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[smeacham]

Please bear with me while I vent a bit and get this off my shoulders.  I'd bet that some others here have experienced something similar, though.

Last year, my oldest daughter ran away from home under very bad circumstances.  She was gone about a month before she came back, and she didn't do most of the stuff that she ran away in order to do.  For that, I'm very thankful to God, because it would have been a much worse experience for her if she had.

Just a few days after she left, while the pain was still very raw, some JW's came to our door.  I asked them if they had any advice in our situation, and they did.  We agreed to study, and it was really like a counseling session every week.  I still can't thank them enough for the support during that time.  We spent our time reading and discussing one of their publications about families and teenagers.

Eventually, my daughter came home.  She began sitting with us, and for several weeks, the group session was just what the doctor ordered.  She became interested in spiritual things again, and teachable.  During the week I wouldn't teach her JW doctrine, either.  I'd teadch her the Good News of God's Love for all mankind, and His purpose for creating us.  Y'all know what I mean.

Then...I said THEN, the JW's decided that we'd done enough on that material, and we need to understand Jehovah's Kingdom and how we can be a part of it.  To my wife and I, it became like tasting sour milk every week.  Even my daughter began to feel this way.

They have driven my daughter closer to her mother and I, so I can't complain about that.  But it has become too high a price to pay.  None of us can sit silently anymore while we read from a little book that Blasphemes God.  Much of this resolves around the issue of Free Will.

About a month ago, I prepared my own study on free will for when they came.  We went along with it, instead of looking at the obvious meaning of obvious scriptures (to me), they'd then turn to other scriptures that don't say what they think they say to counter.  More than once they became very visibly angry, and I had to caution them not to say some things they'd say.  They would even accuse God of doing evil deeds!  For example, because they could only believe that Adam and Eve "were set up for failure," if what I was saying was true.

Last Saturday, against MY will, we were supposed to study "Why does God allow suffering."  Reading that study simply made me sick, and once my wife read it, she agreed.  When they arrived, she told them in no uncertain terms that our studies were over, and why.  I told them that if God ever leads them to question what they've been taught, to come see us again.

They couldn't help but say it was my own "free moral agency" that they were respecting when they'd brush the dust from their feet and move on.  They really think that it was the Bible and God that we are rejecting, and not their fleshy, carnal interpretation of it.

It's just a melancholy time for me.  They've watched my baby grow up from 2 weeks old to 4 months old.  They were nice people.  We share some similar criticisms of Christendom.  Now they're gone.  I can see the benefit in my life and my family's from our time together.  It just feels kind of empty seeing them walk away probably more convinced of their own righteousness than ever and having harder hearts than they started with.

Steve

[Samson]

Thankyou Steve,

                        Enjoyed your Testimony! I completely understand your experience with
                        Jehovah's Witnesses, I was one of them for twenty years, voluntarily
                        resigning in 2004. Although they are certainly Unorthodox in there Theology;
                        Non-Trinitarian, Soul Sleep, a Resurrection required in the future upon Christs
                        return and although they don't believe in Hell-Fire or Eternal Separation, they
                        expect that eventually all Non-JWS will be Endlessly dead(Annihilation).

                        They possess some of the same critical errors as the Mainline Churches; Free Moral
                        Agency, Satan was created a perfect Angel, Adam & Eve were created Physically
                        and Spiritually perfect with the ability to have resisted the Forbidden fruit. Also
                        they don't subscribe to the God created Evil(Hebrew Ra). They don't believe that
                        is Creating(A Process), Male and Female in his image. Also they are extremely
                        Legalistic in Nature, expecting individuals to conquer carnal desires with there
                        Free Will, not realizing that only God can remove these desires, when he's ready
                        to do so.
 
                        If you ever have any questions regarding other details regarding JW'S, feel free to
                        send me a Personal Message.

                                                     Kind Regards, Samson.

[aqrinc]

Hi Steve,

Just read your testimony; well you have at least escaped their clutches. My Mother
who is over 75 years has been a JW for about 50 of those years. She is so scared
now of letting go of her beliefs at this time, because she has put most of her lifetime
into that church. Today we spent over two hours on the phone discussing many of the
same topics Samson quotes above.

She was very dogmatic, but at least able to hear that maybe; some of her beliefs need
to be reevaluated. I know that only God can change someones attention; so i Pray daily
that He Gives me the right words when she is prepared.

