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Author Topic: Being Not of this World  (Read 16357 times)

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Marky Mark

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2009, 05:07:15 PM »

"You ask 'what exactly happens after this change occurs' like it happens overnight.  Dude, it won't even happen before you graduate."

I'm asking biblically, once I have turned away from sin, how exactly that manifests itself in my lifestyle?  Like I said previously, if my lifestyle creates the necessity for slave labor throughout the world, how am I not living in sin?

@Mc_Can:  Did God chose to have me born here?  Or did my ancestors defy God's will in creating this empire?  Also, is God in total control or did he gift us creation and also the free will to use it as we please?  16,000 children die of starvation every single day.  Is this God?  Or is it the greed of men?  Men who refuse to let go of their possessions and luxuries even when their brothers and sisters throughout the world are starving to death.

2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV) Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

I would really like to understand exactly what brings forth such persecution if this change in me manifests itself in a purely spiritual sense.   



Shane,

   Hello, here is an e-mail to Ray about our Fathers Will.

   Hope it helps.   

    Peace...  Mark


Gods Will;

I've heard allot of  people  ask the question what is Gods will for they're lives?
This is my question as well, what is Gods Will?
Is it our own will?
If we live a holy life wont we be in the Will of God what ever we do?
Could you please give me some in site on this question, I've read all of your writings and its caused me to search for answers more than ever.
I've found that in the past ,I've more less believed the teachings of others and never read the bible for myself. Its great to read and see that the bible is nothing like I've  been taught. I'm tired of living according to  teachers ,preachers . I want to live according to what God wants, and what the Bible actually teaches.Your site has been very informative.Thanks T
     

Dear Teresa:

If you will read or reread my four-part series on "The Myth of Free Will Exposed," you will know a great deal about the will of God. I am now going to teach you something very very profound, so listen carefully:

EVERYTHING that happened in your life, in the past, WAS God's purpose for your life at that time.

EVERYTHING that will happen in your life, in the future, WILL BE God's purpose for you at that time.

Then why do anything? Why try? Why care? Why be good? Why study?  Why pray? For WHAT?

Here is where viritually all Christians and all theologians and all ministers turn their minds off.

What you did in the past was influenced and caused by your environment of the past.

What you do in the future will be influenced and caused by your environment of the future.

What you are hearing and learning from bibletruths.com is one of those environmental

happenings that will have an effect on your future. You may not see how, but God does.

If God is choosing you as one of the called/chosen/elect/few, then you WILL respond

to the information and circumstances that God Himself will be directing in your life.

If you desire to stop sinning and start obeying God, then that being CAUSED in your

heart and mind, and you have no idea were and when it really began. God knows.

This is a subject for a 300 page book, not a short email. Hope you understand. Keep reading.

God be with you,

Ray
 
 
 
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Shane.

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 10:17:31 PM »

I think I am beginning to understand.  All of your posts have been very helpful so far.  Thank you so much for them.  I also promise to do my reading before I carry this on much further.  I just have a couple more points where I am having confusion.
Quote
If a government official, beit a police officer, or soldier, or even the President of the United States himself, ASKS YOU to do something that you know is against God's Law, then yes you do have the authority and are commanded to "yield to God rather than to men".
I agree completely, I guess we would just differ on what exactly is against God's law.  I'm having trouble believing that supporting sweat shops throughout the world is not against God's law.  For me it comes down to Matthew 18:8.

"So if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away."

I feel like modern living causes sin and that I should cut it off.  It sounds drastic... almost as drastic as cutting off a limb that causes us to sin! 

Like I said, I'll keep quiet until I do the reading.  Thanks again for entertaining my questions.
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Falconn003

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2009, 11:09:20 PM »



I feel like modern living causes sin and that I should cut it off.  It sounds drastic... almost as drastic as cutting off a limb that causes us to sin!  Like I said, I'll keep quiet until I do the reading.  Thanks again for entertaining my questions.

You could go nude and live on an island, and still you will sin.

Entertaining your questions is a rather rude assumption on your part, after tolerance and patience bestowed on you.

