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Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
Craig:
--- Quote ---I was not aware Ray had a contrary opnion, George. As I said, I haven't found much of anything on this subject taught by Ray.
--- End quote ---
And there we have it folks. This is the reason for the rules we have in place.
--- Quote ---This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
--- End quote ---
Also more explanation of the rules here
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4558.0.html
When we start discussing things not taught by Ray we are easily tossed one way and another. The moderators do not care what any member here believes and where they are led, we've said to continue your learning on topics Ray does not teach on, but please do not bring them here. We gotten alot of grief from some members in the past because of this, but we are not the same as all of the other christian based forums out there and we say this up front. I've belonged to other forums and read some, I see confusion, strife, and dead forums littered across the landscape. I admit we try and keep this forum single-minded, there are thousands of other forums that will allow all kinds of teachings and questions, if you can learn there then I wish everyone the best.
This is not a slam against you Pinko, but something that needs to be remembered by all the members who agreed to the forum rules and are members here. I am not saying that any views or teachings that any members have is wrong, you may well be right and you should pursue them. It's just not the purpose of the forum to discuss them here. We should have enough to agree on that it wouldn't be a problem.
I'm going to let this topic go on before locking it, I hope everyone can try and understand what I mean. I will give everybody fair warning, if I see a post that says something like "I've got a question, Ray does not talk about this and was wondering...." I will delete it :) and hope the other moderators will also.
Blessings
Craig
Beloved:
Okay Pinko here is one to read
Hello Ray,
I have emailed you before, so this would be my second. I am just going to write about something I have been thinking about, see what you think.
By God's grace and mercy, the Lord chose me to be a part of his Kingdom about 3 years ago. I certainly do not deserve such a honor, and still do things that in my mind would disqualify me from being part of anything of such magnitude.
After becoming a member by his election, not mine, I started to study his word to understand who my master is and who my Father in heaven is. I found, quite quickly, that the world is full of radio, television and Sunday pastors, who love to tell you about God, and what his will is and what is acceptable behavior for a Christian.
One behavior/activity that I find unbelievable that ministries endorse, is the insertion of God's chosen, into the world's military system. I know many pastors on the radio & on the television who say it is quite acceptable, in fact your duty to serve in the military. I believe this, along with many other doctrines, to be unharmonious with Christ's mission for us.
Fact: I am a citizen of the United States. By the grace of God, I born here. I had no choice in where I was born, just as I had no choice whether I would be a sinner or not. My natural birth occurred in December, year of our Lord 1968. My second birth, of the Spirit, occurred in the year of our Lord 2000. With the birth by God's spirit (God is Spirit), I am now a citizen of God's Kingdom. I am now called to serve his Kingdom, not man's. I am to follow the laws of the land, except if the laws go against our Father's will.
When Jesus was in Israel, redeeming and teaching the lost, he did not instruct his apostles to rise-up and fight Rome or Herod. Jesus had very clear instructions for his followers contained in Matthew chapter 5 and also 1Timothy chapter 2, along with other places in his word.
I can't find anywhere in Christ's teachings that we as citizens of our Father's Kingdom, made available to us through the Lord Jesus Christ, that we should pick-up arms and kill our enemies. We are supposed to be living epistles, to shine forth as sons of the Kingdom, that is eternal and ruled by our Lord Jesus at the right hand of our Father.
Imagine this, you are born from above, because of urging from "good" Christian doctrine at the pulpit of traditional Christendom, you decide to enlist in the military to fight the evil enemies of America. Your pastor tells you this is a honorable thing to do, and is good in the sight of the Lord. You eventually go to war, and you kill a man. You feel guilty, so you seek out the man's family and find his son. You explain to him that you killed his dad, that you are sorry, but would like to share the love of Christ with him because you are a Christian. Your witness is corrupted, so corrupted that even a "evil" Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, or whatever could see through it.