One thing came out to me clearly; most people in any Religion are really scared of
dying and Judgement. We that have the Light; need to be aware of this very thing
and be diligent in our preparation, to have the correct information; whenever called,
to be a Witness for Our Lord Jesus Christ. These are very trying days coming upon
us and the World and we must be able to verbalize clearly our HOPE.

In GOD THE FATHER and Our Lord Jesus Christ.

george.

 

[Samson]

Hi Steve,

Just read your testimony; well you have at least escaped their clutches. My Mother
who is over 75 years has been a JW for about 50 of those years. She is so scared
now of letting go of her beliefs at this time, because she has put most of her lifetime
into that church. Today we spent over two hours on the phone discussing many of the
same topics Samson quotes above.

She was very dogmatic, but at least able to hear that maybe; some of her beliefs need
to be reevaluated. I know that only God can change someones attention; so i Pray daily
that He Gives me the right words when she is prepared.

One thing came out to me clearly; most people in any Religion are really scared of
dying and Judgement. We that have the Light; need to be aware of this very thing
and be diligent in our preparation, to have the correct information; whenever called,
to be a Witness for Our Lord Jesus Christ. These are very trying days coming upon
us and the World and we must be able to verbalize clearly our HOPE.

In GOD THE FATHER and Our Lord Jesus Christ.

george.

 

Hello George,

                   It's so true, what you state above regarding a deep fear of Judgement. A fear of
                   dying and eventually being Annihilated(Endless Death), with no hope for a Ressurection
                   consumed my thoughts. They drum into your head that if you leave the Organization,
                   even voluntarily, never to return, you will enter the Second Death, upon your natural
                   death, with no hope of a Ressurection.

                   The founder of the Watchtower Society, not Jehovahs Witnesses, Charles Russell
                   believed that most mankind would eventually saved. He had some discussions with
                   Universalists regarding the final disposition of the extremely wicked. I read a letter
                   and it's reply that he wrote to A.E. Knoch of the Concordant Publishing Concern, the
                   letter took place sometime between 1910-1916. Despite the overwhelming evidence
                   that ruin, destruction and being lost was not the final disposition of the Wicked, the
                   erroneous belief in Free Will was Idol of the Heart that prevented understanding.
                   It was not God's Will for him to see the Eventual Salvation of all. Although he was
                   in error, his outlook towards Mankind's eventual hope was much closer to what we
                   believe compared to the Watctower Societies current viewpoint.

                   It was through researching the Early Bible Student Movement and coming upon
                   a library(God's Truth for Today) of Universalist thought from A-Z that was part
                   of the path that led me to Bible-Truths. The Library contains that writings of
                   Andrew Jukes, Thomas Alin, Hosea Ballou, John Wesley Hanson and the Etymologist
                   Alexander Thomson that Ray mentions regarding how the Greek Aion eventually came
                   to be misunderstood in Latin. I actually found that article by Alexander Thomson.

                   Through the help from former JW Governing Body member Ray Franz, these Universalist
                   Authors and a desire in prayer to God to my question answered: " If the JWS don't have
                   the Truth, please tell me; What is the Truth." Prior to my discovery of Ray's Site, I was
                   just planning on going it alone(God, me, myself & I & The Bible), I figured that the chips
                   will fall wherever they fall.

                                              Fear acts as a restraint, Samson.

[smeacham]

Yes, my short few months with these witnesses makes me believe that the single, overwhelming obstacle to understanding they have is the "free will" idol of their hearts.  I never wanted to teach these guys, either.  I was sort of pressed into trying, simply to give a reason when pressed for one, when I was unwilling to agree with their studies from "What does the Bible Really Teach?"  It is amazing how that single deception makes the entire Bible read differently, isn't it?

I have two coworkers who are also JWs.  A good friend at my work, who sits less than 3m from me, and a senior executive (not in my management chain), who came on one of the JW visits.  I'm concerned how this will affect our relationship, when they discovers I'm now a goat.

Steve

[aqrinc]

Hi Steve,

Just say baaa baaa next time you see them if you are worried. Have no concern about
what anyone can do to injure you. We have to come to the point where we fear nothing
that carnal man can do to us. That may sound like bragging but Our Lord Has Said:

Genesis 15:1:
After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not,
Abram; I [am] thy shield, [and] thy exceeding great reward.