Rodger
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daywalker

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2009, 12:02:47 AM »

I think I am beginning to understand.  All of your posts have been very helpful so far.  Thank you so much for them.  I also promise to do my reading before I carry this on much further.  I just have a couple more points where I am having confusion.
Quote
If a government official, beit a police officer, or soldier, or even the President of the United States himself, ASKS YOU to do something that you know is against God's Law, then yes you do have the authority and are commanded to "yield to God rather than to men".
I agree completely, I guess we would just differ on what exactly is against God's law.  I'm having trouble believing that supporting sweat shops throughout the world is not against God's law.  For me it comes down to Matthew 18:8.

"So if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away."

I feel like modern living causes sin and that I should cut it off.  It sounds drastic... almost as drastic as cutting off a limb that causes us to sin! 

Like I said, I'll keep quiet until I do the reading.  Thanks again for entertaining my questions.

Hey Shane,

The key part of my statement was if someone in power asks you to do something against God's commandment, then don't do it. I'm sure the Roman government did horrible things all the time, but not once did Jesus speak out against any of it. In fact, the only time He rose His voice was against His Own Church and His Disciples. Does this mean Jesus was somehow supporting what the Government was doing? Not at all! But He let God deal with them. If Jesus Christ never spoke out against them, then what gives you [us] the right? Does this mean we can't ever express your opinions regarding what our Government is doing? Not at all. IN FACT I do speak out a little on my myspace page. [link provided below]

But it isn't our [followers of Christ] place to stand up against them.

If God has determined that a certain government needs to be overthrown, then God will make it happen. He has ways, and He has necessary tools [people] to get the job done. But it won't be us [believers], I can assure you that:

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." - Matthew 26:52


Besides, how could you obey Christ's commandments to "love your enemies, do good to them, turn the other cheek, forgive and be forgiven, etc" if you are leading a revolt [even a 'friendly' one] against the government? One thing is for sure, the American Government IS on God's list of factions that must be Judged. But only God alone knows when and how that will happen.

I highly recommend reading Ray's Article, "When The Towers Fell" as it is right up your alley:

http://bible-truths.com/towers.htm

And my intent is not to put you down, as I said before, I've gone through similar emotions as you are. In fact, I have just begun to understand these things over the past few months! It hurts to know all the horrible things that are going on around the world, but quite frankly we can't fix it all. Only God can heal this world. All you can do is accept His Will, in hope that He will give you the understanding necessary to guide you in the right path. It's not easy, not at all, but if you want to be His Follower, you must.

"Be humbled, then, in the Lord's sight, and He shall be exalting you."
- James 4:10


Don't be afraid to ask questions. No one here will judge you, because they know if they do, then their judgment will be returned to them by God. As long as you are honestly seeking Truth, and not just starting confrontations [as it appears to me you are seeking Truth], then we are your brethren.


May God continue to guide you safely through the valley of darkness, towards the Light.

- Daywalker.

http://www.myspace.com/focker714
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Shane.

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2009, 01:46:13 AM »

"Entertaining your questions is a rather rude assumption on your part, after tolerance and patience bestowed on you."

I'm truly very sorry.  I had no intention of being rude.  Perhaps I should learn more about a phrase before putting it into action  ???

So thanks so much to everyone who replied for your tolerance and patience.
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Falconn003

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2009, 01:52:28 AM »

 :)


Rodger
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2009, 09:11:33 AM »

Shane, I'll garuntee you that if you can come to a knowledge of the Truth--truth about God and truth about yourself--you'll find exactly what you are looking for in being humbled/persecuted/tested.  You won't have to hack off a limb or maim yourself socially.  You'll begin to die.

Then you can study economics.   :D

Hang in there.

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Ninny

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2009, 10:38:05 AM »

Shane, some of the things said here may sound harsh to you , but you need to remember that a lot of us here have lived through a lot and learned, through that living. You didn't even have to reveal your age to most of us your post revealed it for you!