Many say we should fight for this country, because it is a Christian country and always has been. I used to believe this kind of reasoning, but now it just saddens me. This country was born in blood, just as natural man is. There was nothing spiritual about the birth of this nation. If our leaders at that time were Christians, what part of Christ's teaching were they following when they were fighting Native Americans, the French or the British? People always refer back to the Old Testament when I get on this subject about war. Problem is, we are not Israel, we do not have a government by God, and God does not deliver our enemies to us, we fight them. Israel was a theocracy, not a republic. Israel was delivered by God through these wars. There is no linearity between ancient Israel and America.
As Christians, we are not to revolt against authority, even if that authority is evil. We are supposed to believe that God placed those people above us for a reason. We are supposed to serve them, even if they are evil, as if we are serving Christ.
The "Founding Fathers" of this country were very human, imperfect and were not walking, talking or doing what members, by election of God's Kingdom, should be doing, according to God's word.
For goodness sake, evil old England abolished slavery before we did! Do Christian countries allow pornography, abortion, legalized prostitution (Nevada)? In reality this country is the BEST secular country in the world. This is not a Christian nation, this is not a theocracy. I know, I know, "One Nation Under God", You can tell what manner of tree, by the fruit it bears.
As Christians, we can't expect secular, pagan, whatever to act like Christians. It's hard enough to find people who say that they are Christians, who also walk according to the light of the Lord's Truth. I by no means walked in light before Christ chose me for the Kingdom. I still continue to struggle with issues of darkness and my sinful ways, but Christ is my strength, he paid the price for me and you and for all mankind! As much as I have a choice in this matter, I choose light not darkness. If desire to kill your enemies, you are in darkness.
Any pastor that tells a member of his flock to pick-up arms and fight, should go with that person to war (physically), set a example like the apostles did, like Jesus did. But of course, Jesus nor the Apostles killed their enemies, did they.
This is what I understand to be true. You don't have to believe it, or me, but believe in God's word, please! I think that I am like minded with you Larry, which is good. Peace be with you and I hope more and more Biblical Christians are called out of the system by our Lord. Take it easy.
Kelly
[Ray Replies]
You are right on, Kelly!
Ray
beloved
Kat:
Hi Pinko,
Luke 4:6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
What I meant by, Christ did not go along with that statement Satan made, is that Satan may be the ruler of this world, but he could not circumvents God's plan for Him and Christ knew it. Christ had made it clear why He had come into the world.
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me
John 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.
Mat 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
John 10:17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
v. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
Now I know that these temptations of Christ came before Christ even spoke the above Scriptures. But we know it was God will for him to speak them and fulfil them, because it happened. I think Christ saw right through Satan's statement to Him.
Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."
Christ said to Satan "Get behind Me," because He know who He was dealing with.
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Didn't Satan deceive Eve with a lie, was He trying to do the same thing with Christ?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
pinko:
--- Quote from: Craig on January 18, 2009, 02:53:47 PM ---
--- Quote ---I was not aware Ray had a contrary opnion, George. As I said, I haven't found much of anything on this subject taught by Ray.
--- End quote ---
And there we have it folks. This is the reason for the rules we have in place.
--- Quote ---This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
--- End quote ---
Blessings
Craig
--- End quote ---
Hi Craig-- well since Beloved posted a letter to Ray and Ray agreed with it, I guess we can say Ray espouses a teaching on this subject... So it's OK to talk about it?
Good! Because I totally agree with the letter writer and Ray on the matter.
To everyone else, I say, you're either with us or with the terrorists! Choose!
But seriously, Craig, I was only trying to see IF there were like minds with which to fellowship, just as you said. And now that I also know this is something covered on Bible Truths, well I suppose we're cool. Right?
But just let me know if we're not. I've been shut up--and shut down--before. I don't mind it. However it was NOT my intention to cause any dissent and hope I have not.
Peace.
pinko:
Beloved: Like I just told Craig-- I happen to agree with that email, and therefore with Ray.. Hope that's OK.
Kat: Are you saying that Satan was merely lying about being the 'god of this world'? Because I didn't know what he said was in dispute, biblically speaking. Do you dispute it?
Just asking.
Peace.
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