Daniel 10:12:
And he said unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst give thy heart
to understand and to afflict thy soul before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come
because of thy words.

Revelation:1: 17-18
17-And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying
unto me, Fear not; I AM the first and the last,

18-and he that lives and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen, and have the
keys of Hades and of death.

george.

[smeacham]

I opened the door to them because they were excellent and Godly counselors for what had happened with my daughter.  Their book "Questions Young People Ask" was a valuable resource at that stage in our family crisis, and will continue to be with our other children as they grow older.

I know that some on this board would caution not to open the door to them.  I follow that doctrine for false religions.  But, if we both believe that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and was resurrected, and seen by many witnesses (1 Corinthians 15:3-9), I will try to establish at least a minimal level of fellowship.  If we can disagree on other things without being disagreeable, then it can work out.  If not, as in this case, then we need to stop it.

By the way, I've spoken with my good JW friend at work, and she will remain my friend.  This gives me joy, and helps to counter much of the melancholy I was feeling.

Steve

[aqrinc]

Hi Steve,

I believe that door is the Door of your Mind (Heart - Seat of Understanding); that is addressed in cases like this.
Here are some Scriptures that speak to our minds and hearts.

Micah:7: 1-10
1-Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer [fruits], as the grapegleanings of the vintage: [there is] no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit.

2-The merciful [man] of the earth is missing: and [there is] no one upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt each man his brother with a net.

3-To complete the evil with their hands, the prince demands, and the judge [judges] for a reward; and the great [man] speaks the desires of his heart: and they confirm it.

4-The best of them [is] as a brier; the most upright [as] a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen, thy visitation, comes; now shall be their confusion.

5-Do not believe in a friend, do not trust in a prince; from her that lies at thy side, take care, open not thy mouth.

6-For the son dishonours the father, the daughter rises up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; and a man's enemies [are] those of his own house.

7-Therefore I will wait for the LORD; I will wait for the God of my saving health; my God will hear me.

8-Do not rejoice against me, O my enemy; for if I have fallen, I shall arise; if I sit in darkness, the LORD [is] my light.

9-I will bear the indignation of the LORD because I have sinned against him, until he has judged my cause and executed my judgment; he will bring me forth to the light, [and] I shall behold his righteousness.

10-Then [she that is] my enemy shall see [it], and shame shall cover her who said unto me, Where is the LORD thy God? my eyes shall behold her: now she shall be trodden down as the mire of the streets.

george.

[smeacham]

Wow, good comments, Rodger and George.  This is why I love this forum! 

George, I must admit, I'm not seeing the message you're trying to give me in the verses from Micah.  However, the revelation that "the door" is really the door to my mind/heart, just floored me!  Of course, you're correct, but that's part of my old understanding I hadn't overthrown yet.  Thank you so much, brother!  This eliminates some lingering guilt I was feeling, because I know that I never opened my heart to falsehood, only to truth.

Rodger, Jesus had carnal friends.  He'd have dinner with them.  He'd talk with them.  He loved them - consider Lazarus and John!  Yet, he did not love their carnality and He remained unstained by the world.  This is what I try to do.

Romans 12:16-18 "Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be conceited. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all."

Lowly and meek describes my JW friend at work and those who came to my home (until they decided to teach Watchtower doctrines).

Steve

[Dave in Tenn]

Steve, I'm glad this issue with your daughter has been resolved.  I don't have kids, but I was one and I know how far they can run without the constraining Grace of God.  I'm also happy that God used whatever means necessary to aide your family.

But I'm moved to share this with you.  There have been many things/events in my life that God has used to deliver a positive message to me at a time when I needed it.  Not all of them have been nearly so 'godly' as a book--pop songs, wet dreams, marijuana, and other things I'd be too humiliated to mention.  I hope you would agree with me that I ought not to stand up and declare that when future wisdom, councel, and comfort is needed that I should turn to them so they will continue to be with me as I grow older.

Balaam's donkey (can't type a@@ in the forum) spoke the words of God when nobody was around to do it.  As far as I know, nobody ever went to him again for a word from God, and if they had it could easily have turned into idolatry.  I'm thankful as are you that God used these things in our lives, but don't make plans that express limits on what God can do as your other children (and you) grow.