We can all attest to the fact that as you live out your life daily some of the questions you ask are answered automatically. Most of them require deep thought and study of the scriptures. I remember how it feels as well how fervently you set out to share the new things you have learned, it's not that age destroys your enthusiasm, it's that you learn what Jesus was about by going through this life in this place! God put you here for a reason it may take you a lot of years to get to where God is ultimately going to send you, then maybe it won't take long at all, God has time for everything!

Take time to look around you and learn the lessons you have to learn, then if God sends you into the wilderness you'll be prepared for it. Remember Jesus was thirty years old when He went into the wilderness, He didn't have to stay there long before He knew exactly what His Father required of Him!
Go ahead now and read and study. Please know that no one here wants to offend or belittle you we ALL want to see you succeed in your life with Christ! :D
Kathy ;)
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Linny

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2009, 11:14:31 PM »

Shane, I personally find you to be quite humble and I wanted to praise you for not taking offense to harshness.
Most people, no matter what their age, struggle with that.
I hope you will take some time to really read and study and come back here. You will still have lots of questions as we all do. But you will get so many answers to the more obvious questions and misconceptions you have now. I quake at the thought of what all I may have said if I'd come to the forum before having read a lot of Ray's teachings! :o

Bless you!
Lin
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EKnight

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2009, 01:55:42 PM »

I think I am beginning to understand.  All of your posts have been very helpful so far.  Thank you so much for them.  I also promise to do my reading before I carry this on much further.  I just have a couple more points where I am having confusion.
Quote
If a government official, beit a police officer, or soldier, or even the President of the United States himself, ASKS YOU to do something that you know is against God's Law, then yes you do have the authority and are commanded to "yield to God rather than to men".
I agree completely, I guess we would just differ on what exactly is against God's law.  I'm having trouble believing that supporting sweat shops throughout the world is not against God's law.  For me it comes down to Matthew 18:8.

"So if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away."

I feel like modern living causes sin and that I should cut it off.  It sounds drastic... almost as drastic as cutting off a limb that causes us to sin! 

Like I said, I'll keep quiet until I do the reading.  Thanks again for entertaining my questions.

Just a quick observation here.  Would it be better for those working overseas for a mere .50 cents an hour if we stopped employing them entirely??  Who are we to say that that fifty cents is not a blessing from God (as I am sure some consider it)?  Don't get me wrong here, my heart goes out to those living in underdeveloped, underprivileged countries.  However, it humbles me and causes me to give thanks to the Almighty for the blessings he has bestowed on me (us).  In return for those blessings, or as a show of gratitude, I am obligated to take only what I need and no more.  This, like Mc_can pointed out, is a very difficult undertaking.....the task of "overcoming", understanding and then accepting, that the flesh profits NOTHING.

Eileen
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Jackie Lee

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2009, 05:44:04 PM »

Eileen, I was thinking the exact thing, the people would be worse no work at all.
This could be their means of survival, I would imagine they are happy to get a paycheck.
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Beloved

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2009, 07:16:50 PM »

I think that you and some other members may be suffering from a really bad case of Affluenza, this is an affliction and a  movement that started awhile back. It is absolutely not religious .....but a socio-political movement

It is does profess some truths (waste greed etc), but they are wrapped in many lies and deceptions (guilt socialism, spread the wealth). Don't think that the people that promote these ideas do not have political and social agendas.  They most certainly do.

Yes the 'world" has these problems...but you are wrong it is not the western world...have you taken a good look at the caste system in India...the communist world of Cuba and China...these were poor but never the less mean hearted toward one class of their people.  Each culture has this...the haves and the have nots. 

There is nothing new under the sun.....vanity vanity....written by the richest man in all of Judea.


Regarding the wilderness....

Hagar, not Sarah was sent to the wilderness

The 12 tribes wandered in the wilderness for 40 years as punishment.

Act 13:18  And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Heb 3:8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

1Co 10:5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness

Re John the Baptist, if your read history, you would find that the Sadducee's replaced or rather bought their positions as priests and assisted in the annihilation of the Aaronic priests...John's father was one...who knows what persecutions that occurred.

