I know the difference.

If it is sedition to obey God rather than man, then perhaps I am guilty of being a seditionist.  If so, I am in good company.  :)
Logged

Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2009, 11:47:50 AM »

 ;D ;D ;D   Pinko   ;D ;D ;D

Drop the anachrist ptherwise you have to assume and carry all of the baggage of that movement

become a protochrist ...one who follows Jesus

You cannot be against...anything or anyone....they are all from God

Agape love is putting everything in your being into submission to the Father, ...even the "idea of being a anachist".     REST in God

Joh 14:27  Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

beloved


Logged

Craig

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2009, 11:50:30 AM »

And I think we've beat this horse enough now. :)

Craig
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.097 seconds with 28 queries.