I don't know the first thing about this book.  It's not for me to know as I'm not the father in your family.  All I know is that it was useful.  I just want to encourage you to get and stay sensitive to the leading of God as he continues to work in you.

I'm sorry if I'm out of bounds.

[smeacham]

You're not out of bounds at all, Dave.  Though I love these forums, and support upholding the forum rules 100%, I do get irritated with how we sometimes take things too personally and take offense.  These things ought not be amongst the brethren.  I appreciate your concern, and your admonishment.

Certainly, we don't care to use the "What does the Bible really teach?" book.  Everything I've read in it is based on the false assumption of "free moral agency," and/or on peculiar JW interpretations of Daniel and Revelations.  I could literally write a book refuting just about every interpretation of scripture in some of the studies.  Ray could probably write a series.

However, the "Questions young people ask - answers that work" is pretty much ok.  Most of it is centered around God's commands for parent/child or elder/youngster relationships, moral living, making Godly choices, etc.  With these things, I find no fault.  It doesn't champion the things in the other book.  It takes us to scriptures that convict us of our own sin and show us God's righteous will.  I can't call this anything but good.

Perhaps I have an incorrect view of the Body of Christ, and if so, maybe somebody will show the correct one.  I see both JW's and I as being a part.  Perhaps one is a healthy foot and the other is a diseased appendix, with disagreement on which is which.  But when I think about it, we're both doing exactly what God wants us to do, always to accomplish His will.

Steve

[OBrenda]

Just had two friendly JW visit me at work.  They left me with "The secret of family happiness" book.  Almost brought up Ray Franz book that Samson shared with me, which brought me to tears...

One of them proudly claimed that what he most admired about the JW's was that they changed their positions when they find they have been in error!

Oh....I will pray for them!
Brenda

[smeacham]

In certain things they do.  The Watchtower itself will change positions on things when it decides it is wrong.  For example, they no longer applaud when someone who was disfellowshipped is restored to fellowship.  However, I'm not aware of them making any BIG changes to core doctrines.  They have changed the date and understanding of Christ's return several times, which may count. 

Steve

[Falconn003]

the ETA of Jesus is always a doozy.........

The Spiritual Truth is ::  If you are waiting for the return of Jesus, then you just missed him.

Rodger

[smeacham]

the ETA of Jesus is always a doozy.........

The Spiritual Truth is ::  If you are waiting for the return of Jesus, then you just missed him.

Rodger

I love it!

[Samson]

In certain things they do.  The Watchtower itself will change positions on things when it decides it is wrong.  For example, they no longer applaud when someone who was disfellowshipped is restored to fellowship.  However, I'm not aware of them making any BIG changes to core doctrines.  They have changed the date and understanding of Christ's return several times, which may count. 

Steve

Hi Steve,

             They usually change understandings on there position(s) after the fact, when already proven in error
             and when caught. As an illustration: Up until the late 1920's, they believed that the last days began
             in 1799 and that Armageddon would without a doubt take place in 1914 which included the end of all
             false Religion(including Christendom), also the end of all Nations, the thousand year reign of Christ, etc.

             Well after the fact that none of these predictions transpired(late 1920's), they changed the year 1914
             to mean The beginning of the last days. They believed the Saints(anointed ones, Elect) were Resuurrected
             to the Spiritual Realm or Heaven in 1878, later changed to 1918. In 1925 they believed that the Hebrew
             Patriarchs and Old Testament faithfull righteous ones would Physically resurrected as " Princes " back to
             the Earth. They actually built a house named Beth Sarim to accomodate Abraham, Isacc & Jacob with
             this in mind. They wrongly predicted that Armageddon & Christs Millenium Reign would take place in the
             mid 1970's( 1975 strongly implied). As a side note; most of the JW current Baptized membership came
             after 1980. Most of the current membership are unaware of these things. Up until the 1920's, they
             interpreted the Superior Authorities(Higher Powers) mentioned at Romans. Chapter 13 as the Worldly
             Governments and subjection to them was a relative subjection and if there was a conflict between Gods
             Authority and the Governments, we must obey God as ruler rather than Man. This understanding is the
             correct one. In the late 1920's into the early 1930's they changed this understanding at Romans chapter
             13 to mean God and Christ as the Superior Authorities. They held this belief until 1962 and changed it
             back to there original understanding.