At any rate read Isaiah

(Isa 40:3)  A voice is crying--in a wilderness--Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, Make straight in a desert a highway to our God.

There are no commas in Greek or Hebrew...so
it is those who are in the "wilderness" who  needed to turn around and face the way of God and make a straight course to God.

Regarding John and revelations, if you read the translations of many of the early church fathers, John is hardly mentioned in these but Paul and Peter were, even though John was still much alive. Read john letters, remember that he was a "son of thunder", do you think he sat quietly when the false leaven creeped into the early church.   Paul saw it too and wrote about it but was more assimilated into greek/Roman culture.
 

John was shunned by the people who were taking over the church. These are the same people who later came up with the trinity and persecuted the followers of Christ. They are the ones who changed te sabbath to Sunday (which even the catholic church readily admits this) so they could distant themselves from those Jewish Christians who believed everone would be saved and lived the life after Christ. It was all about power and money.

You are right the scriptures are multileveled. Remember that they are inspired words of God to every age and to every individual
.

Remember if you decide to live in the wilderness....like the steward that was given a talent....you may not be investing it...but keeping it under the bushel basket....supposedly safe.

Regarding affluenza see part 6 of the PBS video on you tube, you can address some of the problems that you are concerned with at least on a personal level.

My advise, if you are inclined ....study for a career, then get a job , live frugally.... if you do ....then ....you will have both time and money to persue the works of God either locally or abroad.

I think this movement is much like the green movement and is similar to the nuclear bomb and the peace movement that we grew up with .....all fear mongers aimed at the youth......the powers and principalities like these.......so you will not REST in God.

Regarding the beast.... read the 17th century John Dunne

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee (Devotions upon Emergent Occasions, #17).


No man is capable of doing this...when .heor /his beast... is on the throne....thinking that he is capable of deciding what is good and evil ....and he will not recognize that only God is righteous and .....only He can do this.


beloved
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smeacham

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2009, 09:33:57 PM »

Wow, beloved.  Just wow.
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Ninny

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2009, 12:52:58 AM »

Amen! Well said!
Kathy :)
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2009, 05:52:30 AM »

Shane, if you're still reading this thread I won't bother you any more...after this.  Beloved's post and quote of John Donne moved me to attempt another stab.

I ask your pardon for assuming things not fully in evidence (namely your allegiance to or having been influenced by a movement such as Beloved described, or similar).  I still believe it's true, but I may have jumped down your throat a little too hastily or forcefully.  Still, you said you liked the 'fools, hypocrites, snakes' article, and I talk with my best friends with harder words at times.   ;D

I prepared this for you this evening, and I tried very hard not to press any particular socio-economic or political points or viewpoints, as it is simply facts and a bit of direction you both sought and need.  I hope this helps.

You're quotes are in italics.

I'm talking about the fact that, here in the United States of America, we import pretty much everything available on the shelves. Why? It can be made cheaper in other countries.
 Why can it be made cheaper? Because these specific countries lack labor laws allowing the creation of literal wage slaves.


Come on, now...LITERAL wage slaves?  Literal slave wages are zero, zip, nada.   

Children work for hours on end for as little as 50 cents an hour.

I assume you mean in other countries.  Where else in the world do employers pay employees in US Dollars or fractions of Dollars?  Maybe in some farflung US protectorate, but not in any of the countries you'd commonly see on the 'made in...' label..

Why is that important?  Because when workers are paid in the currency of their home country, it relates to a piece of their domestic economy.
I'll give you an example with Thailand, a country I am somewhat familiar with., and an exporter to the West.  Thailand is neither 3rd world or 1st world, but is considered a Developing Nation.  There is wealth in Thailand, and there is poverty, but there isn't extreme poverty to the point of starvation.  Thailand is neither Switzerland nor Chad.

The Currency in Thailand is the Thai Baht.  Everybody uses it, even tourists.

When I first became interested in Thailand, the Baht was exchanged for the USD at about 25 Bt to the $.  A teacher in Thailand (Thai, not a foreigner working in a language school) makes about 6000 Baht a month.  You can figure that into 'hours', but it would have taken $240 USD to exchange for that much Thai money.

