Being Not of this World

[Phil3:10]

Shane,
I have just read all the posts to your question regarding your feeling that you need to come completely out of the economic system and that you seek suffering for CHRIST"S sake.  I feel this is much like praying for a wilderness experience that very few are prepared to handle.
While I also abhor the waste and greed evidenced in the U. S., I also see the good the U. S. has accomplished in aiding the rest of the world. Of course, it could be better but no nation has been as generous and this is evidenced by the way people throughout the world try to get into this country.
The good advice to keep reading the works of L. Ray Smith and this forum is the best advice I can offer. GOD has you where HE wants you and HE will perform HIS perfect will in your life. I can assure you that if HIS will is for you to suffer HE will perform HIS perfect will in your life. We should all take the economic blessings HE give to us and share with others less fortunate. I thank GOD that HE chose for me to be born in the U. S. and not some poor nation where I would probably already be dead and would have little opportunity to know HIS SON.  Seek HIS leading and thank HIM for HIS blessings.
In HIM,
Phil3:10

[Shane.]

Dave, my statement was a generalization.  I am well aware of the fact that people in foreign countries are paid in their own currency.  That doesn't change the fact that we enjoy our luxuries at the expense of others.  As I said, there's a reason the United States imports everything.  I could go on and on but here is what this all comes down to:

Civilization is not sustainable.  Civilization requires specialization which requires a surplus of food.  A surplus of food inevitably leads to overpopulation and the depletion of resources.  99% of all of our ancestors lived primitively.  Humans were meant to live primitively.  Civilization is brand new and, since its inception, it has gradually strangled creation.

The assumption that my ideology is informed by some trendy movement is just boring.  From where I'm standing your heart looks hardened.  I'm sure you would think the same of me.  So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and trust that, through Christ, we will come to the same conclusion.       

[Marky Mark]

"You ask 'what exactly happens after this change occurs' like it happens overnight.  Dude, it won't even happen before you graduate."

I'm asking biblically, once I have turned away from sin, how exactly that manifests itself in my lifestyle?  Like I said previously, if my lifestyle creates the necessity for slave labor throughout the world, how am I not living in sin?

@Mc_Can:  Did God chose to have me born here?  Or did my ancestors defy God's will in creating this empire?  Also, is God in total control or did he gift us creation and also the free will to use it as we please?  16,000 children die of starvation every single day.  Is this God?  Or is it the greed of men?  Men who refuse to let go of their possessions and luxuries even when their brothers and sisters throughout the world are starving to death.

2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV) Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

I would really like to understand exactly what brings forth such persecution if this change in me manifests itself in a purely spiritual sense.   

If you really , really , really , really , really like to understand, then go here http://www.bible-truths.com/   

Rodger

Read everything 2-3 times and when you return from this ordeal in full understanding, you should be well into your late 30's or early 40's, what say you ?

Shane,I love you my Brother,so, as to agree with Brother Rodger, I have to give his post a BIG +1.

Peace...   Mark

[Kat]

Hi Shane,

I look at this world as being the way the Creator intended it to be, with those who have the luxuries and those that have little or nothing.  I believe this present age is to show mankind through experiences by their own actions the evil that there is and so there is all of these bad things happening that you want to escape from.  

I believe this world will continue on it's present path towards destruction until the return of Jesus Christ to usher in the new world/age.  I think that we should do our best to help other whereever we find ourselves, as God gives us opportunity.  But nothing will change the course this world is on as God works out His plan.  

It does matter how we live and what we do with what we are given now though, as all will give account for how we have lived.

Gal 6:7  Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
v.8  For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
v. 9  And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.
v. 10  So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Rom 2:6  who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
v. 7  eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
v. 8  but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
v. 9  tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
v. 10  but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
v. 11  For there is no partiality with God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Linny]

Shane, Kat is so right.
My husband and I have watched many documentaries and read a lot about the horrible crimes against others you speak of and do not wish to participate in. Being in our present financial situation has been very frustrating but what it has taught us is that we are all given a sphere of influence and that is where we must obey the Scriptures and be a light and a help to those put in our path.

It is amazing just how much one can find to do and how many people one can find to help if you just open your eyes and ask around.
The church and its tithing doctrines have killed this spirit among most people. They think they are fulfilling the directives of God by giving 10% of their income to their church.

But being "poor" (certainly not by the world's standards, but by what we were accustomed to) has also shown us just how stuck we are in this system.
The world and its governments are evil and man is greedy and evil and I can't get away from the "made in China" stickers.

Again, there is something you can do to be a help to others. But you won't be able to do it on an island.

Blessings, Lin

[smeacham]

Dave, my statement was a generalization.  I am well aware of the fact that people in foreign countries are paid in their own currency.  That doesn't change the fact that we enjoy our luxuries at the expense of others.  As I said, there's a reason the United States imports everything.  I could go on and on but here is what this all comes down to:

Civilization is not sustainable.  Civilization requires specialization which requires a surplus of food.  A surplus of food inevitably leads to overpopulation and the depletion of resources.  99% of all of our ancestors lived primitively.  Humans were meant to live primitively.  Civilization is brand new and, since its inception, it has gradually strangled creation.

The assumption that my ideology is informed by some trendy movement is just boring.  From where I'm standing your heart looks hardened.  I'm sure you would think the same of me.  So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and trust that, through Christ, we will come to the same conclusion.       

I'd like to steer this conversation in a slightly different direction.  Let's stop arguing back and forth about whether Shane's honest and well-meaning desire to self-sacrifice is correct or not.  Let's find the things that we agree on together, then work together to see what we CAN do about it?  I'll go first...

Let's start by looking at capitalism itself.  I'll take a rather physical and practical approach to things, because that seemed the goal of the original poster.  Others here are probably better qualified to address the spiritual aspects of this, and many already have.

Henry Ford said that capitalism is, and I'm paraphrasing from memory, "Making the best product you can, at the lowest price you can, while paying the highest wage you can."  These days, I believe that definition is incorrect.  I'd propose it is now "Making the cheapest product you can, at the highest price you can, while paying the lowest wage you can."  The first (Henry Ford's definition) sounds like sharing and solidarity.  The second (my modern definition) sounds like selfishness and division.

I don't believe there should be any debate which is the Godly way, and which is not.  It is self-evident.  Also, either one can manifest in any economic system.  Neither one requires "civilization."

So now the question is, as far as living in a capitalistic society is concerned, what can WE do to live Godly?  We ARE Jesus' body here on Earth, after all.

We can be like Henry Ford, if we are the employer - pay the best wage we can, rather than looking after our own bonuses and the bottom line, first.  We can support those who are like Henry Ford, if we are the consumer.  We should find other opportunities to share with the needy, too.  Of course, these are both easier said than done, and we WILL suffer persecution if we do this.  It will require a simple (not necessarily primitive) and frugal lifestyle.

I do not believe that we are called to CHANGE the society into something else by protests, revolution, voting, or becoming an elected official.  Rather, I believe that we are called to live in the society that God has placed us in, and to do so peacefully.  Jesus did none of these things against the worldly authorities of His time.

That's all I have time for now.  Let's let some others help out, please.

Steve

[Rene]

Hi Folks,

This thread has run its course.  Time to move on.

Rene'