             I am not allowed to Post a Web-Site, according to forum rules that more fully explains the above. What
             present to you is just a miniscule amount of factual information. I spent much research, before Disassociating
             myself and for two years after. Insofar as I'm concerned, former Governing Body member Ray Franz
             is the top source of information. After reading his two books, I saw no bitterness or personal attach
             displayed in his writing approach, only facts with quotations from there own publications(WT PUB.).

             I could write a Book about this, but time does not permit. None of the above is meant to attach JW'S
             on a personal level, because many of them are very fine people, believing their Organization is God's
             exclusive channell(The Faithfull and Discreet Slave). There many false Date predictions exceeds 50 in
             amount, I just focused on the key ones. As is true of many Publications printed for our inquiry, there
             literature has " loaded statistics " to support ther position, this is especially true for the Blood Transfusion
             Policy. They usually present experiences that demonstrate cases where someone benefitted from
             refraining from a Transfusion, they won't mention the Hundreds of cases where people died from refusing
             Blood. They have Doctrinally flip flopped on so many teachings, it's incredible.

             They have changed there approach on Disfellowshipping too, not in a minor way. Have to leave for work,
             so I'm unable to expound on this at this time. I'm more than happy to give further details, if you would
             like to know the facts. If not, that's okay too. For my part, I'm glad to be free of there extremely
             Legalistic Approach to Christianity and would gladly help any of them that want factual details about
             there Organization.

                                         Kind Regards, Samson.

[aqrinc]

Hi Steve,

Not to belabor a point; you may say JW and Yourself as similar.

God Word Says:

Revelation of John 18:2:
He cried out in a powerful voice, "Fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen! She has become a home for
demons. She is a prison for every evil spirit, every unclean bird, and every unclean and hated beast.

george.

Perhaps I have an incorrect view of the Body of Christ, and if so, maybe somebody will show the correct one.  I see both JW's and I as being a part.  Perhaps one is a healthy foot and the other is a diseased appendix, with disagreement on which is which.  But when I think about it, we're both doing exactly what God wants us to do, always to accomplish His will.

Steve

[Beloved]

However, the "Questions young people ask - answers that work" is pretty much ok.  Most of it is centered around God's commands for parent/child or elder/youngster relationships, moral living, making Godly choices, etc.  With these things, I find no fault.  It doesn't champion the things in the other book.  It takes us to scriptures that convict us of our own sin and show us God's righteous will.  I can't call this anything but good.

Perhaps I have an incorrect view of the Body of Christ, and if so, maybe somebody will show the correct one.  I see both JW's and I as being a part.  Perhaps one is a healthy foot and the other is a diseased appendix, with disagreement on which is which.  But when I think about it, we're both doing exactly what God wants us to do, always to accomplish His will.

Steve

If you have read the book and like you said do not see any error in Christs doctrine then use it to help your children...on the other hand you seem to indicate you see error in the group....a little leaven will invade the whole lump

In regard to the foot and diseased appendix...in the field of medicine the latter has the potental to kill you.  In regard of the spiritual, it is time to know which is which if you intend to keep exposing your family to it.

The forum is not the place to bashing the spiritually blind, all of those who have come out of babylon have their own horror stories...some funny some sad....but all learning experieinces...


beloved

[smeacham]

I know better than to discount your Godly and wise counsel.  I am no more likely to convert to the JW religion than I am to any of the other harlot daughters of Mystery Babylon, which is NOT.  However, given my great respect for the spiritual discernment that I've found here, I'll cease and desist any attempts to further expose my loved ones to any of their material.  There may be danger here I'm unable to discern on my own at this time.

God bless you,
Steve

[indianabob]

To Steve and all my friends on the forum.

Just want to say that having read all the letters on this thread at one sitting, I find that I am benefitting from the exercise.  All of you have contributed to my growth and understanding about the JW's, as well as other groups of folks who are still in Christendom and may come out someday.  This thread illustrates I think the mature and loving way a few friends can discuss their personal experiences in a manner that helps each one.  Won't it be great to live in a society in which this way of discussing issues will be the norm.  I am greatly pleased.

Thanks to Samson, Beloved, George, Rodger, Dave, Brenda and specially Steve for sharing his testimony.