Note the way I phrased that--to EXCHANGE.  Two-hundred-forty USD did not EQUAL 6000 Baht.  Why not?  Because one currency is related to the American economy (traded in the world) and the other is related to the Thai economy (traded in the world).

What does that mean?  In Thailand that teacher in a medium income profession is making Thai money and spending it in Thailand.  That teacher can rent a decent apartment for 1500 Baht a month.  (that would have exchanged for 60 Dollars).  She can eat three meals a day at small vendors and restaraunts (the preferred eating style of Thai) for about 100-120 Baht. (that would exchange for 4 or 5 USD a day)...much cheaper if she cooks it herself.

Everything she buys (that isn't an import or heavily taxed) is cheaper.  Could a typical American live on 240 Dollars a month?  Of course not, unless they were 'off the grid'.  But she can.  And unless she is educated in international stree-level economics, she doesn't even KNOW how little her Baht would 'buy' in the US.  And why should she care?  She's living in Thailand.

Exchange rates between currencies fluctuate--almost continuously.  A few years ago, the Thai baht was exchanging with the USD at about 40 Baht to the $.  That same teacher's salary could then only be exchanged for about 150 USD.  Did she get a cut in pay?  Of course not.  She's not making dollars, she's making Baht.

So I hope you can see it is grossly factually inaacurate to say that this child is making 50 cents an hour.  He or she is making not even the equivelant of 50 cents an hour.  He or she is making in their home currency what they could exchange for 50 cents.  And in countries poorer than Thailand, unless there are shortages, basic living common in that economy would be even less expensive than in Thailand.

So your statement is not 'fact', but an agendized factoid learned ultimately from someone(s) with an opinion.  Research the country where the worker ""makes 50 cents an hour"" and try to learn what that means in buying power in their own economy.  Tourist brochures don't count.  ;)  Go to official sources that do not insert opinion.

Related note, it wasn't all that long ago in the US when workers made 50 cents an hour and less.  Gas was 15 cents a gallon, a loaf of bread was a nickle, yada, yada, yada...everything your grandparents could tell you.  You could live on much less because things cost much less.  Why did they cost less--or rather why does it take more dollars now?  Partly it's because of  increased expectation, but mostly its because the money we make today is a much smaller part of the domestic economy due to inflation.  Inflation is not a rise in prices...inflation is a decrease in the value of the currency.  It just LOOKS like a rise in prices.
 
Children work for hours on end for as little as 50 cents an hour.  Our lifestyles' are impossible without suffering throughout the world. 
 
Do some hard thinking on where those children and their families might be if  they didn't have that income.  What is it you would deny them materially if there are no other options for them?  Like that Thai teacher, have you spoken to them (or researched their situation) to see whether they are content with their current lot?  Can you offer an alternative?

Is there room for political and economic justice in the world?  Of course there is.  But your escape will do absolutely nothing to bring it about.  Since you have eschewed revolution (rightly) then consider hard what you can do.  It will include a whole host of things--except what you can't do.
   
The change inside me is happening and my compassion swells for my neighbors all over the planet.
 
Feelings, schmeelings.  Worthless if either the motivation or the action doesn't spring out of Truth.  You liked the article about the harsh words of Jesus to the Pharisees and scribes.  That's what characterized their lives--bad motivation and worthless action.   

How will they know us? By our love? That's what Christ said.

We don't have love greater than God is.

I said hard-nosed and informed in another post.

Rom 5:8 ...God is commending this love of His to us, seeing that, while we are still sinners, Christ died for our sakes.

1 Timothy 1:15  Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom I am.

Do you see 'informed' in those?  Might that be a good pattern for you?

I'm wondering, Dave, what exactly happens after this change inside occurs?

That's a challenging question, and in specifics your answer will be different from mine.  For all of us, it's like this:

Php 2:9.10  Wherefore also, God highly exalts him (Christ) and graces Him with a name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing , celestial and terretrial, and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

You're in there too.  You're acclaiming (acknowledging and agreeing fully) that Jesus Christ is Lord.  Jesus is Lord.  That's what happens when your heart changes.       

Anyways...I'm not your lord, and neither are you.   :)  I don't want to see your feelings, or some social movement or ideology, or peer pressure, or your religious convictions, or anything short of the Lordship of Christ move you to such drastic steps--especially when I don't believe you have all the facts.  And most especially before you know the truth about yourself and the Sovereign God.

To do such a rash action for no good reason would be foolish.  To do it (or anything) with an impure motive would only be it's own reward, and that's such a pitiful exchange for such a large decision.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 02:25:02 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Zer0ne

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Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2009, 08:53:08 AM »

Shane,

     Having being blessed to have a brother in this world by the same name, I suppose I was drawn to this topic for my first response. And while not having such a deep understanding of the finer points, which I am sure have been presented here, or may well be brought to light at yet a later time; I will endeavor to do like unto Peter (Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. Acts 3:6) and simply offer that which I have.

While skimming the prior responses to your inquiry, I did happen to note that there was mention that Ray would have us to do what Jesus would do.
So with that theme in mind, (WWJD) I will present a few more verses to shed some light on this subject.

John 8:12.  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

1 Peter 2:9.  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light;

John 17:14-26
14.  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
 15.  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
 16.  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
 17.  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
 18.  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
 19.  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
 20.  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
 21.  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
 22.  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
 23.  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Heh... let me chime in here and say... I don't think that sounds like a hell theory to me.. :)

John 3:16-21
16.  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18.  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19.  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

How is this represented in the world today?

Ephesians 4:12-16
12.  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13.  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14.  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15.  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16.  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

We are the Body of Christ...

If we are the Body of Christ, and we are still in the world, then there should still be light in the world....right?

Why are we to be light?

Matthew 5:14-16
 14.  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
 15.  Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
 16.  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
 24.  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
 25.  O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
 26.  And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

To offer direction to the lost, and to edify the Body.

He is in us...

John 9:5.  As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Philippians 2:12-16
12.  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 13.  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 14.  Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
 15.  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
 16.  Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

We are to be His ambassadors here on earth until He returns, He will accomplish His plan with or without us, but what an honor to be of service to the King? There may be times in which a wilderness experience is needed... as He separates us and molds us more specifically for a given task without the interference usually found within the normal circles of society. Yet as someone earlier pointed out about the other people that were in the wilderness; It usually did not prove to be the place one would want to be, and even Jesus only stayed for 40 days. I believe like someone else mentioned... You were Born in America for a reason, what reason is that?.....To be of greater service to the King....you live in the land of opportunity... what greater example do you need... the current president is the son of an immigrant.... All things are possible to him who believes, especially if that believer also knows Who to believe in....While I don't consider myself associated with any particular denomination... I do agree with your notion that things in this age are starting to become Kingdom focused....The Kingdom of God was Jesus message... and is what we look forward to... why not be central to what He is doing in these last days...

Well, I have endeavored to offer mostly scripture, and comment as little as possible...as I know I am still learning myself...

I consider it an honor to have met such a fine group of believers :)

Keep your Focus on Serving the King!
Zer0ne

P.S.

One other thought after reading more into the topic...How could western civilization be the wine that all nations have partaken of, if in fact at the time this was written there was no way for any civilizations to be affected by a western civilization? Plus, I would like to think that whatever, this is referring to would have actually had the same impact on "ALL" nations from beginning to end... yet here in the end of time, once and for all there will be an end put to this atrocity. Just some food for thought. :)

« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 09:20:41 AM by Zer0ne »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2009, 09:36:42 AM »

Hi Shane

Lets get right back down to basics.

Jesus did not pray to the Father to take us OUT of the world but that we may be protected by the evil one.

We are told in the Book of Revelations that if we OVERCOME we shall enjoy the rewards. What are we to overcome. We are to overcome the trials and temptations and tribulations that we suffer. We are not told to ESCAPE from such trials and tribulations but that such trials and tribulations are the WAY into the Kingdom of God.

Non can enter such a Kingdom by anything they can do without Christ. We all enter through the Endurance, Wisdom, Mercy, Pity, Faith and Passion OF CHRIST.

There is nothing you or I can DO. The doing is in the hands of the potter not the pot.

How long does this doing take?

A life time and then it still is not complete. The work of God we are told continues upon the Resurrection to life and until Christ submits all to God the Father including Himself.

You appear to me to be in the pain with struggling, seeking and not knowing the answers to your questions. I believe we here in this Forum can all identify with this part of the path to the deeper insights that only the Spirit of Christ can open to our hearts and minds. Your struggle appears to me like God is dragging you to His Son. Find some comfort in this.

All go against God's Will. This is the process through which God conforms us to the image of His Faithfull Obedient Son that is in line with His Plan and Purpose for all humanity. There is no quick fix. God's process is long suffering. Very long suffering to bring out the spotless image of His perfect Son that is promised to us. Paul says that for our MOMENTARY affliction, the consequence of glory far exceeds any suffering. Well do we all know that such words ring empty in the vortex and moment of suffering. That is why we have our brethren to encourage us with those same encouragements we received when we were in the furnace of affliction.

If you're not in the furnace of affliction to know the Truth and be settled in the insights of Christ, do not worry you will get there. All are appointed to the Lake of Fire. Non are too good for it either.

Arc.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 09:39:57 AM by Arcturus »
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Heidi

  • Guest
Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2009, 09:50:00 AM »

Zer0ne....no better reply can anyone give that with the truth of the Word of God.  

Shane, I pray that the Word that has gone forth will not return void in your life.  Christ himself said "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John16:33)

What better place to learn to become overcomers that in this world and its warts and flaws...knowing in our hearts that "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" (John 17:16)  We cannot remove ourselves from this world until Christ returns, we are the light of this world......let your light shine and remember that love conquers all.

Heidi

PS  Welcome to the forum ZerOne.....and what an introduction!  I look forward to getting to know you as we all seek to know the truth....."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)
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Stevernator

  • Guest
Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2009, 07:30:31 PM »

I think that the poor can be much richer in a spiritual sense. Jesus warned that it is easier for a camel to pass through a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those of us in affluent communities can be grateful for our abundance. However, it carries much more challenges and responsibilities in a sense. Since we may have so much luxury and physical comforts and temptations in the kingdom of western civilization it can be hard to enter the kingdom of heaven. Living an ascetic lifestyle in the wilderness or fasting may be good for a time if you need to get your spirit away from the temptations (think Jesus fasting in the desert). However we still live in the world and it is hard to be the salt of the earth and give to others if we are living off the grid.

Acts 20:35 "...ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."

Proverbs 31:20 "She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy." (the virtuous woman)

Proverbs 30:8
Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:

Work brings profit, but mere talk leads to poverty! - Proverbs 14:23


These are my thoughts correct me if I am wrong.

-Steve

Edit: Many of the moderately poor people are probably happier than rich people.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 07:36:32 PM by Stevernator »
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Stevernator

  • Guest
Re: Being Not of this World
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2009, 07:37:20 PM »

I think that the poor can be much richer in a spiritual sense. Jesus warned that it is easier for a camel to pass through a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those of us in affluent communities can be grateful for our abundance. However, it carries much more challenges and responsibilities in a sense. Since we may have so much luxury and physical comforts and temptations in the kingdom of western civilization it can be hard to enter the kingdom of heaven. Living an ascetic lifestyle in the wilderness or fasting may be good for a time if you need to get your spirit away from the temptations (think Jesus fasting in the desert). However we still live in the world and it is hard to be the salt of the earth and give to others if we are living off the grid.

Acts 20:35 "...ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."

Proverbs 31:20 "She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy." (the virtuous woman)

Proverbs 30:8
Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:

Work brings profit, but mere talk leads to poverty! - Proverbs 14:23


These are my thoughts correct me if I am wrong.

-Steve

Edit: Many of the moderately poor people who have their needs met (not desitute) are probably happier than rich people.
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